URSA vs ALEXA

Guys what do you think about that, could the Ursa 4.6K really be on par with the Alexa? It seems pretty much so...

Can both cameras produce decent result? Yes
Are they thus "on par" with each other? No.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My vote is yes, they are on par with each other. I've only used an Amira, not an Alexa though so I may not have a good frame of reference.

Very small difference...

https://mega.nz/#F!3xcSVC6T!m8-fKE8QhUD3hHTB8tYipQ

Arri cameras, traditionally, can take decades of abuse. Alexa is already well established as a tank. I've not touched an Ursa, but I'm sure it's well built. Maybe not $70,000-well-built but I'm sure one could get many years of service with it. But, image aside, the cameras can't be realistically compared. Physically, Ursa doesn't seem to want to be an Alexa, either as it's much more friendly to a one-man crew. Alexa wants two or three people on it. Ursa is a menu-driven camera. The Arris are tactile with tons of buttons and dials so they're very fast. I've not played with any of the second-generation Alexas or Alexa Mini.

Amira is the friendlier of the bunch, but it's still several leagues away from an Ursa. They're similar, image-wise, but in build and handling? Of course, do I really think Arri is worth the price? I don't know: TV stations I've worked for have purchased standard definition Sony broadcast cameras the price of Amira, so it seems about right, actually. Alexa really isn't much more expensive than a fully rigged out Red Epic, and I like Alexa's image and handling more.

You can rent any of these cameras to find out, yourself. I've used each of these on at least a commercial job and didn't have to pay for it, so I'm luckier than some. But, what camera would I realistically own? Ursa packs a lot of punch for the relatively small price and it's user upgradeable like some of the bigger cameras so it's clearly an investment thing. But, if I could buy an Amira or Alexa, I would. At that point I'd also have two Ursas, three Ursa Minis, five or six Sony camcorders with a switcher and...you see where I'm going with this.

Addendum: just to be clear, I operated an Alexa and Red One, DP'd and operated an Amira, Red Epic, Ursa. In my broadcast days I operated big Sony BetaSP, DV and Panasonic P2 ENG cameras for 13 years professionally, in school 2 more years of those old Sony 3/4" videotape cameras...the ones with the umbilical to the external VTR you carried around like a purse? Oh yeah. That's why I like my new cameras all internal. No Odyssey to get 4:2:2 10-bit external only for me. No thank you. If the camera doesn't do 4:2:2 10-bit 50 MB/s internal I'm not interested! lol

It would be interesting if someone with access to both cameras could make several side-by-side clips under various conditions then post them without naming what came from which camera and ask people to identify which is which. Wait until there are a dozen or more answer sets and see how well they did. If the results are not much better than random guesses, then the cameras are in some sense equivalent.

No that's completely missing the point. You can shoot decent looking footage with either camera and grade the shots to look very similar if you want to. But that doesn't mean they are equivalent.

It's about the ergonomics and workflow as much as the end result. One camera may get the results you want easily and quickly whilst the other might get there in the end with an arduous process.

There is also the client perception and company reputation to consider. Arri have a long and solid reputation. Blackmagic are new and haven't got a great reputation in the wider industry.

If the cameras were equivalent then you'd have no argument choosing either one on a shoot. They are clearly not equivalent, suggesting they are is ridiculous.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The only difference I saw in the footage was more contrast on the Alexa. I'm not viewing on a 4K display however so maybe I'm not seeing some other details.. they look very similar to me.

Taking note from what Jason said however about the Alexa, one thing i've always wanted on BMD cameas is more buttons so we don't need to dig through the menus so much. However, I do understand that this adds some cost to production so it's okay, but it is a "nice-to-have" on future cameras.

Very small difference...

https://mega.nz/#F!3xcSVC6T!m8-fKE8QhUD3hHTB8tYipQ

Okay, so trying to see this footage forces one to create a Mega account. Okay, done. I created a free account.

I loaded the Mega app on my iPad and am logged in. But there's no search function to find this entry that you are trying to share:
F!3xcSVC6T!m8-fKE8QhUD3hHTB8tYipQ

So what's the trick to be able to find anything that other people are trying to share? Thanks for any help.

I hope I haven't just fallen for spam and phishing.

The images when lit well are very close. I've seen a rigged Alexa shoulder mounted. It doesn't hold a candle to the URSA Mini in terms of ergonomics for a sole operator. Okay, maybe I'll give it one candle because I'm sure the Alexa is more convenient to power on/off while on your shoulder. Win for URSA Mini on your shoulder.

My point is of course the Alexa is a better camera, but not for every situation.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Imagewise, these cameras seem to be relatively close.
Workflow/handling wise, they are worlds apart.

Arris basically just work, no matter how mean you are to them. And I've been on plenty commercial shoots where one person was handling the Alexa (+ a focus puller of course) alone. Never had an issue with an Arri, as opposed to Red or BM, where sometimes stuff just wouldn't work and nobody knew why...
Also the Arri support network is very superior to that of BMD (at least in Europe, where I live).
But, of course, this comes at a price...

The innards of the camera are only a small fraction of the reason why an Arri runs 50-100K and the BMs are all well sub 10K, it's mostly the stuff around it, that counts.

I'm sure BMD will get there eventually, but that takes experience which they are only now building up in the camera space...

Taking note from what Jason said however about the Alexa, one thing i've always wanted on BMD cameas is more buttons so we don't need to dig through the menus so much. However, I do understand that this adds some cost to production so it's okay, but it is a "nice-to-have" on future cameras.

This is not a new problem, especially in the small form factor cameras such as the sony a6300. The way sony solved the problem is with what they call an "fn" button, which when pressed presents a matrix of user configurable selections which essentially present a menu setting. Not perfect in that the user has to press twice, press "FN" then their user programmed selection, but better than the several presses needed to navigate the menus.

This could be implemented with a firmware change.

An interesting exercise for BMD would be to do what Google has done with the Chromebook Pixel.

Build a camera with no expense spared.
Build a camera that BMD would really like to see on the market.

Comparing an Ursa to an Alexa is both..... a compliment and unfair to BMD.

Arri has been manufacturing cameras for a lot longer than BMD.
Arri can never be accused of manufacturing inexpensive equipment for "Everyperson".

Build and ergonomics aside, the images between the cameras are so damn close. If viewed blind (on YouTube) I can't see how anyone could choose which was which. I'm sure more comparisons will come out that really dig into the image differences, especially in cases where the image is over or underexposed. But still, wow.

Build and ergonomics aside, the images between the cameras are so damn close. If viewed blind (on YouTube) I can't see how anyone could choose which was which. I'm sure more comparisons will come out that really dig into the image differences, especially in cases where the image is over or underexposed. But still, wow.

Yeah. You literally have to side by side them. The 4.6k is really damn good.

Very small difference...

https://mega.nz/#F!3xcSVC6T!m8-fKE8QhUD3hHTB8tYipQ

Okay, so trying to see this footage forces one to create a Mega account. Okay, done. I created a free account.

I loaded the Mega app on my iPad and am logged in. But there's no search function to find this entry that you are trying to share:
F!3xcSVC6T!m8-fKE8QhUD3hHTB8tYipQ

So what's the trick to be able to find anything that other people are trying to share? Thanks for any help.

I hope I haven't just fallen for spam and phishing.

Hi Rick

The link is not spam, but if you have problems download, here is my direct FTP server link:

http://kelemen.r6.hu/_2013%20J%C3%93ZSA ... s%20Alexa/

The folder includes two PNG image and two DRX file for resolve grade.

FJ

Thanks, Ferenc!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I saw this about a week ago

I noticed right off the bat while the images are similar the Alexa had Much smoother high lights and seemed to feel more organic. But that's just my eye.

Shawn Sagady
Projection Designer / Director of Photography

The main difference I saw between the Alexa and the BM 4.6 was the Alexa had cleaner blacks and overall cleaner color. The 4.6 had what looked like some mild IR magenta pollution in some black areas like the model's shirt and still a trace of it in her skin tones, where the Alexa was virtually free from it in the skin tones, but even it did show a touch of IR pollution in her black shirt.

John Brawley, What type of lights were used on your ALEXA vs URSA 4.6 test? Did you use a IR filter on all cameras? Thanks for doing this test! It's amazing they can come so close!

Stop the press! ****I just read your blog and you addressed all my observations! It looks like finding the single best IR filter is going to be key in unlocking the cleanest image from this camera. I'd love to see this same test using the Firecrest NDs that you said you used in many of the other shoots with the 4.6. Do the Firecrests have the IR filter built into the ND?

Has anyone had experience with Breakthrough Photography's ND filters? They guarantee their filters are the sharpest and most neutral or they'll give you back 110% of your money: http://breakthrough.photography/performance-gallery/

Benton created a new thread with the same post so please don't reply to the above post.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

This is a test situation and all cameras, including Canon ML, would look fine. Is there any test on trying conditions like when you underexpose inadvertently or like when highlights burn?
We can actually compare two cameras on those conditions.

I just watched this test in UHD on my 5K iMac. The URSA Mini 4.6K comes really close to the Alexa, which is great. However, the highlight on the wall rolls off better in the test with the Alexa. And then the Alexa also handles those flashes better. However, I still think that the URSA Mini does a fantastic job in this test. I still love using it and the images it produces.

Benton created a new thread with the same post so please don't reply to the above post.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks Rick,
Please pardon the duplication, but I felt that finding the best ND for the 4.6 is too important to leave it buried in a different topic subject line. I'd love to see a dedicated topic thread created just for the purpose of hosting tests of ND filters for the 4.6k.

No criticism intended on my part, Benton, I just saw you created another thread for Breakthrough Photography. A dedicated thread for testing UV/IR/ND filters would b very handy.

In the last few years there's so many new players. That AbelCine video that compares filters has done more harm than good when people apply the conclusions to sensors BMD has used.

Now we have new filters and new sensors, we need to determine which work best and cause the least extra effort in post. I'd love to see how Firecrest, NiSi, X3, Hoya ProND, and so on perform in different situations. The best filters are fairly costly for non-professionals to buy just to test as if we were Shane Hurlbut! I don't mind the cost, but I need to buy with some confidence in how they perform.

We've come to the conclusions repeatedly that modern digital cameras are all capable of producing a very good image when lit well, but we still can't categorically state which filter works best on which firms' sensors under which lighting situation.

Ketch Rossi sold every ND filter he owned and only relies on NiSi. That's a great vote of confidence if you are shooting on a modern Dragon sensor. Shane Hurlbut always manages to recommend Tiffen ND filters for reasons I can only wonder. On some of the previous BMD sensors, a lot of indie effort has gone into showing how Hoya and Firecrest perform. The X3 deserves a look too.

Let's hope this year, people will be trying the various new breed of filters (and the oldtimers too) on the newest sensor we know, BMD 4.6K. They need a thread to record their tests or conclusions.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk