4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

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thomas bruegger

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 4:07 pm

Oh my... cant they at least say something official?
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Gavin_c_clark

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 4:21 pm

This is the box for my Ursa. There are scant few words to describe what's inside.
The words chosen- 'the worlds first user upgradable 4k digital film camera with a built in 10" monitor' were chosen to be on the box because they're the USP of the camera.

It's why I bought mine. Over two years ago. There are numerous consumer protection laws in most countries to protect against miss selling like this.

Blackmagic. Please make right your wrongs
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 4:35 pm

Gavin_c_clark wrote:The words chosen- 'the worlds first user upgradable 4k digital film camera with a built in 10" monitor' were chosen to be on the box because they're the USP of the camera.


Blackmagic! There is now way out of this! The turret needs to happen! The UMP loyalty upgrade is not changing anything, even if everybody goes for it. It doesn't mean people are ok with another camera that doesn't have the specs of the ursa major 4.6K... People bought the URSA for what it was promoted for.

And!!! why are you calling the ursa mini pro - PRO??? is that another trick to distract people from the ursa turret upgrade they wanted? Because that camera should be called ursa mini B, or ursa mini Broad, or ursa mini BROADCAST. Its NOTHING BUT NOTHING BUT NOTHING like the ursa major with the 4.6K turret. The specs don't even come close.
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rick.lang

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 5:43 pm

Stuart Ashton's voice and skin colour was a lot more steady in that interview. In previous interviews his voice can crack or suddenly change pitch and that can indicate some discomfort with what he was trying to say. He's much more comfortable now, but not 100% at ease as evidenced by the occasional grammatical error or awkward language used.

I think this all indicates BMD is well aware of all the issues raised lately and simply are not at a juncture in which they can publicly announce their conclusions. Unfortunately that means a little more patience, and certainly do let BMD know what you want.



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Brian Gulliver

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 6:02 pm

I think part of the delay is they are stealing the URSA Mini Pro's interchangeable mount. Then you would not need a separate turret for B4 or Cannon or PL and there could be a HDMI connection (to replace original DSLR Record deck turret) and Lens control connection on the turret to eliminate the need for 7 different turret mounts but have the same functionality of 7 mounts in one turret.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 6:18 pm

rick.lang wrote:Stuart Ashton's voice and skin colour was a lot more steady in that interview.

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Don't think you can go by the skin anymore esp with the resolve 14:-)

I'm with Brian and hoping for a one turret to rule them all.

If not I'll pick up a discounted bmpc 4k which I'll use as a second/gimbal camera. And wait for the ursa major pro in acouple of years.

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rick.lang

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4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 9:28 pm

Ha, Ben! And Stuart's voice inflexions were fixed in Resolve 14's new Audio tab (Fairlight Magic)!

An URSA Pro might happen next year. There have been occasions lately where I could have used the URSA with its audio station and camera assistant station when I've had a crew. The concept is good, but the Pro will hopefully be magnesium alloy to shed at least five pounds of weight.

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robertmanningjr

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 10:20 pm

Maybe the Federal Trade Commission can get an answer:

"Getting Refunds for Consumers
The FTC sues companies that make deceptive claims about their products or services. These lawsuits sometimes result in refunds for the people affected. Want more information about the FTC’s refunds program? Take a look at recent FTC cases that resulted in refunds."
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 10:29 pm

robertmanningjr wrote:Maybe the Federal Trade Commission can get an answer:

"Getting Refunds for Consumers
The FTC sues companies that make deceptive claims about their products or services. These lawsuits sometimes result in refunds for the people affected. Want more information about the FTC’s refunds program? Take a look at recent FTC cases that resulted in refunds."


Interesting... I HOPE it will not come down to this!!!
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 3:00 am

Just chiming in here,
I can't make it to NAB so if any BMD people look at this, I really really really wanted the 4.6 turret.
I bought big Ursa used, so no upgrade for me.
But I DID buy it, and 100% bought it planning to upgrade.
I currently own 3 BMD cameras, used to have 4, but I sold the Pocket after BMD refused to fix it.

I'm completely happy with the size/weight/ergonomics of Big Ursa, really like the global shutter. It's been a great camera, but I really want useable 800/1600 iso, that's really all I want.
I'm in a small community, but I am the guy that's been "promoting" Blackmagic cameras here and everywhere I go.
I'm probably going to sell all my BMD cameras and go get a couple of GH5's. I feel BMD has had plenty of time to make the 4.6 turret work or at least let us know they can't.
I don't feel BMD has been straight with us, and now it feels like they're trying to sneak out of this.
Just my 2 cents, thanks.
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Mattias Kristiansson

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 8:11 am

I really can't understand the lack of communication on this issue.

If the 4,6K sensor can't be adapted to work with the big URSA, it's sad, of course. I do, however, understand that technology is technology and some things just aren't reasonable to do from a technical standpoint, but why pretend for so long and then just remove the URSA from the website without a comment about it?

Honesty would build more trust than just staying silent.
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Iain Philpott

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 9:48 am

So I notice now that the URSA has been removed from the BM website. Mini Pro now the only 'cinema' camera available. Even Ursa Mini has gone??????
When BM made the Mini Pro upgrade offer I decided to take it up after much thought. 15 months on from my V2 purchase I feared the turret upgrade was going to take much longer than BM (or I) thought it would and figured it was a viable stop gap solution until it arrived. I felt the offer was a very good gesture by BM to compensate all of us for the time delay, who bought into the 'upgrade' pathway that, overall, had worked pretty well for RED.
Don't get me wrong, I still love my URSA v2, but if the 4.6 turret never arrives I want to make it absolutely clear I would never have originally bought it. I'm sure there are many people like me. BM did not have the best track record with product reliability (in fact even though I waited to buy a v2 I still sent back 3 cameras before I was happy with one). I bought into the 'upgradability'.

At the time of taking up the 'Mini Pro' offer the turret was still on the table (Grant's video press release for the UMP). There was no indication that the turret would not come, only that it was proving more difficult than they had thought. So with that in mind I, and many others, took the goodwill gesture.

While nothing official has been announced, the rumour mill is rife. BM need to come out with an update. Is the turret still work in progress or is it dead.

I do hope it's not as I'm not sure what I do or what happens if the turret is dead?

The irony of the situation! I bought URSA Major v2 because it was upgradeable and and I've been persuaded to part with more money for another camera while I wait for the late upgrade. An upgrade that would match the sensors in both cameras.......... but might now never happen! Suckered again! Has anyone shot with both v2 and UMP as to how close you can match them?
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 12:16 pm

If this is the upgrade path, the upgrade should be as follows:

You send in your ursa major and get:
• ursa mini pro
• You get an additional 5 inch monitor
• You get an additional 7 inch monitor
• You get a free battery backplate - EVERYBODY bought that.
• and pay 2000$ => the turret price

In fact its still not the same, because the GLOBAL SHUTTER is gone and the FRAME RATE is not there
so you should get another 1000$ off or get a free viewfinder - and im still not 100$ sure if id take it, because the 120 fps were IMPORTANT.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 12:53 pm

Iain Philpott wrote:While nothing official has been announced, the rumour mill is rife. BM need to come out with an update. Is the turret still work in progress or is it dead.?


I spoke to Blackmagic's Australian distributor today to get the process underway. They confirmed that the URSA itself has been discontinued and removed from all pricelists. The turret has not been, and is still available to order, though he gave the impression that it was dead in the water.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 1:55 pm

Iain Philpott wrote:Has anyone shot with both v2 and UMP as to how close you can match them


I own the URSA, Mini 4K, and 4.6K Mini Pro. I've also owned 2x 4K Production Cameras, the Pocket Camera, and the Micro Cinema Camera.

For commercials needing two cameras, I usually pair the URSA with the 4K Mini for a consistent look, reliability and professionalism. Each sensor has its own look and quirks and while they can be matched I usually don't if I don't have to. There is a headache involved in matching any 2 sensors and editors I've worked with have complained about others doing it within the same scene so I don't do it on paid jobs where I hand it off to someone else. That's not to say it couldn't work if you are working on your own project or have more control in post.

I did buy the Micro Camera not so much for gimbal use but for the extra dynamic range over the Production Camera and as interesting super16 option. Having to spend a couple thousand on each camera for cage, evf mount, top handle, shoulder pad is brutal. Having art directors, clients and assistants joke about them being small robots or underwater cameras doesn't instill confidence in you on set and you can lose credibility.

The weight of the URSA on a good tripod makes for fluid movements and focus pulls. I've been able to pair the Mini 4K with a DEFY G5 (only rated to 5lbs) with good results. I prefer the ergonomics of those two cameras, not just from a bigger is better standpoint.

Mixing SSDs and SDs was a pain. I get good raw results with the 256GB Komputerbay 3700x CFast for $280 on Amazon. I like the portability of CFast and having two slots for compressed raw recording.

For me wheeling cameras around the streets of NY, the less I have to worry about and build on set the better. The ergonomics of both cameras are great and larger URSA is a valuable tool. At $5,000 it was worth the money, $4,000 yes, $3,000 right now for the V1 sensor is a bargain. After all you get to use the camera you own and upgrading the sensor is a bonus. You also get to write off the depreciation too.

I'm considering how to use the MINI Pro in my workflow after getting the discount from B&H, but I'm also considering selling it for a profit and pocketing the extra cash. If you sell the resolve key separately the discount is similar to getting an URSA V1 or 4K Mini for nothing. B&H had the URSA Mini Pro for $6,400 with a free URSA PL for a few weeks. I'm assuming Blackmagic was not happy with that.

I do appreciate the comments on this post and I think the sensor upgrade would be a valuable addition to the URSA. I think the price should be lower than $2,000, maybe $899? I don't need super high frame rates on it. I would also buy or upgrade to a new URSA with a new sensor so I hope that is a possibility.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 7:56 pm

Iain Philpott wrote:Mini Pro now the only 'cinema' camera available. Even Ursa Mini has gone??????

No... three of the original non-pro URSA Mini cameras are still listed, but they're down within the URSA Mini Pro section. Even from the first page, scroll down far enough and you'll see the caption:

Two Incredible Models - Choose URSA Mini or URSA Mini Pro models

(which is a bit odd because in reality there are four cameras, and they even show three models; they're now considering the UM4K-EF, UM4.6K-EF and UM4.6K-PL as "one" model.)

Also look at the Tech Specs page and you'll still see four cameras listed. The only URSA Mini that was dropped is the 4K PL mount.
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 8:30 pm

Well, it looks bad for the 4.6K turret. No word from BMD... they linked it to the mini pro with this damn upgrade path and now if we "talk" about the minis to compare them to the turret we actually needed, we are threatened that this thread will be closed. BMD, please stop that mini pro nonsense and get the 4.6K turret ready.

We are now forced to talk about that other camera we didn't want and when we do talk about it, its suddenly off topic. Pretty bad this whole situation : (

4.6K TURRET PLEASE!!!!
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 8:50 pm

We should start calling out people on instagram to ask for the 4.6K TURRET at NAB. I just did, but my instagram account is pretty small. Apparently they want to see how it goes in vegas before they make a decision. If nobody asks they may give up? Problem is that people go to NAB not just for BMD so of course few will spend the day there making drama about the turret :(
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Clayton Von Isaacs

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 4:22 am

MartinVidic wrote:Well, it looks bad for the 4.6K turret. No word from BMD... they linked it to the mini pro with this damn upgrade path and now if we "talk" about the minis to compare them to the turret we actually needed, we are threatened that this thread will be closed. BMD, please stop that mini pro nonsense and get the 4.6K turret ready.

We are now forced to talk about that other camera we didn't want and when we do talk about it, its suddenly off topic. Pretty bad this whole situation : (

4.6K TURRET PLEASE!!!!

It's done. Time to move on.
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Ben Mart

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 6:58 am

Think I'll wait till I hear from BMD...not selling or buying anything thing till they say something.

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Clayton Von Isaacs

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 7:10 am

Ben Mart wrote:Think I'll wait till I hear from BMD...not selling or buying anything thing till they say something.

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Ursa major is not even on the website anymore. They could not get the 4.6 sensor to work with the hardware in the Ursa Major. That is why they offered the trade in program from the big Ursa to the Ursa Mini Pro. It's dead. Your holding out hope for something that is dead.
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Ben Mart

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 7:15 am

Clayton Von Isaacs wrote:
Ben Mart wrote:Think I'll wait till I hear from BMD...not selling or buying anything thing till they say something.

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Ursa major is not even on the website anymore. They could not get the 4.6 sensor to work with the hardware in the Ursa Major. That is why they offered the trade in program from the big Ursa to the Ursa Mini Pro. It's dead. Your holding out hope for something that is dead.

No **** sherlock. But till i get conformation from bdm no money is going out of my wallet.

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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 11:55 am

99.9999% that it's really dead Clayton. But I will wait too. I believe they are just trying to make people panic and take the loyalty upgrade. Next they will have their big announcement saying:

People just don't ask for the URSA Turret Upgrade enough and everybody is happy with the UMP upgrade path.

Which is not true, but Im convinced they are trying to manipulate their numbers by removing the other products and not saying anything official. And they are just preparing this "This" next "Step"! I talked to BHPhoto and they said i should get the UMP asap because the upgrade path is still possible and they don't know how much longer BMD will offer it.

Besides I have no choice. I paid almost 7K for the big ursa because i had to fly to the US to get it and then fly again because something was broken. Now i would have to fly again to get the UMPro and I can't even sell the URSA where i am right now. So I would be paying 11K for the UMPro? Not exactly the best buy.
and it only has a tiny 4 inch screen, no 120FPS, no global shutter... hmmmmm :(

I could only consider the UMP instead of the turret if i got at least a free 7 inch screen and if i could trade in my URSA MAJOR... + get a really good offer. I would probably still not be completely happy though.
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rick.lang

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 4:44 pm

Safe to say the URSA's first iteration is dead. It may come back within the next two years in a second generation camera for those who will benefit from its use by a two or three person camera crew, but that's just my speculation based on the number of people that want to keep that design working for them.

The turret is another issue and at this point the official word in public is to the effect "we are working on it, but we aren't satisfied with it yet" as mentioned by Tim Siddons at NAB 2017. So that can go either way: dead or alive and kicking. Off the record it appears that it may be dead, but if I had the URSA, I'd hang on to it too.

The URSA Mini Pro 4.6K upgrade offer is very appealing because you can have your cake and it it too: if and when the turret appears, you can buy the turret and use two cameras or sell one as both will be highly marketable.


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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 10:53 pm

rick.lang wrote:Safe to say the URSA's first iteration is dead. It may come back within the next two years in a second generation camera for those who will benefit from its use by a two or three person camera crew, but that's just my speculation based on the number of people that want to keep that design working for them.

The turret is another issue and at this point the official word in public is to the effect "we are working on it, but we aren't satisfied with it yet" as mentioned by Tim Siddons at NAB 2017. So that can go either way: dead or alive and kicking. Off the record it appears that it may be dead, but if I had the URSA, I'd hang on to it too.

The URSA Mini Pro 4.6K upgrade offer is very appealing because you can have your cake and it it too: if and when the turret appears, you can buy the turret and use two cameras or sell one as both will be highly marketable.


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I'm sorry Rick, but the turret is dead. I am here in Vegas, the show just ended. I have spent a lot of time at the BM booth each day, Mon-Thur, and every BM rep that I have talked to has spoken of turret in past tense or that it's not going to happen. All of them. I talked with a very high up, twice, (who I don't want to quote because I didn't represent myself as an online rep or anything) but he said it's over. It's over. Could they revive it? I guess. But that would be a miracle at this point. I would carry on as though the turret is forever dead, and be pleasantly surprised by the very very VERY unlikely event that it ever becomes a reality. Sorry. It's over.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 2:39 am

Until BMD says we're abandoning the Turret in a press release or post..all of this is wild accusations, heresay and dare i say "Alternate facts? "
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 2:47 am

Thanx Jonesy for asking about the turret!!!!!!
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 3:06 am

Dan May BMD president official words
Is the URSA turret upgrade ever going to happen??
Here's the answer:



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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 3:20 am

"Hazy."


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robertmanningjr

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 5:31 am

MartinVidic wrote:If this is the upgrade path, the upgrade should be as follows:

You send in your ursa major and get:
• ursa mini pro
• You get an additional 5 inch monitor
• You get an additional 7 inch monitor
• You get a free battery backplate - EVERYBODY bought that.
• and pay 2000$ => the turret price

In fact its still not the same, because the GLOBAL SHUTTER is gone and the FRAME RATE is not there
so you should get another 1000$ off or get a free viewfinder - and im still not 100$ sure if id take it, because the 120 fps were IMPORTANT.


I'm with you Martin and here is my additional ten cents. I have already sent an email to Dan May through the Blackmagic Website, I'm sending a certified letter tomorrow, and I just posted a comment on his YouTube reply to Ursacam "Is the Ursa Turret Upgrade Ever Going To Happen?" regarding the turret:

"The URSA mini pro is not an upgrade. It's a way out. And it is anything but classy. I don't know one URSA owner that is happy about the upgrade. I am not. If you want to do "right" by the original URSA owners, like me, you have us send in our URSA and you send us an URSA mini pro with a 4K monitor and an EVF. That would be close to doing "right" by the original URSA customers. The URSA v1 shoots RAW at 80fps and the URSA v2 shoots RAW at 120fps. The URSA Mini "Pro" tops at 60fps, has one small screen, smaller than all three on the URSA. It's a joke to say you are doing "right" by URSA customers by having them pay @$3,800 and call it a bargain. The 4.6k turret upgrade would have cost a total of @$2,200 and I would've been able to keep my three screens, one of which is amazing, my frame rates and my global shutter. All of which you confirmed was the case.

And, Blackmagicdesign, you have one MAJOR problem. You advertised the URSA as the "world's first user upgradeable camera". That is the ONLY reason I bought the URSA. It made sense to buy a camera where you could keep the body and change out the sensor. And at NAB 2015 you said as a statement of fact that it worked and it was shipping later that year. It is now NAB 2017 and your are saying it looks "hazy". Well, it must have looked hazy two years ago, a year ago and even now.

It doesn't take a lawyer to know that if the camera is not upgradeable, you have, at this point and previously, committed fraud

"A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury."

Blackmagic will either HAVE TO refund all URSA owners their original purchase price or get them to agree to an "upgrade" or "even exchange".

I am not happy and I will not let Blackmagic get away with costing me money on a product advertised with an upgradeable turret.

I have already contacted them and requested a refund for all my Blackmagic equipment that I purchased under false pretense."

If Blackmagic had come out to customers and said in 2015 OR early 2016, after they missed the Q4 shipping date, that we are having problems with the turret and we may not be able to deliver the upgrade, I would not even own an URSA. But they are just now saying that. It is absolutely unacceptable. They have known for a long time this was not working and they did not tell their customers.
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robertmanningjr

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 5:38 am

This is the response from UrsaCam:

"UrsaCam.com2 minutes ago
I'm sorry you feel this way. I'm an Ursa owner that feels great about the upgrade! Also the Ursa Mini Pro shoots 120 at 2k, (just so you know). The UMP is a far better camera (in my opinion) to the original in so many ways, and if you can get past your frustration (which is understandable) I highly recommend taking advantage of the upgrade before it goes away."

This is my response:

"Alpha and Omega Productions1 second ago
"Also the Ursa Mini Pro shoots 120 at 2k, (just so you know)" I am well aware of the specs of the URSA Mini and Pro. 120 at 2k is not 120 at 4k, so please don't try to compare. And an URSA with a 4.6k sensor that shoots 120fps is what was promised, which is a far better camera, with three screens, and a global shutter. There is no comparison. And it's why I bought the camera. I am also well aware of my consumer rights. I've been down this road before with a much larger camera company and all of my gear was refunded at its original purchase price. The "upgrade" is not an upgrade. It's a settlement."
Rob

Mac Pro 5,1
OS 10.13.6
2 x 3.46 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon
32 GB 1333 MHz DDR3
1 TB Samsung SSD Startup Disk APFS
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 8191 MB
Cache Disk: 500 GB Samsung
Editing Disk: 1 TB Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2
Davinci Resolve Studio 16.0.0.044
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Brian Gulliver

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 5:50 am

THIS SHOULD BE MORE LIKE A PRODUCT RECALL we should not have to pay for URSA Mini Pro and we either get our purchase price back in full or they provide other options however we should not have to pay a dime it is not our fault.

The two cameras are not the same product and are not equal trade if we are expected to upgrade to the URSA Mini Pro. At the very least they should be giving us the URSA mini pro as consolation and sympathy for our loss we should not have to pay a dime or make a new purchase.

We certainly aren't getting what we were promised when we purchased the URSA. No sensor updates, no firmware updates, no flagship "white glove" support or Priority treatment. I don't know how Ursa Owners went from being the first to receive 4.6K sensors to the last and now not even crossing the finish line?

Lets hope we can See Clearly and our pain is gone soon.


I am clicking and double clicking on the new "Dehaze" function in Resolve 14 and nothing is happening more Cuda cores are needed to debayer this fog in my head giving me a migraine headaches. Please help BMD!!!
Last edited by Brian Gulliver on Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joshua Dredge

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 7:17 am

robertmanningjr wrote:The "upgrade" is not an upgrade. It's a settlement."


That is not true. It can be construed as an act of good faith while waiting for the turret. If the turret does not ship, then it is NOT settlement nor compensation. Unless they provide the camera for free/in exchange for your URSA, then it's not compensation - its an extra purchase.

If I purchased an URSA Mini Pro using the upgrade option, it still doesn't fix the problems with the URSA major and I'd still exercise my right to return the URSA for a refund under Australian law.
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Gavin_c_clark

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 11:10 am

Let us know how you get on Rob.

I think having watched the Dan May interview, the fat lady is walking to the stage...
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Dennis Sørensen

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 1:15 pm

Please stop saying that you would hve an 4.6K Ursa with global shutter. That is, and never was, the case.. the switchable part was removed a loooooong time ago. Something they have made very clear. So stop using that as an argument.
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MartinVidic

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?!?!?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 1:22 pm

Well. This is just my point of view. BUT!!! Would ANYBODY here be willing to SEND THE CAMERA IN to get the upgrade done by Blackmagic and they change whatever part needs to be changed similar to some of the RED upgrades? If this is a good way out for other URSA buyers, maybe we should let BMD know. THIS MUST be POSSIBLE!!!?!?!?!?!?

I mean I m the guy who has to travel and pay 1000$ extra every time i want to get my ursa fixed and also when i bought it. And i wouldn't mind travelling a 3rd time if it would be worth it! I already spent 7K on it and apart from the turret issue i love everything else about this camera.

It would be easier for ppl who live in the US.

BMD: The URSA is a kickass camera. As for me: I understand its hard, but you GOT to have a better way out. maybe get touch with ursa buyers a bit more. believe me (and in the name of everybody else here) it will be worth it. If you do this right you will KEEP a lot of customers.

Maybe create something locked for ursa owners where they con log in with their serial number?
THERE GOT TO BE SOMETHING !!!!
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 1:41 pm

robertmanningjr wrote:This is the response from UrsaCam:

"UrsaCam.com2 minutes ago
Also the Ursa Mini Pro shoots 120 at 2k, (just so you know).


Yes Robert! Exactly. And let's not forget that the BIG URSA already shoots 150fps in 2k
So if anybody wanted to shoot in 2k, even in THAT case the UMPro would be a downgrade.

Well im SURE for SOME people its a really really good deal. i mean thats an AMAZING price and if you are in it just for the 15 stops its not bad. And even better if you have 2 teams or if you can rent one camera.

But none of that is the case in my situation. for me its 5 disadvantages vs 1 advantage. The only PLUS for me would be access to 15stops and thats good news but NOT my main priority.

HA HA HA:
Brian Gulliver wrote:HOPE WE CAN SEE CLEARL NOW

That relaxed me for a moment
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David Hessel

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 4:00 pm

Dennis Sørensen wrote:Please stop saying that you would hve an 4.6K Ursa with global shutter. That is, and never was, the case.. the switchable part was removed a loooooong time ago. Something they have made very clear. So stop using that as an argument.


That was the way that advertised when they announced it at NAB. While they may have come out and said it wasn't possible with the Mini as far as I know they have never come out and said it wasn't going to happen for the URSA. So at this point a 4.6k global/rolling shutter turret with all the specs listed above is what was the only version promised that still has not been delievered. If you can find somewhere they say it global shutter was scrapped for the URSA too then you can make that argument.
David Hessel
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 4:08 pm

David Hessel wrote:
Dennis Sørensen wrote:Please stop saying that you would hve an 4.6K Ursa with global shutter. That is, and never was, the case.. the switchable part was removed a loooooong time ago. Something they have made very clear. So stop using that as an argument.


That was the way that advertised when they announced it at NAB. While they may have come out and said it wasn't possible with the Mini as far as I know they have never come out and said it wasn't going to happen for the URSA. So at this point a 4.6k global/rolling shutter turret with all the specs listed above is what was the only version promised that still has not been delievered. If you can find somewhere they say it global shutter was scrapped for the URSA too then you can make that argument.


ALSO!!! When you own an URSA MAJOR you will ALWAYS have a global shutter. Even if they decided to get rid the global shutter option in the turret at the end, you would still OWN a camera with global shutter and rolling shutter, because you can change the turret. Not as good as promised, but when you sell your URSA and get a mini-pro instead, you lose the global once and for all.
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Brian Gulliver

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 4:47 pm

I think all URSA owners should get a token for a free upgrade option to future products as well as current products. If the URSA Mini is not the camera that we wanted we shouldn't be forced to get it or else forfeit our upgrade options. We should at least be given a token that is good for all current and future products that we can use for products which match cameras that we choose on our own not being forced into some BlackMagic foodstamp program which is not flexible enough to meet our needs.

Like for instance If they come out with URSA Major Pro that actually does have an up-gradable sensor at NAB 2018 and we upgrade to URSA Mini now to "settle" for less because the rules say we must upgrade or else loose everything I can just check off one more box in the wrong column for Black Magic.

That is the type of autocratic government which Black Magic said they were so much against 5 years ago. They came out with Open standards and non-proprietary culture but I see this move going directly against their core ideals. We should be able to get the camera we want when we want it and not be force into submission like a herd of cattle going to the slaughterhouse.
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Ben Mart

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 5:02 pm

Maybe we should set up a new thread showcasing films shot on the ursa major highlighting it's key features?

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Denny Smith

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 5:21 pm

Complaining about what is not happening with the Ursa Turret upgrade is not going to get it fixed. You bought a great camera with a nice 4K Glibal Shutter camera, with high speed frame rates, not rolling shutter issues. End of story!

BM was a little amiss trying to offer it as a possible upgradeable camera with its "interchangeable" Turret, which is not interchangeable in the same sense as an interchangeable lens mount, you just unscrew and rescues in a new mount. The upgrade Turret is Not and p,if and play, change whenever you want option.
It was/is a one time change to "upgrade your sensor (which allowed a one time lens mount change too).

BM's mistake was offering something they had yet to produce, it was all just engineering specifications. They did, if I rmember, offer a 4K V2 upgrade after the original V1 Ursa came out, and this worked, they had it on the V2 cameras and offered it to the Ver1 buyers. That was your "promised upgrade for the first released Ursa cameras, the other proposed Turret ideas, like a video output connection instead of a lens, B4 mint Turret never got off the ground, and were dropped.

When the 4.6 sensor was in development and the Ursa Mini designed for it, BM again jumped the gun by releasing the sensor would be a GS/RS dual shutter camera, along with the Micro Cinema camera having both shutters. Again, the BM cart was before the horse, and technical issues trying to implement this whi,e keeping the unique sensor' high IQ intact task not possible, the GS was dropped on All cameras both the 4.6 sensor and the Micro camera. GS is going to be a new camera down the line. End of this story.

Also, BM bit off more than they could chew by trying to make the Ursa upgradeable to a sensor technology yet to be developed. This means the new sensor is going to have to work with the existing power, video processor and cooling systems, which further ties an engineer's hands in developing a product that will fit in this restraint, increasing development costs, etc. In the end, at least with this version of the 4.6K sensor, the Ursa is not working satisfactorily with the attempts BM has made trying to fit it in the existing Turret setup and work with the Ursa's processing system.

Also the Ursa processor can not run the FW 4.x from the Ursa Mini, and needs a new OS just for it to run a new processor. So in addition to changing the Sensor/Turret (not an easy or quick task), you will need to upgrade the camera OS to work with the new sensor. The issues in an upgradeable camera keep adding up. At one point, designing a new camera becomes the better route to take.

The lessons is this is BM learned (hopefully) not to promise a camera feature they have not already developed and tested. This is made evident with the out of the blue release of the Ursa Mini Pro, and subsequent announcement of it having Bluetooth support. The lesson for us, not to expect something that has not been made or even developed yet. Every attempt I have seen over the years to make a camera "upgradeable" even in film cameras, has failed. Sony, Rollei, and Kodak have all tried, it just does not work, you can not build something today that will accept a new part that has yet to be designed or made, unless that part can be made specifically designed for that piece of equipment, to add a new feature.

BM made a generous offer to original Ursa buyers (not used camera purchases) to get a discount in the Ursa Mini Pro, at a value greater than the original estimated Ursa Turret upgrade, and you get to keep the Ursa also. Expecting that BM owes any camera buyer, including the Ursa, anything more is just not realistic. BM does not owe anyone anything, promoting yet to be made accessories or parts for a camera is not a promise of delivery, nor is it a contract to provide the those parts, it is an intent to try, but not a promise to deliver, so no court cases here either I believe.

Embrace change, quit clinging onto the past. The Ursa just as it is, is a great camera, and makes great images. It still is a 4K camera with lots of features that can produce an excellent Cinema 2K release feature film, if you wanted to. The camera is capable as it stands, are you? Take you Ursa, and go out and used it, make a feature film, or a great little commercial. Go inverview someone with a story to tell, and tell their story. Let the past go! :roll:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Gavin_c_clark

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 6:19 pm

Denny

As far as I am aware the v2 sensor wasn't available to v1 buyers as an upgrade

And yes it is a great camera with all of the features you mentioned

But I bought if for its upgradability, that was the usp and the reason I bought it. If you had told me it will never be upgraded I wouldn't have bought it
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VicHarris

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 6:24 pm

updated
Last edited by VicHarris on Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 6:44 pm

30K VIEWS now.

PEOPLE who are just reading this need to comment too!!! I usually don't comment on forums (normally i just read) but this IS IMPORANT. There are several ways BMD can make up for this without bankrupting themselves. I don't expect any money back if they can at least offer me something a bit better than the UMP.
HONESTY + an official announcement wouldnt be bad!

Also. If i had access to other cameras like some more established film makers here, i might not care that much about the turret. But i carefully chose the URSA as my first camera of this caliber - for its upgradability and I need they features promoted. its not just that a little more dynamic range would be nice. 3 screens, higher fps and global shutter are even more important... at least for me

How many URSAs did you sell BMD? You should really get in touch with EVERYBODY who is not happy with the UMP option. Im sure its not that many customers. That can't be too much to ask for. Show some good will please!
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Ryan Earl

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 6:46 pm

To politely belabor the point, I think it is not just that the original URSA was advertised as making itself available to possible future upgrades. They photographed, produced specs and made the 4.6K Turret available for preorder at B&H and other reputable dealers. Adorama is still showing the URSA 4.6K for $7,000 and "in stock online."

I've gone to both the July 2015 and 2016 Blackmagic Wyndham events in New York with full days of lectures promoting the 4.6K sensor over the 4K sensor while listening to salesman promising a flagship URSA with 4.6K sensor. The sales/technical staff was out in force to promote the upgrade and camera, not just hint at the possibilities.

There should be disappointment and anger from users over a complete lack of delivery for the upgrade and new URSA. Blackmagic has profited from the sales of the V1 and V2 URSA while advertising not just the random possibility of a future sensor, but a very specific 4.6K sensor with detailed specs.

If you preorder a sensor upgrade you're agreeing to allow the retailer to authorize your credit card, you are agreeing to not buy something else. Blackmagic benefits from the preorder process by keeping customers in their ecosystem and not letting them move to another manufacturer that may be offering a similarly priced camera with comparable specs.

How can you have a MINI without the flagship camera? I don't think you can tell the customer/user to get over themselves after almost 3 years of over promising and a system of preorders without delivery.
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Denny Smith

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 7:26 pm

It is not over yet. BM is still working on this according to Grant and Dan May. My point was, BM not taking deposits, resellers are to confirm intent to buy. BM is listing the camera to see how much demand they get. If you want a 4.6K Ursa, and/or the upgrade, tell .BM directly, pre order it, etc. The greater the demand, the mote likely .BM will try to make it happen. It might end up, sendingnyou Ursa in for a factory applied upgrade IR a field swap, depending on how much of the original Ursa is reuse able.
Cheers.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Andreas Caemmerer

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 7:55 pm

Our turret order has not been cancelled yet...
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Ben Mart

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 8:31 pm

Denny Smith wrote:It is not over yet. BM is still working on this according to Grant and Dan May. My point was, BM not taking deposits, resellers are to confirm intent to buy. BM is listing the camera to see how much demand they get. If you want a 4.6K Ursa, and/or the upgrade, tell .BM directly, pre order it, etc. The greater the demand, the mote likely .BM will try to make it happen. It might end up, sendingnyou Ursa in for a factory applied upgrade IR a field swap, depending on how much of the original Ursa is reuse able.
Cheers.

+1

Wise words from Denny

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Jonesy Jones

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 8:48 pm

It is over.

This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.

I've noticed this is BM's way. If you think they are going to blow the trumpets to announce the end, you will likely never get your wish.
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