4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

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Jose Mojica

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 06, 2016 12:34 pm

Joshua Dredge wrote:From the Product Manager, on the first page of this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45698#p264834

Is the best official word.


Sadly, that was before NAB so I'm still angry :). I need a new, best official word. A video with Grant Petty would be nice.
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rick.lang

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 06, 2016 12:42 pm

A camera junkie needs a fix. And maybe you'll be happy with the camera that's "supposed to come out." But you know you really just want to get that MIA turret upgrade!

During at least one of the interviews at NAB 2016, a BMD representative did say they are still working on it. Not sure if that would qualify as the official announcement when I suspect you want a Grant Petty video or press release providing that reassurance. There are possibly two reasons the turret upgrade has not appeared yet and either reason makes the bitter pill of disappointment easier to swallow.

First, there is the minor issue of the user switchable global/rolling shutter. That little feature was probably mentioned more often at NAB 2015 than the turret upgrade. It may be that BMD is determined to make good on that promised feature and has delayed release of the turret upgrade until the user selectable shutter is good to go.

Second, you may have noticed, the URSA Mini 4.6K cameras that are getting all the love from BMD while your URSA is ignored comes with its own caveat emptor: buyer beware, your Mini 4.6K may be able to produce an image that is everything you have hoped or it may have "behaviour" issues such as a predominant magenta cast (easy to correct in post) or strong magenta corners (like a vignette that is difficult to correct) or an uneven colour cast (possibly near impossible to correct and definitely infeasible to correct).

When you pay your $2,000 USD for the turret upgrade, will having the user selectable shutter feel like a compensation for being ignored and will you start to feel a tinge of sympathy for all those loyal early adopters of the URSA Mini 4.6K that are now crying for redress?

The magenta issue is under investigation to identify all the causes and solutions for the three magenta strains that bug the Mini 4.6K. There are apparently many camera sensor copies that don't appear to have been infected so it stands to reason that there will be an explanation or solutions as quickly as possible. When your delayed turret upgrade is found to be free of the magenta infection, when your relief be compensation for a delay and will you sympathize with all those loyal early adopters who risked their all for you by being first over the wall?

The option of giving you less of a turret upgrade than what you expect has clearly been rejected by BMD so that the adage "good things come to those who wait" will once again be proven true.

I do hope your wait is nearly over, but understanding likely why you are waiting may help.


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Thomas Darlington

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 06, 2016 2:34 pm

The URSACam.com interview at NAB 2016 with Bob Caniglia, Sr. Regional Manager, Eastern North America at Blackmagic Design, had this in it:

- When asked about when we would be hearing about the 4.6k turret upgrade (~3:29) the reply was "We hope to have them out shortly ... but we have no ETA".

- When asked about Global Shutter support in the URSA 4.6K (~3:50) the reply was "Well it's the same sensor". While we all know that in theory the more robust framework for that sensor provided by the URSA could theoretically boost it enough to squeeze out the Global Shutter capability, this simple reply suggests that won't be the case.

Interview is on YouTube under the heading "2016 NAB interview with Blackmagic about Ursa mini and new products"
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 06, 2016 3:17 pm

rick.lang wrote:First, there is the minor issue of the user switchable global/rolling shutter. That little feature was probably mentioned more often at NAB 2015 than the turret upgrade. It may be that BMD is determined to make good on that promised feature and has delayed release of the turret upgrade until the user selectable shutter is good to go.


From what the rep told me, they're dropping the switchable global/rolling shutter for this sensor, so if it's coming back, it's going to be a 4.6K v2 or something. That's IF, I'm not saying that it's happening -- the BMD rep didn't say one way or another.
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Jose Mojica

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 06, 2016 4:54 pm

I think the main problem with Blackmagic is the lack of communication.

There are worse companies for sure. But I bet the RED customers who preordered the Raven appreciated when they got an email explaining the production issues they were having. The Digital Bolex took forever to ship, but they had frequent video updates. They still have monthly live streams in which customers can ask questions.

They don't have to give me the turret yet, just keep us updated. Believe me, as an independent contractor, the one lesson I learned early on is that the customer starts mistrusting you if you go hide somewhere to work on a problem and don't communicate. If you communicate often, then they accept the challenges you're facing more often than not.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 06, 2016 10:52 pm

No matter what I do not want a turret that has the issues that are present in the 4.6k mini.
I would rather keep what I have and purchase a different brand 4K to complement the big one.
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rick.lang

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4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 07, 2016 3:19 am

Rakesh, if that rep's comments are accurate, that might only leave the magenta family of issues holding up the turrets. But we already know there are Mini 4.6K cameras without magenta issues so it may be a simpler reason than magenta. They may want to ramp up production to fulfill their Mini preorders and when that is done then switch production lines to the turret upgrades and URSA 4.6K camera preorders. The URSA Mini 4.6K probably had more preorders than they estimated and they may not have committed sufficient production line capacity to do both Mini and URSA concurrently so the Mini won the coin toss based on numbers.

Just speculation on my part trying to rationalize the lack of turrets and URSA 4.6K cameras. If BMD chooses to provide another update, then I'll shut up about it!


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Rakesh Malik

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 07, 2016 3:42 am

I think you're spot on, Rick -- though that's just my hypothesis. BMD is VERY far behind on the Ursa Minis whose demand appears to have far outstripped that of the Ursa, and they're starting very far behind schedule on delivering the Ursa Minis. The issues they're having are probably slowing up production and delivery.
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PaulDelVecchio

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 07, 2016 4:31 am

Also, the software needs to be written for the Ursa with the new sensor. I have a feeling they'll release the turrets after the OS upgrade for the mini. What's the point in writing software for the Ursa, releasing the 4.6k turret, then modifying the new OS to work with Ursa. They'll probably release the turret with the new OS sometime after the new OS drops for the mini. In the meantime they'll catch up on mini 4.6k orders.

Plus there was also talk about getting the global shutter to work. Something about it being easier on the turret upgrades.

It'll probably be some time before we get the turrets.
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Daniel DarkSide

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 16, 2016 7:36 pm

Nope according to the BM website we will be getting our 4.6k turret in march :D :| :? :cry: wait is that next year............. i'm still trying to play it cool and not crying.......
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 17, 2016 9:54 pm

Just a random thought which I think I know the answer too- will the 4K v2 sensor ever be available as a spare part?

I think I already know the answer but with no end in sight for the turret upgrade I am having to seriously consider selling on, which I really really don't want to do because I will have lost a ton of money on the evf, shoulder kit, v mount, cfast, Peli case etc...
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4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 18, 2016 4:10 am

Having a 4KV2 turret upgrade isn't so far fetched as not everyone who bought the original URSA 4K is looking for the 4.6K turret upgrade. Once you've mastered how to get the most out of the 4K, the upgrade could be most welcome. So good to have HFR paired with a global shutter.


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Jose Mojica

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 20, 2016 10:18 am

Well, I just lost 16.32lbs and I'm sad because it could've been avoided with some more communication from BM. (I sold my URSA.) I also wonder if the problems with the magenta sensors and the mini could have been minimized if they had done as promised and released the sensor for the URSA first. I think it would be easier to replace some turrets than whole cameras, but who knows. It's off to that company named after a primary color and a camera named after a bird.

BM can learn a few things from that company. Yes, they are expensive, but from the time I pre-ordered I had a person assigned to me to answer questions who is very responsive. In fact the person already adviced me as to when it would be best to schedule a shoot based on when I was likely to get my camera. Two, if BM had used their model for upgrades they would have announced the mini with the same sensor as the URSA first, last year, and released it right away. Then announced the new 4.6K sensor this year and released it first for the turret, then release a new mini with the new sensor, possibly next year. That would've saved a lot of headaches, I think. In other words, don't try to release all at once. Focus on a new body first, then a new sensor for existing body, and so on.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 20, 2016 3:57 pm

I was tempted to sell mine also. But decided I really like the 4K sensor. Mostly the skin tones and other features like the 10" monitor. The 4.6K Turret not being released 1st was disappointing. But it didn't make this camera unusable for me. If they ever release it and the skin tones look good I will probably upgrade to get the better dynamic range.
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4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 20, 2016 4:48 pm

Tick-tock was one approach strongly favoured by Intel, but it didn't save them from a major fail to deliver Broadwell on time. So yes, it may help BMD by slowing things down and giving each project more development time (and presumably more time for QC), but no guarantees.


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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 20, 2016 5:04 pm

rick.lang wrote:Tick-tock is one approach strongly favoured by Intel, but it didn't save them from a major fail to deliver Broadwell on time. So yes, it may help BMD by slowing things down and giving each project more development time (and presumably more time for QC), but no guarantees.


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Rick, from what I've seen and experienced BM's camera development group needs to follow basic project management. I'm a big fan of hi-velocity development, but it must be done with some common sense, otherwise you get a half baked product, as we've seen evidenced with the 4.6K.

Not sure it makes sense to compare Intel's problems with BMs. Intel is running up against hard physics whereas BM is simply trying to reproduce what's been done by others, albeit at a lower price.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 20, 2016 5:52 pm

rick.lang wrote:Tick-tock is one approach strongly favoured by Intel, but it didn't save them from a major fail to deliver Broadwell on time. So yes, it may help BMD by slowing things down and giving each project more development time (and presumably more time for QC), but no guarantees.


Intel is abandoning tick-tock.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 21, 2016 2:39 am

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Not sure it makes sense to compare Intel's problems with BMs. Intel is running up against hard physics whereas BM is simply trying to reproduce what's been done by others, albeit at a lower price.

Anyone familiar with camera design will know it's not "simple" and definitely not a case of just reproducing what others have done. There are a ton of patents involved that can be infringed so there very much needs to be invention and innovation or law suits will come (look at Red and Sony etc).

Not only that, who else had tried to making a global/rolling switchable camera before them? Who else had done RAW and ProRes INTERNAL recording on a camera before them (at any price)? Who else has 12G on a camera for 4K60fps out a single SDI? Who else has internal RAW and ProRes in a form factor as small as the Pocket Camera or Micro Cinema? There are a lot of firsts coming from BM with their cameras, it's not just pricing.

Are they perfect? No. There's lots I'd like to see change. But you have to give credit where it's due as well.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 21, 2016 12:55 pm

Steven Abrams wrote:
Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Not sure it makes sense to compare Intel's problems with BMs. Intel is running up against hard physics whereas BM is simply trying to reproduce what's been done by others, albeit at a lower price.

Anyone familiar with camera design will know it's not "simple" and definitely not a case of just reproducing what others have done. There are a ton of patents involved that can be infringed so there very much needs to be invention and innovation or law suits will come (look at Red and Sony etc).

Not only that, who else had tried to making a global/rolling switchable camera before them? Who else had done RAW and ProRes INTERNAL recording on a camera before them (at any price)? Who else has 12G on a camera for 4K60fps out a single SDI? Who else has internal RAW and ProRes in a form factor as small as the Pocket Camera or Micro Cinema? There are a lot of firsts coming from BM with their cameras, it's not just pricing.

Are they perfect? No. There's lots I'd like to see change. But you have to give credit where it's due as well.


Like I said, can't compare Intel's problems with BM's problems. Intel is coming up against hard physics, BM is simply trying to reproduce what's been done before.

Never said it was easy, at least for BM it apparently is not. As for the global/rolling shutter feature, BM didn't invent it, they are simply trying to implement a feature available from a sensor manufacturer who has been making scientific cameras with that feature for some time. They didn't invent any of the features you list. They are simply trying to reproduce them.

I'd also point out that all of the features you've mentioned are not firsts. They have been implemented in one or more cameras, in one way or another, before. BM, to it's credit, has tried to incorporate all those features in one camera, and failed. They get a slap on the back for trying, but not for failing. Not sure they would want that kind of praise for failing, I know I wouldn't.

This is why they should never announce a camera until it's done. Because in the technical field, there is always the chance of failure, but in the business field you only want your successes to be shown in public. Also in the business field, it is just crazy to release a boomerang product. BM is Australian, they should know this.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 21, 2016 2:17 pm

I agree with Gene, BM hasn't been first at all those things. I believe the Arri Alexa was first to do Raw and ProRes recording internally, but I've never worked with one, so I'm not sure. BM may have been first to do all those things at an affordable price, and I am thankful for that, but it has come at a cost to us as well.

I've had problems with all their cameras so far, except maybe the pocket cinema. Let's forget about the fact that they didn't ship until a year after the products were announced. I had two of the original BMCCs and had to return both of them because of sensor issues: flickering issues. One of them I had to return twice. Then I got the URSA, great camera, as long as you don't aim it at a light source or underexpose anything. Not so bad, but here comes the mini 4.6K. I'm really afraid of buying one. How many times will I have to return it before I can find one without magenta issues? And the response from BM is that they think it only happens with certain lenses and only when people shoot at F8 or smaller appertures. They're saying that it may be fixable with firmware. Sure, and when is that going to be released, in another year? And this is not even a public statement, this is what they say when you try to return one.

...And still, I would forgive them if they would only COMMUNICATE. Send an email every month telling people what you're doing. Simple. Update your delivey dates. That's all I needed.

So they have affordable cameras but I think at this point I would pay double to have something that just works.
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Lee Jackson

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 21, 2016 8:39 pm

The good old betacam days!!

I don't ever hearing about any of those cameras having issues back then. definitely not any of mine.
Those units were rock solid workhorses. pretty much across the industry. The pro 20 lb mini dv's were solid too. I actually have three of them left and the just work with no issues. And they have a ton of use on them. TEN TONS.

It seems that the newer stuff just does not have the same bullet proof performance capability as what i am used to.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 21, 2016 9:30 pm

Yes, the old cameras were well built, but not bullet proof, the original DCX 1/2 ENG cameras had an internal boot battery, that had to be replaced by a service tech. So they had a built in time clock wich ended in 8-10 years. DVCam was good also, but even Betacam can not meet the current resolution standards of a DVX200 HD camcorder. Time marches on...
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Steven Abrams

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 21, 2016 10:41 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:I'd also point out that all of the features you've mentioned are not firsts. They have been implemented in one or more cameras, in one way or another, before.

No. Give me one example of one where another camera had one thing I listed before BM did. Some of them you still only can find on a BM camera.

Jose Mojica wrote:I agree with Gene, BM hasn't been first at all those things. I believe the Arri Alexa was first to do Raw and ProRes recording internally, but I've never worked with one, so I'm not sure. BM may have been first to do all those things at an affordable price, and I am thankful for that, but it has come at a cost to us as well.

The Alexa didn't get internal RAW until Feb 2013, I had my Cinema Camera with internal RAW in Dec 2012. So still, BM first to have both internal ProRes and RAW.

Again, some of what I listed above is still unique to BM to this day, but please also show me evidence that anyone else did any of those things before BM.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun May 22, 2016 12:13 am

Steven Abrams wrote:
Gene Kochanowsky wrote:I'd also point out that all of the features you've mentioned are not firsts. They have been implemented in one or more cameras, in one way or another, before.

No. Give me one example of one where another camera had one thing I listed before BM did. Some of them you still only can find on a BM camera.

Jose Mojica wrote:I agree with Gene, BM hasn't been first at all those things. I believe the Arri Alexa was first to do Raw and ProRes recording internally, but I've never worked with one, so I'm not sure. BM may have been first to do all those things at an affordable price, and I am thankful for that, but it has come at a cost to us as well.

The Alexa didn't get internal RAW until Feb 2013, I had my Cinema Camera with internal RAW in Dec 2012. So still, BM first to have both internal ProRes and RAW.

Again, some of what I listed above is still unique to BM to this day, but please also show me evidence that anyone else did any of those things before BM.


Steven, what about Magic Lantern?

Arri Alexa, both raw and prores in 2010. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arri_Alexa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_ProRes
As of June 2011, several hardware-based ProRes encoders exist, from AJA[13] (IO HD FireWire 800 interface; Ki Pro and Ki Pro Mini portable recorders, Ki Pro Rack and Ki Pro Ultra for 4K/UltraHD workflows), Atomos[14] (Ninja and Samurai recorders), Sound Devices (PIX series recorders), Convergent Designs (Odyssey7, 7Q, 7Q+), and Fast Forward Video[15]


And of course Apple had prores before anybody, it's not as if BM invented it.

Steven, I applaud BM for trying. Not too crazy about them failing. And they are probably not too happy about it either.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun May 22, 2016 7:31 am

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Arri Alexa, both raw and prores in 2010. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arri_Alexa


The Alexa needed an external recorder (Codex or Gemini) for RAW until the Alexa XT came out in 2013. Internally, until then, it could only record up to 2K ProRes4444.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun May 22, 2016 7:50 am

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Steven, what about Magic Lantern?

Arri Alexa, both raw and prores in 2010. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arri_Alexa

Maybe I'm not being specific enough, but Magic Lantern was only RAW internally, and Alexa was only ProRes internally until 2013 as I said and Mike also.

BM had the first camera to record both ProRes and RAW internally that I know of. It was a first. One of many.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun May 22, 2016 3:58 pm

Steven Abrams wrote:
Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Steven, what about Magic Lantern?

Arri Alexa, both raw and prores in 2010. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arri_Alexa

Maybe I'm not being specific enough, but Magic Lantern was only RAW internally, and Alexa was only ProRes internally until 2013 as I said and Mike also.

BM had the first camera to record both ProRes and RAW internally that I know of. It was a first. One of many.


You are splitting hairs because you want to exclude the Arri because it is a component based system. They showed it could be done, all BM did was the packaging and price point. Not insignificant, but not the same as a commercial proof of concept. From it BM knew that in principle it could be done. Their contribution was making it affordable.

My point was about BM's technical problems. We will see how their current debacle shakes out in their business.

There is no doubt that BM blazed a trail, but now other companies are following. They have competition. If they are gonna stay in the camera business they need to execute with far fewer problems then they were able to get away with in the past.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 23, 2016 7:39 am

I ordered my 4.6K turret upgrade 14th. April, 2015. At that time I heard that Grant Petty had made a statement that a number of turret-upgrades were being reserved for then "current" and meanwhile "loyal" URSA users! Then came the MiniURSA and the development problems started to seep through. It appears to me that Blackmagic are having two problems.
Hardware: The URSA is built to last. The sensor cooling drops the noise level so that with RAW post-production black levels can be handled really well even compared to the Prod. Camera 4K with the same sensor as the URSA 4K. Blackmagic promised that users could upgrade the camera turret and sensor themselves as future sensor developments were made available. This is one main reason for buyers to adopt the camera in the early days of its release. The manual contained detailed instructions with photos for the upgrade process. (I optimistically bought a torque screwdriver for this explicit task!)
Now it would seem that either the upgrade process is more complicated than published or that the URSA body also requires adaptation. If this is going to mean sending the URSA to Blackmagic for the upgrade then I would suggest after more than 57 weeks waiting for my upgrade kit to arrive that BM first send out a working URSA 4.6K and include a paid return for the original URSA.
Software: Here the problem appears to lie with trade-offs in the sensor scanning. Hence the two versions of the MiniURSA 4.6K with/without global shutter. My personal, traditionalist preference is for the global shutter which was also a deciding factor for my original URSA purchase. This might also be an area where the URSA body electronics might need replacement? (Reading a lot between the lines here - but, hey, BM, no news at all leads to speculation!)
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 23, 2016 10:58 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:You are splitting hairs because you want to exclude the Arri because it is a component based system. They showed it could be done, all BM did was the packaging and price point. Not insignificant, but not the same as a commercial proof of concept. From it BM knew that in principle it could be done. Their contribution was making it affordable.


It's not splitting hairs. The Alexa as it existed prior to 2013 could not record ARRIRAW internally. It was impossible. Arri announced and released the Alexa XT (a different Alexa camera model with different pricing and everything) in 2013 that could record ARRIRAW internally. The Alexa XT records to Codex datapacks, whereas the original Alexa recorded to SxS cards. It's a different camera model. Older Alexas could be upgraded to the XT, which required replacing hardware components in the camera. Personally, most full-size Alexas (meaning not the Alexa Mini) I come across on set are still unable to record ARRIRAW internally because they were never upgraded.

Arri does not manufacture the Codex recorder or the Datapacks, for internal or external ARRIRAW recording. Those are made by Codex. Arri just has an agreement and arrangement with Codex. Even the software to read the Codex virtual file system is Codex software, licensed by Codex, and not made, licensed, or sold by Arri.

The other ARRIRAW recorder is the Gemini, which, along with the certified Gemini media, is manufactured by Convergent Design and only licensed by Arri to record ARRIRAW. Arri has nothing to do with the manufacturing of the Gemini or the media for the Gemini.

Think of it like an Atomos recorder connected to a GH4. The GH4 can't record ProRes internally, but the Atomos can. That doesn't mean you give Panasonic credit for the first m4/3 DSLR to record internal ProRes, even though they might be able to if they wanted to.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 24, 2016 12:05 am

Mike, you are making my point. All this was done before. All BM did was integrate it.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 24, 2016 12:13 am

I really can't understand why they've gone dark. I remember for the BMCC, when they were running late, Grant Petty sent out an email telling people what was causing the delays. Also, if I recall correctly, the camera shipped with all of the promised features. When the BMPC was running late, Grant Petty sent out another email, letting people know what was causing the delays. I think that time the camera shipped without RAW but was later added in a firmware upgrade. All of the other features were delivered as promised. But last year, everything went downhill. No explanation for the delays, no sign of the turret upgrade. I fear that Paul is right and maybe the hardware is just not as upgradable as they thought. Plus, the Mini shipped without a key feature Global/Shutter switch and a magenta issue. I also think it's missing two other promised features: gyroscope and GPS, but I don't have a Mini, maybe someone can verify. There's no mention at all of the URSA during NAB either. If BM is still confident it's an upgradable camera, why not reinforce that they have two cameras: one upgradable and one not?
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 24, 2016 1:37 am

Kristian Lam wrote:
VicHarris wrote:I've been a very loyal BM customer for some time now, owning 5 of your cameras. I purchased an URSA V1 after the promise of the customer loyalty pledge we were given to receive priority on the 4.6K sensor. I understand delays and whatnot but this is pretty *******. I sunk thousands because of your promise. This isn't like a preorder that I cancel and I lose nothing.

You're move BM.


Hi VicHarris,

Totally understand your frustration. If we could make it quicker, we would. It's not as simple as choosing whether the sensor goes into URSA Mini or the URSA turret. There's still engineering work involved.



It's still upgradable and it's still happening. THIS is the thing. There's engineering work involved obviously, and there's software to write. You can't just copy and paste the code into the Ursa and it'll work. They prioritized the Mini, and now they have to get it working in the big Ursa.

Yes, it sucks. We were told we (Ursa adopters) would get the Ursa turret first, and now we're waiting, but that's not an indication of the Ursa not being able to be upgraded. It just takes time. Whether you want to wait it out or not is a different story.

Clearly the Mini is the priority, and they're attempting to do something about the uneven magenta issue, so I'm assuming that takes priority as well, plus there's the software upgrade coming in the summer. It doesn't make sense for BMD to get the turret working and then have to update the software again to the newer version (again, it's not cutting and pasting code) so I think it's safe to say that we're not getting the turret any time before August. But that's just a guess. Who knows.

Yes, it's a huge let down. It sucks. Waiting sucks. I think we'll definitely get the turret upgrade... just not for a few months.

And again, whether or not people will wait... well....
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 24, 2016 7:05 pm

PaulDelVecchio wrote:
Kristian Lam wrote:
VicHarris wrote:I've been a very loyal BM customer for some time now, owning 5 of your cameras. I purchased an URSA V1 after the promise of the customer loyalty pledge we were given to receive priority on the 4.6K sensor. I understand delays and whatnot but this is pretty *******. I sunk thousands because of your promise. This isn't like a preorder that I cancel and I lose nothing.

You're move BM.


Hi VicHarris,

Totally understand your frustration. If we could make it quicker, we would. It's not as simple as choosing whether the sensor goes into URSA Mini or the URSA turret. There's still engineering work involved.



It's still upgradable and it's still happening. THIS is the thing. There's engineering work involved obviously, and there's software to write. You can't just copy and paste the code into the Ursa and it'll work. They prioritized the Mini, and now they have to get it working in the big Ursa.

Yes, it sucks. We were told we (Ursa adopters) would get the Ursa turret first, and now we're waiting, but that's not an indication of the Ursa not being able to be upgraded. It just takes time. Whether you want to wait it out or not is a different story.

Clearly the Mini is the priority, and they're attempting to do something about the uneven magenta issue, so I'm assuming that takes priority as well, plus there's the software upgrade coming in the summer. It doesn't make sense for BMD to get the turret working and then have to update the software again to the newer version (again, it's not cutting and pasting code) so I think it's safe to say that we're not getting the turret any time before August. But that's just a guess. Who knows.

Yes, it's a huge let down. It sucks. Waiting sucks. I think we'll definitely get the turret upgrade... just not for a few months.

And again, whether or not people will wait... well....



So hopefully this doesn't come off harsh due to the internet and all but are you talking to me Paul?

Just wondering because I never mentioned anything you talk about in your response to my post. It's odd. Not upgradable? huh?

Also, I've been around long enough to understand you just can't slap a sensor on a different camera and expect it to work just like that. My first job in the military was actually in electrical engineering and repair though we were learning on 30 year old systems so there's that :/ Might want to reread what I wrote to understand my angle or maybe we're both talking about 2 different things here.
Last edited by VicHarris on Tue May 24, 2016 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 24, 2016 9:10 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Mike, you are making my point. All this was done before. All BM did was integrate it.

I'm not sure why you're being so obtuse, but no one had both working in a camera before BM at any price. Therefore it was a first by definition. The same with the other points I listed. Some are still unique to a camera.

Your argument is the equivalent to 'the wheel and combustion engine were already invented, all they did was integrate them to create the car'. It totally lacks any appreciation of the engineering issues, development, and invention/innovation needed to actually integrate them.

Ya know, rockets and humans were already around. All Nasa did was integrate them and send them to the moon. :lol: :roll:
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 24, 2016 9:11 pm

VicHarris wrote:So hopefully this doesn't come off harsh do to the internet but are you talking to me Paul?

Looks like Paul was just quoting Kristian's response to you to remind the others it's still in development.
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PaulDelVecchio

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 25, 2016 4:53 am

Steven Abrams wrote:
VicHarris wrote:So hopefully this doesn't come off harsh do to the internet but are you talking to me Paul?

Looks like Paul was just quoting Kristian's response to you to remind the others it's still in development.


Yes, that's exactly what I was doing. Many people (not Vic) were saying BMD hasn't mentioned anything on upgrading the turret and people were starting to say it might not be possible but the response is right there. That wasn't targeted at you, Vic.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 25, 2016 1:17 pm

Steven Abrams wrote:
Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Mike, you are making my point. All this was done before. All BM did was integrate it.

I'm not sure why you're being so obtuse, but no one had both working in a camera before BM at any price. Therefore it was a first by definition. The same with the other points I listed. Some are still unique to a camera.

Your argument is the equivalent to 'the wheel and combustion engine were already invented, all they did was integrate them to create the car'. It totally lacks any appreciation of the engineering issues, development, and invention/innovation needed to actually integrate them.

Ya know, rockets and humans were already around. All Nasa did was integrate them and send them to the moon. :lol: :roll:


Yes, I give BM credit for doing a better job of integrating them, not the idea it self.
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Gavin_c_clark

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Jun 17, 2016 5:39 am

Haven't been on for a while- have I missed any news?

Or is our loyalty still being rewarded?
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Jun 17, 2016 6:21 am

I know, I sound like a broken record, but that's exactly why I only buy stuff, that I can rent (aka: after it physically hits the shelves) and test, before I actually buy it. I know, that's pretty old school in 2016, where you can order everything from the net, but at least I don't have to wait on anything.
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Set your zebras to 100%, ETTR and you're golden - and NO, you can't use TB as output for an external monitor, and you can't download the footy via TB ether.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Jun 17, 2016 4:12 pm

I finally had to accept that the 4.6k Sensor is going to be out of reach for some time. I dropped my preorder for the URSA 4.6k and went with a 4K shipping now and a 4.6k turret preorder. The rep stated that 4.6k URSAs were shipping to people who preordered in August but he could be confused.

On a related note, I plead with BM and other manufacturers to give their cameras unambiguously distinct names in the future. I can't tell you how many times I've been given a quote for the Mini after asking for the URSA. And then there's the whole v1 and v2 4K sensor business. Ordering this camera is a wee bit of a mess.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Jun 17, 2016 7:19 pm

Probably meant mini 4.6k is shipping. I don't think the URSA 4.6K is shipping yet.

Thomas Darlington wrote:I finally had to accept that the 4.6k Sensor is going to be out of reach for some time. I dropped my preorder for the URSA 4.6k and went with a 4K shipping now and a 4.6k turret preorder. The rep stated that 4.6k URSAs were shipping to people who preordered in August but he could be confused.

On a related note, I plead with BM and other manufacturers to give their cameras unambiguously distinct names in the future. I can't tell you how many times I've been given a quote for the Mini after asking for the URSA. And then there's the whole v1 and v2 4K sensor business. Ordering this camera is a wee bit of a mess.
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Gavin_c_clark

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Jun 19, 2016 7:34 pm

According to the product page it's now shipping in Q4....
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Jun 19, 2016 11:10 pm

Gavin_c_clark wrote:According to the product page it's now shipping in Q4....


Wow. What a HUGE disappointment.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Jun 20, 2016 1:50 am

That's what I thought... Then did some googling- Q4 Australian time ends June 30th

Us or Uk and then yeah... Massive let down

But it would be nice to get some kind of reassurance from a company that's kept us hanging for almost 15 months now
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Jun 20, 2016 1:58 am

Gavin_c_clark wrote:That's what I thought... Then did some googling- Q4 Australian time ends June 30th

Us or Uk and then yeah... Massive let down

But it would be nice to get some kind of reassurance from a company that's kept us hanging for almost 15 months now


Frankly, at this point, I have no idea what that reassurance could possibly be? The only thing BM can do, that would be credible, is ship the promised product. Anything else is just more of the same.
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PaulDelVecchio

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Jun 20, 2016 3:20 am

Gavin_c_clark wrote:That's what I thought... Then did some googling- Q4 Australian time ends June 30th

Us or Uk and then yeah... Massive let down

But it would be nice to get some kind of reassurance from a company that's kept us hanging for almost 15 months now


It's Q4 US. It's always been by US time standards, so it'll be during the winter here in the US. Definitely a huge letdown. Oh well.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Jun 20, 2016 6:01 am

I would say I'm surprised, but unfortunately that's what I've come to expect from blackmagic. And no respect to level with their customers- that's the bit I can't get my head around.

Major bummer
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Jun 20, 2016 6:09 am

yeah bummer... again.... on the other hand, they would be out of their minds if they release another product with unsolved magenta sensor problems, who would buy it now aniways as long as this is not solved. I had wished for them to succeed..... but its a sad story now.
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Jun 20, 2016 4:42 pm

At LEAST it's going to happen. That's all that matters for me. Thanx for not letting URSA buyers down at the end!!! For a while I was really worried the "real" URSA would be discontinued. AND the URSA product page still says global shutter. So who knows if the global will work for the big one.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Sep 13, 2016 2:21 pm

Have I missed something?

This reseller is listing it as in stock

https://www.tnpbroadcast.co.uk/blackmag ... ade-p8057#
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