Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

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Tommaso Alvisi

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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostThu Jun 29, 2017 10:27 am

If I configure the Shogun with "RED EPIC" settings it even catch the RED triggering flag from the SDI signal! ;-P
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Archibaldo de la Cruz

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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostThu Aug 24, 2017 8:49 pm

John Fishback, did you ever find a way to recognize timecode and genlock reference signals simultaneously through the single Ref/TC BNC input on the Ursa Mini? The Timecode Systems Ultrasync One can output both. However, I can't get the camera display to read "REF" (gunlock) and "EXT" (timecode) at the same time. The manual says the camera can switch "between" the two on page 40, implying it is an either/or situation. Can any BMD engineers enlighten us?
Last edited by Archibaldo de la Cruz on Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostThu Aug 24, 2017 8:58 pm

Archibaldo de la Cruz wrote:John Fishback, did you ever find a way to recognize timecode and gunlock reference signals simultaneously through the single Ref/TC BNC input on the Ursa Mini? The Timecode Systems Ultrasync One can output both. However, I can't get the camera display to read "REF" (gunlock) and "EXT" (timecode) at the same time. The manual says the camera can switch "between" the two on page 40, implying it is an either/or situation. Can any BMD engineers enlighten us?


I'm testing this next week prior to a 5-camera shoot. However, I know that you feed ref to the Program SDI bnc in. Then in the Setup Settings page 2 select the Reference Source to Program. Feed your Timecode to the tc in bnc and you should be good to go.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostFri Aug 25, 2017 2:13 am

Jon O'Neill wrote:Is there anyway to trigger record on a Blackmagic video assist when:
Ursa mini 4.6k > SDI to Teradek Bolt 300 TX > Teradek bolt 300 RX to SDI > Blackmagic video assist?
Is timecode not sent via the SDI?


Jon Yes, you need to set the VA to T/C trigger record, and set the camera to T/C Record (instead of T/C Run, which outputs a continuous T/C. Once you make these two settings, it should work. Also you need a CFast card in the Mini to get the Record button to do anything.
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Last edited by Denny Smith on Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostFri Aug 25, 2017 6:44 am

you need to set the VA to T/C trigger record, and set the camera to T/C Record (instead of T/C Run, which outputs a continuous T/C.


Denny, I'm not sure what "VA" is. I have a sync generator, but I don't get "REF" in the viewfinder when I do what Fishback suggests, which is to plug the sync generator into the SDI in and hit "Program" in setup. I only get the "REF" indicator when the sync generator is plugged into the REF/TC BNC in and the Setup is on "External." Where do I find T/C trigger record and T/C run?

Still not getting how one can input genlock and TC simultaneously.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostFri Aug 25, 2017 8:10 pm

VA = Blackmagic Video Assist monitor/ recorder.


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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostSat Aug 26, 2017 5:43 am

When I sync timecode with the Movie Slate 7app on the big URSA, it syncs right away. But I have yet to get the URSA MINI PRO to work at all.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostSat Aug 26, 2017 7:26 am

robertmanningjr, I had the same problem getting the Ursa Mini to take timecode from the Mozegear TIG28 until someone adjusted the output to maximum. Now, I use Timecode Systems Ultrasync Ones. At first, as with the Mozegear, I couldn't get the Ursa Mini to hear the signal. I found a workaround, described below. Here's how I understand it (please correct me if this is wrong}: BMD made a compromise when they combined genlock sync and timecode into one port instead of providing two; therefore, the signals from some timecode boxes won't be adequate. It's explained this way on the Timecode Systems website as it affects their products:

The URSA has a dual function LTC IN /GENLOCK port. Rather than being a standard high impedance LTC input, it is a 75ohm input instead because of the Genlock functionality. This means that the TCS LTC output may not have enough current to produce a high enough LTC signal for the 75ohm load camera input.

There is a workaround however, simply use the SYNC output of the :minitrx+ or UltraSync ONE instead and select in the menu LTC out instead of Work Clock or Genlock. Select HIGH output level. The port is designed to drive a 75ohm load, so the LTC will be a healthy strong level.


https://support.timecodesystems.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000803171-Why-does-my-Blackmagic-Design-URSA-camera-not-see-LTC-from-my-minitrx-or-UltraSync-ONE-
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostSat Aug 26, 2017 12:36 pm

Archibaldo de la Cruz wrote:robertmanningjr, I had the same problem getting the Ursa Mini to take timecode from the Mozegear TIG28 until someone adjusted the output to maximum. Now, I use Timecode Systems Ultrasync Ones. At first, as with the Mozegear, I couldn't get the Ursa Mini to hear the signal. I found a workaround, described below. Here's how I understand it (please correct me if this is wrong}: BMD made a compromise when they combined genlock sync and timecode into one port instead of providing two; therefore, the signals from some timecode boxes won't be adequate. It's explained this way on the Timecode Systems website as it affects their products:

The URSA has a dual function LTC IN /GENLOCK port. Rather than being a standard high impedance LTC input, it is a 75ohm input instead because of the Genlock functionality. This means that the TCS LTC output may not have enough current to produce a high enough LTC signal for the 75ohm load camera input.

There is a workaround however, simply use the SYNC output of the :minitrx+ or UltraSync ONE instead and select in the menu LTC out instead of Work Clock or Genlock. Select HIGH output level. The port is designed to drive a 75ohm load, so the LTC will be a healthy strong level.


https://support.timecodesystems.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000803171-Why-does-my-Blackmagic-Design-URSA-camera-not-see-LTC-from-my-minitrx-or-UltraSync-ONE-


I will try a higher volume right away. Thank you. I definitely don't want to have to buy another piece of equipment though.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostSat Aug 26, 2017 5:20 pm

Thank you for the suggestions, but it didn't work and the signal is kicking out a lot of volume so I have no idea. Definitely a problem with the timecode input not recognizing a strong signal. Tested it on the big URSA again to make sure and the timecode in and out synced right away. This definitely has to be fixed. Can't operate efficiently without timecode.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostSat Aug 26, 2017 5:51 pm

Tommaso Alvisi wrote:If I configure the Shogun with "RED EPIC" settings it even catch the RED triggering flag from the SDI signal! ;-P

This is good to know. I will try it. Thank you.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostMon Aug 28, 2017 1:16 pm

I haven't heard back from tech support, and I want to know if anyone has any more suggestions for me to get this to work OR is it a camera issue where I need to send it back (I've had it less than a week). I have a shoot coming up and need this solved in the next week and a half.

The last thing I tried was connecting the URSA Mini Pro's REF IN/TC IN to my URSA's TC OUT and still nothing happened. No external sync on the URSA Mini.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostMon Aug 28, 2017 10:20 pm

Just tested timecode & sync with an URSA, URSA Mini & URSA Mini Pro. We fed ref to all the cameras and the clock using a video DA. Clock was a Rosendahl mif4 timed to ref. Its timecode out was distributed with an audio DA. Ref was fed directly to the URSA 4K, and to SDI In on the Minis. The Minis were set to see ref from the Program (SDI In) bnc. Timecode went directly to the URSA 4K tc in and to the Minis tc/ref in. Every camera synced.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostTue Aug 29, 2017 9:58 pm

John, I'm glad everything worked out for you and that is good to hear. Unfortunately, I am still in the same situation without a resolution. Tech support never got back to me so I called this morning. I was on hold for 40 minutes and talked to someone who couldn't figure out the problem. He told me his product manager would call me when they got in (said about 45minutes). It's been 6 hours and no return call. Now I'm on hold again trying to speak to someone again.

This is par for the course when it comes to my experience with Blackmagic Design so I don't know why I should expect differently.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostTue Aug 29, 2017 10:38 pm

robertmanningjr wrote:John, I'm glad everything worked out for you and that is good to hear. Unfortunately, I am still in the same situation without a resolution. Tech support never got back to me so I called this morning. I was on hold for 40 minutes and talked to someone who couldn't figure out the problem. He told me his product manager would call me when they got in (said about 45minutes). It's been 6 hours and no return call. Now I'm on hold again trying to speak to someone again.

This is par for the course when it comes to my experience with Blackmagic Design so I don't know why I should expect differently.


Just talked to a gentleman, and it was a great experience, who was knowledgeable and helpful. I was able to jam sync the mini with the big URSA which is a great workaround until he investigates further. The URSA has to be recording to output timecode to the URSA mini. That worked. The URSA doesn't have to be recording to sync to my slate if it has been previously synced with the slate. Don't totally understand why, but the tech rep did and that's what counts. At least, I have the beginning of an answer.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostSat Sep 02, 2017 4:47 am

Archibaldo de la Cruz wrote:robertmanningjr, I had the same problem getting the Ursa Mini to take timecode from the Mozegear TIG28 until someone adjusted the output to maximum. Now, I use Timecode Systems Ultrasync Ones. At first, as with the Mozegear, I couldn't get the Ursa Mini to hear the signal. I found a workaround, described below. Here's how I understand it (please correct me if this is wrong}: BMD made a compromise when they combined genlock sync and timecode into one port instead of providing two; therefore, the signals from some timecode boxes won't be adequate. It's explained this way on the Timecode Systems website as it affects their products:

The URSA has a dual function LTC IN /GENLOCK port. Rather than being a standard high impedance LTC input, it is a 75ohm input instead because of the Genlock functionality. This means that the TCS LTC output may not have enough current to produce a high enough LTC signal for the 75ohm load camera input.

There is a workaround however, simply use the SYNC output of the :minitrx+ or UltraSync ONE instead and select in the menu LTC out instead of Work Clock or Genlock. Select HIGH output level. The port is designed to drive a 75ohm load, so the LTC will be a healthy strong level.


https://support.timecodesystems.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000803171-Why-does-my-Blackmagic-Design-URSA-camera-not-see-LTC-from-my-minitrx-or-UltraSync-ONE-


Thank you for everyone's advice on my problem. And big thanks to Dmitry Kitsov at Blackmagic Support. He went above and beyond. He did a lot of trouble shooting and turns out the Mini needs a line level cable. The cable was hard to find, but that was it. I also found that most audio sync cables (the kind I needed anyway) are attenuated cables and mostly considered 'timecode-in' cables. So once I plugged in the line level cable the Mini synced right away even with the volume on a lower setting. The big URSA will work with an attenuated cable, but the Mini will not.

Anyway, glad it was solved.
Last edited by robertmanningjr on Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostSat Sep 02, 2017 2:56 pm

Robert, do you have a web link for the correct cable?


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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostSun Sep 03, 2017 2:13 am

rick.lang wrote:Robert, do you have a web link for the correct cable?


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http://www.kvconnection.com/product-p/km-iphone-bnc-tco.htm

They have a good selection of different kinds of connectors.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostSun Sep 03, 2017 6:03 am

Thanks, Robert.


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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostSun Sep 03, 2017 4:55 pm

I used special T/C true 75-ohm cables from Apogee and Black Lion, which are essentially HD-SDI cables terminated with either BNC or RCA connections as required. The Canare HD SDI 75-Ochoa cable would also make good T/C cables, and can be terminated as required.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostMon Sep 04, 2017 3:32 am

I need to do some more testing, but the preliminary testing shows that the URSA Mini Pro will not hold jam synced timecode when the reference source is set to "external" in the setup menu. And when I say it won't hold timecode, I mean it won't hold it for an hour. Not even close. You have to keep the external timecode source attached at all times.

Now as Tim mentioned previously, if you set the Mini Pro to "internal" and jam sync, it will hold timecode for a solid 8 hours, BUT you have to either keep the camera on for 8 hours OR jam sync whenever you turn the camera off and back on (not ideal).

The big URSA has the same problem EXCEPT, the big URSA has timecode out. Because of this, I can jam sync my slate or audio recorder from the Big URSA. I can turn the Big URSA on and off without drift or problems because it is using the internal clock.

Timecode out would have been much more beneficial on the URSA Mini (I think). The improved internal clock is problematic/useless if you're out in the field.

I was also thinking about purchasing the Sound Devices Mix Pre 6, but since that only has a TC in, I don't know if that is the best choice.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostTue Sep 05, 2017 10:33 am

I need to do some more testing, but the preliminary testing shows that the URSA Mini Pro will not hold jam synced timecode when the reference source is set to "external" in the setup menu. And when I say it won't hold timecode, I mean it won't hold it for an hour. Not even close. You have to keep the external timecode source attached at all times.


robertmanningjr, have you tried any other brands of timecode generators? It would be worth doing to find out why your camera is behaving that way. You may have a timecode box that's incompatible with the impedance-compromised design of the UM 4.6's TC/Ref in jack.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostWed Sep 06, 2017 12:43 pm

Archibaldo de la Cruz wrote:
I need to do some more testing, but the preliminary testing shows that the URSA Mini Pro will not hold jam synced timecode when the reference source is set to "external" in the setup menu. And when I say it won't hold timecode, I mean it won't hold it for an hour. Not even close. You have to keep the external timecode source attached at all times.


robertmanningjr, have you tried any other brands of timecode generators? It would be worth doing to find out why your camera is behaving that way. You may have a timecode box that's incompatible with the impedance-compromised design of the UM 4.6's TC/Ref in jack.


It's not a timecode generator problem at this point. If I leave the generator connected, everything is fine. The problem is if I jam sync timecode. And that's not a generator problem, that's a camera limitation. A timecode menu in the camera would be helpful and it's odd that it is missing, but firmware is not going to improve a camera hardware limitation as I understand it.

However, if your camera holds jam synced external timecode, please let me know.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostWed Sep 06, 2017 4:01 pm

Jam sync timecode drifting is an issue with most Pro cameras I have used, and is a hardware limitation of the internal sync clock. The better the clock, the more accurate the TC holds, and is less of own issue (but still an issue) with the more expensive Cine cameras. This is why they use a wireless (or wired) sync solution all regulated my a very accurate external sync clock/generator.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostSun Sep 10, 2017 5:03 pm

I'm new to timecode, but trying to figure out how it works. I have a big URSA and an UM46K (firmware 4.4). I've tried syncing the cameras with a BNC cable from TC out on the URSA to TC in on UM46K, leaving the cable connected when recording. I've then tried to create multicam clips, having Resolve using timecode to sync the clips. They get offset by 3 frames.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostSun Sep 10, 2017 6:38 pm

Mattias Kristiansson wrote:I'm new to timecode, but trying to figure out how it works. I have a big URSA and an UM46K (firmware 4.4). I've tried syncing the cameras with a BNC cable from TC out on the URSA to TC in on UM46K, leaving the cable connected when recording. I've then tried to create multicam clips, having Resolve using timecode to sync the clips. They get offset by 3 frames.


This seems to be a common problem and the problem seems to be occurring on the Mini side. Try again. I have the same setup and when I tried, everything worked. I will do it again since we have the same setup, bring the files into Resolve and let you know how it turns out.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostSun Sep 10, 2017 9:51 pm

Mattias Kristiansson wrote:I'm new to timecode, but trying to figure out how it works. I have a big URSA and an UM46K (firmware 4.4). I've tried syncing the cameras with a BNC cable from TC out on the URSA to TC in on UM46K, leaving the cable connected when recording. I've then tried to create multicam clips, having Resolve using timecode to sync the clips. They get offset by 3 frames.



It's always best to have the correct workflow however..... For multicam editing, it's pretty easy to sync to an inpoint instead of timecode and be on your way. The fact that you know it's 3 frames only makes it easier. >>>I, moving on.

Really I'd be surprised if you could get perfect tc given that you have the master cam doing a DtoA and the slave doing an AtoD. 3 frames seems realistic especially if the cameras aren't gen locked, given that time travel is currently impossible at least 1 frame of delay would be the minimum without ext reference.
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Re: Usra Mini 4.6k timecode issues

PostWed Sep 13, 2017 8:54 am

But really... 3 frames equals about 1/8 of a second, that's like an eternity for an a/d or d/a converter... If I feed the signal from an URSA into an UM46K, and the files get offset by 3 frames, there must be something wrong somewhere. Is this a software bug? A hardware bug? If so, it should be possible to do a software workaround to fix it. Could Tim Schumann perhaps enlighten us on the subject?
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