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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:42 am
by robert Hart
The big URSA wishlist just to round off a good product.

The 4.6K turret upgrade or a generational skip to a more densely packed S35 sensor.

A replacement door/big LCD with a dual SSD dock. ( There may be cabling reasons why this would not be doable. - There does not appear to be sufficient uncommitted workspace in or around the big URSA body to install a dual SSD dock. )

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:51 am
by Asok Kumar
THANKS a lot Sir,I have decided to buy cinalta scl pk6 lens from Europe,my only last doubt is this cinalta lens are as sharp as ultra prime also ,as good as in color rendering as ultra prime,why Iam asking is I have seen an Indian feature film shot on sony cinalta scl pl3 lens on sony F55 camera(Indian Malayalam movie"Lakshiam" and another Indian Malayalam movie"Laila o Laila",both shot on sony F55 and cinalta lens ),but the overall footage/picture quality was poor(may be because they used sony F55 camera),expect ur valuable reply,regards asok

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:08 am
by Asok Kumar
robert Hart wrote:The big URSA wishlist just to round off a good product.

The 4.6K turret upgrade or a generational skip to a more densely packed S35 sensor.

A replacement door/big LCD with a dual SSD dock. ( There may be cabling reasons why this would not be doable. - There does not appear to be sufficient uncommitted workspace in or around the big URSA body to install a dual SSD dock. )

I don't understand what you mean sir,please make it more legible

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:31 am
by Asok Kumar
robert Hart wrote:The big URSA wishlist just to round off a good product.

The 4.6K turret upgrade or a generational skip to a more densely packed S35 sensor.

A replacement door/big LCD with a dual SSD dock. ( There may be cabling reasons why this would not be doable. - There does not appear to be sufficient uncommitted workspace in or around the big URSA body to install a dual SSD dock. )

A ssd can be done on the back of Ursa behind the battery,so it may not be the problem

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:33 pm
by Michael Odhiambo
Asok Kumar wrote:THANKS a lot Sir,I have decided to buy cinalta scl pk6 lens from Europe,my only last doubt is this cinalta lens are as sharp as ultra prime also ,as good as in color rendering as ultra prime,why Iam asking is I have seen an Indian feature film shot on sony cinalta scl pl3 lens on sony F55 camera(Indian Malayalam movie"Lakshiam" and another Indian Malayalam movie"Laila o Laila",both shot on sony F55 and cinalta lens ),but the overall footage/picture quality was poor(may be because they used sony F55 camera),expect ur valuable reply,regards asok


Let us know your thoughts once you get the lenses. Share some footage, all that goodness. Probably start a new thread. This one tries to get the URSA turret convo going.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:11 pm
by Asok Kumar
Angionex has released EZ1 lens with a swapable real element to convert it between super 35 and full frame lens,any body knows how is it possible without involving the optical elements? I think that the lens is a full frame lens by windowing it is converted to super 35 and by removing the window at the rear it is again converted to full frame again? If anyone knows much,please reply

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:22 pm
by Nick Gombinsky
I know the answer to that one.

I'll tell you if you open a new thread about it.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:31 pm
by Asok Kumar
OK,how can I open a new thread?

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:43 pm
by Nick Gombinsky
Screen Shot 2017-11-01 at 13.41.47.png
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There.
Welcome to the forums.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:05 pm
by robertmanningjr
Patrick Acum wrote:For a product that has probably been delayed or shelved because of lack of commercial interest, this thread has had more views than pretty much anything else on this forum with the exception of the faqs. 80 000 + views and counting!!!

And that's why this thread is important. We are letting BMD know that customers want the turret that was advertised. Heck, we would take a turret that wasn't advertised at this point.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:04 am
by Asok Kumar
Absolutely u r correct,any we want the turret,nothing more

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:20 am
by Patrick Acum
robert Hart wrote:The big URSA wishlist just to round off a good product.

The 4.6K turret upgrade or a generational skip to a more densely packed S35 sensor.

A replacement door/big LCD with a dual SSD dock. ( There may be cabling reasons why this would not be doable. - There does not appear to be sufficient uncommitted workspace in or around the big URSA body to install a dual SSD dock. )



That's a good idea - there's a lot of real estate in the door - could be a bit like the xr module for the alexa classic.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:42 pm
by Ben Mart
In November now any news on the sensor working yet?
As stated by Robert and others would be happy with the mini.4.6 sensor with interchangeable mount:-)

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:47 am
by Asok Kumar
As there is a trend to full frame sensor from super 35,BMD may be making full frame turret for Ursa

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:33 am
by Patrick Acum
I think it very unlikely that there'll be anything revolutionary coming for the big ursa like FF or 8k. The best we can hope for is probably a non GS 4.6k sensor with limited, if any, off speed options. I'd still take it...

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:04 pm
by Asok Kumar
Yes,if it happens,I would also buy it

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:44 pm
by Michael Odhiambo
Patrick Acum wrote:I think it very unlikely that there'll be anything revolutionary coming for the big ursa like FF or 8k. The best we can hope for is probably a non GS 4.6k sensor with limited, if any, off speed options. I'd still take it...


Well, if it has current URSA mini specs, I will take it. Anything less will be a bad apple.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:50 am
by Asok Kumar
Black magic design proclaimed it,sony did it!on upgrading sensor

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:31 pm
by Gene Kochanowsky
Just like BM, I don't think Sony can claim interchangeable sensor blocks until there are at least two different sensor blocks available for purchase that one could actually interchange. Otherwise it means nothing.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:00 am
by Asok Kumar
I started shooting my Indian feature film on my Ursa4K!,any Hope for Ursa turret?

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:59 pm
by Michael Odhiambo
The 4.6 Camera update was skipped?!?. Maybe a sign... maybe.
Santa I have been good this year.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:44 pm
by Brian Gulliver
BMD is already developing 8K products like DeckLink 8K Pro. Maybe they are skipping 4k and going straight to 8K. All of these extremely long delays and no promises could just be their attempts to keep it under wraps. I don't believe in Santa.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:26 pm
by David Hessel
Do you really think they are brushing over the already developed 4.6k sensor to move on to something better while keeping their unhappy previous customers waiting with nothing to show for it? According to them they are already struggling getting the now years old 4.6k sensor working on the older hardware of the Ursa and you think they are going to add an even newer sensor down the road? The best you can hope for is the 4.6k which is doubtful and maybe the V2 of the 4K but that is the best anyone is going to get if get anything at all.

The Ursa is dead.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:37 am
by Brian Gulliver
David Hessel wrote:Do you really think they are brushing over the already developed 4.6k sensor to move on to something better while keeping their unhappy previous customers waiting with nothing to show for it? According to them they are already struggling getting the now years old 4.6k sensor working on the older hardware of the Ursa and you think they are going to add an even newer sensor down the road? The best you can hope for is the 4.6k which is doubtful and maybe the V2 of the 4K but that is the best anyone is going to get if get anything at all.

The Ursa is dead.


I still have the same expectations now as when I bought the camera.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:24 am
by Gene Kochanowsky
David Hessel wrote:The best you can hope for is ... maybe the V2 of the 4K but that is the best anyone is going to get if get anything at all.

If BM was serious about continuing to support the Ursa the V2 turret would be available for purchase. They don't have to do anything else but build it and stock it. They still make the PCC for goodness sakes. Probably because there is enough demand to make it worth their while .

Isn't it obvious .

The Ursa is dead.

Exactly.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:04 am
by Ellory Yu
robertmanningjr wrote:
Ryan Earl wrote:Is there a situation or reason to choose the URSA 4K sensor over the latest 4.6K besides lower cost?
Global Shutter? More or Less Filmic look? Is it a unanimous decision among customers to upgrade especially since there is no going back?

Is there an online petition started with signatures or names added of those customers who would upgrade?


I now have both and there are several considerations when we go on a job. Black Hole Sun with the 4K sensor is a major problem. If we are shooting in any situation where that could be a problem, then we leave the 4K at home. Fast pans, movement or fast moves, then we have to go with the global shutter of the 4K. For me, if the 4.6K sensor was in our URSA body (global shutter), we would always use the big URSA. But people have different opinions on that. The big URSA's monitor is phenomenal and the big URSA on the shoulder is phenomenal. Ease of use, timecode,and assistant side screen make the URSA a better camera for us because we do a fair amount of narrative work. But if someone does mostly documentary or run and gun work, the Mini would be best. We've gotten great color from both cameras.

And I would upgrade as soon as the turret is offered.


That's true in our case too. We use the big URSA heavily when we are on sticks but doing fast pans, movements and fast moves... love that global shutter. We only do narratives. For run-n-gun situations, we go wth a C200 which has good stabilization.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:37 am
by Brian Gulliver
It is still alive just as he said.

Hi,

I am posting this to let you know that the loyalty upgrade offer on URSA Mini Pro 4.6K for customers who purchased the original URSA 4K camera has been extended until further notice. The upgradable turret mount for the original URSA camera has been delayed due to technical challenges, so while we continue to work on solving these, we are extending the special offer. The URSA loyalty program gives URSA customers an affordable way of getting the latest Blackmagic Design camera technology today, while keeping your original URSA camera.

We extend our apologies to those of you who have been waiting for the URSA Turret upgrade and appreciate your patience. When developing products it is essential that we meet both the expectations of you as a customer and ourselves. If we released a product we weren't entirely happy with it would be against our principles and unfair on you, our customers.

Should you need a 4.6k camera option now, the loyalty upgrade offer will help you transition to the URSA Mini Pro 4.6k with the addition of ND filters, SD card recording and an interchangeable lens mount. All you need to do is contact the reseller from whom you purchased your original URSA 4K camera and send them a photograph of your camera’s serial number. Your reseller will provide Blackmagic Design with a copy of the original invoice and process the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K order for you at this special price of only $3495. Best of all, you get to keep your original URSA 4K camera too!

We thank you for your patience and hope you’ll take advantage of this offer.
Please contact your Blackmagic Design reseller or local office with any questions!

Regards,

Grant

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:07 pm
by Michael Odhiambo
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I will just leave this here...
Latest mailer from B&H.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:44 am
by Asok Kumar
Is this catalogue/add on the Ursa 4.6 K is still on b&h site?

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:05 am
by Denny Smith
No, no it is not, nor is it in the current Winter 2018 Catalog, I looked!
Cheers

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:42 am
by Asok Kumar
ANY recent comments from black magic CEO Grant pretty?

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:21 am
by Gavin_c_clark
Day 955 since the announcement of the turret... any news at all? Can I add it to my Christmas list? ;)

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:29 pm
by robertmanningjr
Gavin_c_clark wrote:Day 955 since the announcement of the turret... any news at all? Can I add it to my Christmas list? ;)

Dec 1, 2018 is tomorrow and that was my personal deadline for patience. We have all been very patient. I am now following the advice of the New York State Division of Consumer Protection dated July 14, 2017.

"...If you are dissatisfied with the outcome of your complaint and wish to pursue this matter further, it is suggested that you seek legal assistance or contact the New York State Attorney General's office. I have listed the Attorney General's address and telephone number below for your convenience:

NYS Attorney General
Consumer Fraud Bureau
State Capitol
Albany, New York 12224
1-800-771-7755
http://www.oag.state.ny.us

The DCP makes every effort to mediate disputes to a satisfactory conclusion and we regret being unable to resolve this matter...."

I'm sure the process is similar in whatever state you are in, and similar in different countries.

I am taking the next step.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:53 pm
by Denny Smith
Interesting approach Robert, but BM will respond, “while we were unable to provide a satisfactory 4.6K Turret upgrade for the Ursa Camera, we did offer all original Ursa owners a Ursa Mini Promfor around the same price as the upgrade turret would have cost”. Case closed. Also, the Ursa would not be considered a “consumer”product, and would probably not be covered under Consumer Goods Protection acts.

Good luck with this, however.
Cheers

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:52 pm
by Donnell Henry
Robert I know you’re waiting and are losing/lost patience at this point. A lot of us here are waiting as well. But BM has addressed the issues happening around the ursa. I do not believe it’s a grand conspiracy not to get this turret working. I believe BM wants to give us the best turret possible, they’re learning from past mistakes and do not want to give us a halfa$$ed product. Can you imagine the backlash? BM; as stated by Tim and others and eventually Mr Grant himself have said this too. Read his post above again. I’ve never invested in a company that would tell you the issues of a product they’re working on and then give you a discount of their latest product by nearly 40% the retail price while you wait. Give them time. I may sound naive here, but I do believe it’s coming and we’ll be pleasantly surprised. Keep hope alive :)

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:29 am
by Denis Kazlowski
@Robert

Do read this: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67379
And this: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65716

Short of dismantling and photographing all the components inside the URSA v1 that I own, I cannot speculate further than those threads as to what would prevent BM from releasing the 4.6k sensors that finally ended up on the URSA Mini 4.6k and Mini Pro 4.6k onto the URSA. Those included different FPGA1 design speculation, FGA1 block re-programming speculation and a general question if ANYONE and I do mean ANYONE have tried to perform a Turret V1 to Turret V2 swap between two URSA bodies and got a working camera in either direction to or from.

And it is 2017 currently.

Also a question to be asked, would you be happy with a lower than 120fps frame rate, rolling shutter 4.6k turret, IMHO - that is a more achievable for BM Engineering as seen by posts that global shutter is a no-go on the mini models. I would think giving up GS as 99% of camera vendors did for higher ASA, higher DR at a lesser noise (SNR) is grand idea, esp on that body size.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:48 pm
by robert Hart
Careful what you wish for. BM might just close up shop and give up if you go the litigation route.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:00 pm
by Brian Gulliver
R&D takes time I just wish BM would have better communication so these sorts of actions would not fester.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:30 pm
by Joshua Dredge
Denny Smith wrote:Interesting approach Robert, but BM will respond, “while we were unable to provide a satisfactory 4.6K Turret upgrade for the Ursa Camera, we did offer all original Ursa owners a Ursa Mini Promfor around the same price as the upgrade turret would have cost”..


Won’t hold up. They (legally) need to refund or replace for free. If they were providing the URSA Mini Pros for free as an agreed upon replacement for the URSA, that would be fine, but just putting them on sale for URSA owners does not fix the problem with the URSA. Even if the person redeemed an offer for an URSA Mini Pro, they would still be eligible for a refund, unless the purchaser explicitly waived that right.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:45 pm
by Denny Smith
Possible not, just being the “devil’s advocate” here. :roll:

But I do not think a Ursa camera would come under most consumer protection laws, in that it is not a “consumer”item, but rather is professional video equipment, sold only through a network of BM dealers, and was not made for general consumer use.
Cheers

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:07 pm
by Denis Kazlowski
Joshua Dredge wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:Interesting approach Robert, but BM will respond, “while we were unable to provide a satisfactory 4.6K Turret upgrade for the Ursa Camera, we did offer all original Ursa owners a Ursa Mini Promfor around the same price as the upgrade turret would have cost”..


Won’t hold up. They (legally) need to refund or replace for free. If they were providing the URSA Mini Pros for free as an agreed upon replacement for the URSA, that would be fine, but just putting them on sale for URSA owners does not fix the problem with the URSA. Even if the person redeemed an offer for an URSA Mini Pro, they would still be eligible for a refund, unless the purchaser explicitly waived that right.


I am new here, but I don't think having a theoretical debate on how to obtain legal recourse and of what kind, will not help anyone in this thread - I've seen it several times on reading this group from 2012.

It's dicey, for anyone wants to pursue any channels like this - who are we to stop them, encourage them or give them unsolicited legal advice. The very fact that people are saying they'll do this or that publicly will already harms their specific path if they decided to do it eventually.

There are questions of venue, jurisdiction and remedies. At what point is it just punitive? Like a complaint to NY AG - all that AG is going to do is collect money for the NY State.

I am certain if anything with actual standing is ever brought up against BM, and I'm assuming it has in the past - it wont be for the betterment of 'all owners' of this product. It will be handled just like all support and RMA cases, on an individual level. After that process they will not be back here to speak about it or report their specific remedies. This is typical for USA only.

These pseudo legal discussions will always be circular as some don't want BM to be 'harmed' and like the company, and others are 'livid mad' or simply schadenfreude types. Why do this?

Now moving on to the next setup - Is there anybody with any background or info on:

Did anyone manage to have their broken Turret swapped without swapping the camera body?
Did anyone swap their EF Turret V1 to PL Turret V1 without swapping the body of the camera?
Did anyone wether by damage or intent swap Turret V1 to V2 without swapping the body of the camera?
Does anyone have or have seen any stand-alone turrets - including a busted up URSA with broken screens sold for parts on eBay?

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:09 pm
by Gene Kochanowsky
As far as I can tell, the Ursa interchangeable turret was a canard. And to this day, interchangeable turrets where never available for the Ursa. At best it was a detachable turret, for all the good that did?

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:46 am
by Joshua Dredge
Denis Kazlowski wrote:
Joshua Dredge wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:Interesting approach Robert, but BM will respond, “while we were unable to provide a satisfactory 4.6K Turret upgrade for the Ursa Camera, we did offer all original Ursa owners a Ursa Mini Promfor around the same price as the upgrade turret would have cost”..


Won’t hold up. They (legally) need to refund or replace for free. If they were providing the URSA Mini Pros for free as an agreed upon replacement for the URSA, that would be fine, but just putting them on sale for URSA owners does not fix the problem with the URSA. Even if the person redeemed an offer for an URSA Mini Pro, they would still be eligible for a refund, unless the purchaser explicitly waived that right.


I am new here, but I don't think having a theoretical debate on how to obtain legal recourse and of what kind, will not help anyone in this thread - I've seen it several times on reading this group from 2012.

It's dicey, for anyone wants to pursue any channels like this - who are we to stop them, encourage them or give them unsolicited legal advice. The very fact that people are saying they'll do this or that publicly will already harms their specific path if they decided to do it eventually.

There are questions of venue, jurisdiction and remedies. At what point is it just punitive? Like a complaint to NY AG - all that AG is going to do is collect money for the NY State.

I am certain if anything with actual standing is ever brought up against BM, and I'm assuming it has in the past - it wont be for the betterment of 'all owners' of this product. It will be handled just like all support and RMA cases, on an individual level. After that process they will not be back here to speak about it or report their specific remedies. This is typical for USA only.

These pseudo legal discussions will always be circular as some don't want BM to be 'harmed' and like the company, and others are 'livid mad' or simply schadenfreude types. Why do this?

Now moving on to the next setup - Is there anybody with any background or info on:

Did anyone manage to have their broken Turret swapped without swapping the camera body?
Did anyone swap their EF Turret V1 to PL Turret V1 without swapping the body of the camera?
Did anyone wether by damage or intent swap Turret V1 to V2 without swapping the body of the camera?
Does anyone have or have seen any stand-alone turrets - including a busted up URSA with broken screens sold for parts on eBay?


It’s important for people to know their rights and retailers should just offer refunds on requests based on basic consumer protection laws. Australia has particularly stringent consumer laws, and New York and California at least in the US seem to have strong ones. I’ve never understood why people don’t exercise these consumer rights and want to encourage people to do so. A product has been sold that can not do what was advertised - that should be instant refund, no need for lawyers.

This may not entirely be a theoretical discussion because, as you have said, cases are usually settled on an individual basis.

Now I would be very interested in broken down URSA bodies to play around with, though I’m more interested in the FGPA than the turent these days, and I’d actually like hook up the screen to another camera :p

Denny Smith wrote:But I do not think a Ursa camera would come under most consumer protection laws, in that it is not a “consumer”item, but rather is professional video equipment, sold only through a network of BM dealers, and was not made for general consumer use.
Cheers


Depends on jurisdiction, but by most definitions it is a consumer product and is/was easily purchasable by general consumers. Often it’s defined by dollar value and the URSA is cheaper than all of household appliances. I can tell for a fact it is covered by Australian consumer law (which has blanket coverage on goods and services priced less than $40k) plus “A person is still defined as a "consumer" if the good was acquired for purposes of re-supply or for the purpose of using or transforming it in trade or commerce”

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:13 am
by Denis Kazlowski
It’s important for people to know their rights and retailers should just offer refunds on requests based on basic consumer protection laws. Australia has particularly stringent consumer laws, and New York and California at least in the US seem to have strong ones. I’ve never understood why people don’t exercise these consumer rights and want to encourage people to do so. A product has been sold that can not do what was advertised - that should be instant refund, no need for lawyers.

Each individual or company should do whatever they deem necessary. My statement was to the effect of posting 'potential action' on a forum would hinder that process, nobody here to my knowledge is equipped to give unsolicited legal advice, and generally causes a endless discussion and copy-paste regulations and other unreal things. I'm sure anyone whom sued or been sued by anyone you'd know how messy it can all get. - Now engaging government bodies of variable states again has it's problems. Ranting into a forum of I'm going to sue and call the AG or the FTC is not actually doing any of those things, it's threatening to do them and announcing. Any council will tell you after the fact that you should not have done that.

This may not entirely be a theoretical discussion because, as you have said, cases are usually settled on an individual basis.
For this forum it is, as we will never know the outcomes, these settle with a stip. on non-disclosure.

Now I would be very interested in broken down URSA bodies to play around with, though I’m more interested in the FGPA than the turent these days, and I’d actually like hook up the screen to another camera :p
If you know how. I've spent decades in various disciplines, sometimes it's not easy to get components that don't cost an arm and a leg.

Depends on jurisdiction, but by most definitions it is a consumer product and is/was easily purchasable by general consumers. Often it’s defined by dollar value and the URSA is cheaper than all of household appliances. I can tell for a fact it is covered by Australian consumer law (which has blanket coverage on goods and services priced less than $40k) plus “A person is still defined as a "consumer" if the good was acquired for purposes of re-supply or for the purpose of using or transforming it in trade or commerce”
Dear god, I am doing this.... This was not a breach of contract. BM did not breach a contract with the user to supply them a 4.6k turret. Now to raise any other legal action you need to show actual damages arising from not being supplied the damn thing, negligence, ill will, plaintiffs and defendants consistent behavior, prior requests to be made whole and the like.

I just think it's bad form (the soup I am in now myself) to post public adverts of theoretical legal problems in a given jurisdiction to a company. Further having a fruitless discussion - which will just yield more such discussions.

It works like this, if in theory BM get's fined by the FTC or NY AG $50,000 for not making the damn Turret available for sale, Show me the URSA owner that will be happy and made whole with this? For them it will be cost of doing business, for the URSA owner it will be the same 4K Turret.

This venue here is probably the worst venue to discuss this kind of stuff!

Conflating the moral hazard with liability is silly. I know people are mad about this. But all this is definitely reaching, and if it's not reaching then people would know better to do this on the D/L.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:19 am
by Denis Kazlowski
This discussion went from - Hey BM can you tell us if you're deprioritizing or abandoning the development of the 4.6k sensor for the URSA, which we've seen demos of... to ...

We're all pro-se plaintiffs and we know our rights. This is bad form. Can't we continue to, as a group of people who own a URSA 4k camera to figure out what we'd be happy with in terms of what they CAN do or have shown in Alpha 4.6k cameras - manage our expectations, do research.

You know more constructive things. I've posted something constructive about sensor temp calibration inside Camera Software Update bundles - zero comments. Someone posts a theoretical legal threat. 30 comments. Not constructive. Easier to type into a forum than do something real.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:58 am
by Gene Kochanowsky
Denis Kazlowski wrote:It works like this, if in theory BM get's fined by the FTC or NY AG $50,000 for not making the damn Turret available for sale, Show me the URSA owner that will be happy and made whole with this? For them it will be cost of doing business, for the URSA owner it will be the same 4K Turret.


Quite right, even if one were to win any payment of damages from BM it would have to be distributed among the Ursa owners in the state after deducting costs of litigation. If you're lucky it might be a few hundred dollars for each camera in the state.

And there is still the doctrine of "caveat emptor". If the product warranty only covered the camera as delivered and not the availability of turrets in the present or future then it's your own damn fault for buying a pig-in-a-poke.

If the Ursa, as is, was a good camera for you, then be happy. It could have been far worse, you might have a camera that you can't return, can't repair and doesn't get the job done. That would suck.

I do wish that BM would fess up and admit the 4.6k turret is never gonna happen. But if they did that it might have legal consequences for them. So this thread just goes on and on as we discover who the most determined diehards are. The ones that are unable to take their lumps and move on.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:58 am
by Denny Smith
+ 1 Gene, our local Community TV station got one for green screen work, it is amazing, best camera we have used for pulling a chroma key!
Cheere

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:49 am
by Denis Kazlowski
Another question when both the PL and EF 4.6k URSA's were on sale for $8000 on the website next to the 4K you own. Did anyone order any? If so, did those orders get cancelled?

I read through 470+ pages of this section but did not see anyone nagging BM to ship their pre-ordered 4.6k URSA units, unlike other product launches? I may have missed some and unfortunately doing '-mini' in google still Yields results for URSA minis. See pic. It had "Buy Now" buttons.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:08 pm
by Denny Smith
The 4.6 Ursas were never shipped, and all pre-orders were canceled, and deposits refunded by deslers. Then the loyalty upgrade for the UM Pro was announced. There was a separate thread on this a while back.

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:27 am
by robert Hart
One can only hope that a few prototypes of the big URSA 4.6K remain extant like the British Leyland Australia P76 Force Seven that was also not supposed to exist let alone get licenced. I wonder if BM will eventually sell them off as collector's pieces, even if they carry a disclaimer placard as to fitness for purpose.