Ursa Mini 4.6 - PL or EF - opinions wanted...

Title says it all...

Have previously filmed with various DSLRs and BMPCC but it is soon time to make a step up. Considering I have shot with only Nikon mount lenses any Ursa purchase will require new glass.

So what you guys do? I was thinking PL with 1 or 2 cheaper PL lenses (Xeen for example - other can be rented on a job basis) on top of the purchase won't kill me.

But are there arguments for EF mount?

As I said - new glass will be required for either purchase.

Thanks
Chris

The PL version gives you a real Cine lens mount, can be shimmed if necessary, and gives you a B4 lens option for some of the older, but nice 2/3rds B4 mount Cine lenses that are going for real small prices.
B4 mount lens is good for up to the 2K window, tested by Rick.

Good inexpensive PL Cone lenses are becoming available, like the Xeen (rehoused still lens) or better yet, the new SLR Magic PL lens set, a true Cine lens, not a rehouse job, and used Zeiss PL CP lenses are available.

That said, you Nikon lenses could be used on the EF mount version, I am in the same boat, with a set of Zeiss ZF (Nikon mount) Cine Moded lenses. You can even have the Nikon mount replaced with a EF mount. I thought about this, but decided, I would go with a PL mount, as I have Zeiss Suoer Speeds, PL mount, that could be used in the 2K window, and add full frame PL Cine lenses down the road.

After working with PL lenses, I would not go back to a still camera mount, Nikon or Canon EF, the PL mount is sooo much better! Now the PL lenses are not sooo expensive either!

Cheers

My personal take on the difference is:

With PL you have the possibility to rent the highest quality lenses and glass available on the planet. These are products well suited for cinematography. Your options can be Cooke, Zeiss master primes as well as other vintage lenses that gives you a certain feel to the image.
But none of these are well suited for run'n gun or fast one man band jobs.

With EF you have the possibility to get the absolutely best solution for run'n gun one man band jobs, for example where you need to film a full day and rarely put the camera down. You will also have access to prime lenses up to a certain level. Like Canon's CN-E or XEEN, or Zeiss Compact....
But you will not have access to all the really high end glass or vintage options you get with PL.


For me that do both jobs where I just need to tag along and spray as much as I can, and also well planned shoots with some sort of team consisting of more than me, I am stuck in the middle.

For now I go C300 and EF for my quick gigs, and rent equipment for my more cinematography styled assignments.

As Denny points out, it's a completely new approach shooting (passive here) PL mount, but the Mini offers that B4 replacement mount option and there may be an alternate EF replacement mount coming soon for the PL camera. The B4 is good using up to the Mini 4.6K 2K 16:9 2048x1152 which is now my standard shooting resolution in either raw or ProRes.

Going back to the PL mount, there are many old and new options. I've gone with acquiring SLR Magic APO T2.1 PL primes as they are slowly released. Given budget limitations, the slow release of new APO primes allows me to save up for the next lenses. Using the old second hand Fujinon HA20x7.8B M10 B4 mount zoom has been a pleasure in the meantime throughout 2016; by late 2017, there could be a decent set of APO primes (50mm, 85mm, 25mm, 32mm, 135mm, and possibly something like an 18mm or 20mm to complete the set). I'm hoping for a 65mm or 100mm Macro eventually but SLR Magic hasn't committed to building a macro which may be very challenging or impossible for them in terms of staying true to their physical housing design criteria so aperture and/or housing will change (that's very possibly true of the 18-20mm too).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Also Rick, Tokina is remaking some of their zooms into PL mount true CIne zooms, that are parfocal and not expensive like the Canon PL Cine zooms.
Cheers

I got the PL mount because it offers a greater range of choices.

For my event work, I'm using a Fuji 2/3" ENG lens with servo grip. The BM 2/3" mount is excellent value for money, and with the ability for the PL model to communicate with and power the lens, makes for a versatile rig. It's shoulder mounted, and something I can carry around all day with ease.

I can change the mount and use my Sony CineAlta primes - outstanding value for money. Colour matched. Consistent T stop. Beautiful build quality.

And to top it off, Illya at Hot Rod cameras in currently working on the first prototype EF mount replacement for the UM mini. It'll be a passive mount but that means I can use my full set of vintage Zeiss Contax lenses - all manual, de clicked and converted to EF with leitax mounts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

@Rick

"there may be an alternate EF replacement mount coming soon for the PL camera"

Thats a hot information. Do you wish that or are there some serious rumors ?
Because i have to decide at the moment. The B4 is also a great opportunity and the "Ursa 4,6PL-Models" are easier to get what i know at the moment.
To know that there will be a possibiliy to use also EF Lenses on the PL Ursa4,6 would make my decision much more easier.

Thanks for all the replies, I will just say that you all have more or less confirmed everything I was thinking.

I love working with PL lenses - so when the time comes it looks like that's what it will be. It will also be interesting to see what the Hot Rod EF mount will be like (wonder if he would think of making a nikon mount).

Thanks again everyone.

Chris

@Rick
"there may be an alternate EF replacement mount coming soon for the PL camera"
Thats a hot information. Do you wish that or are there some serious rumors ?
Because i have to decide at the moment. The B4 is also a great opportunity and the "Ursa 4,6PL-Models" are easier to get what i know at the moment.
To know that there will be a possibiliy to use also EF Lenses on the PL Ursa4,6 would make my decision much more easier.

Illya at HotRod Cameras in LA, is looking at making a dumb EF mount for the UM PL camera. He measured the camera FFD with the mount removed, and thinks there is enough room for the EF mount.

Paul, as Chris mentioned, Illya Friedman of Hot Rod Cameras in Los Angeles is in the process of designing and testing a passive EF mount that can replace the URSA Mini PL mount. Granted many of Canon's EF/EFS lenses are electronic, but there are still many good passive lenses in that mount available that people may already own.

The last report was quite recent and that mentioned Illya was waiting for the availability of his CNC machine which as currently busy with another manufacturing project. I suspect we will know very soon, within the month hopefully. As you know September is a very busy month for camera vendors and retailers with several international shows around this timeframe. I would think Hot Rod Cameras would love to have their answer re the passive EF mount by then when the world is watching out for announcements of new cameras.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Chris, not sure about the Nikon mount as a replacement for the PL mount, but it has been mentioned. I think it will depend on the success of the passive EF mount. If not, a Nikon->EF adapter may be an option although perhaps not as good as a 'native' Nikon mount replacement for the PL mount.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Rick,

Was thinking about the Nikon-->EF adapter route as well, but as you said the best option would be a "native" Nikon-->PL.

Funny because I know a lot of people who use Nikon glass on EF mounts using an adapter, so you would hope that there would maybe be enough demand.

A Nikon mount would work for me also, as I have a set of Ziess ZF lenses, that have been Cine Moded.
As Rick mentioned, time will tell.

"there may be an alternate EF replacement mount coming soon for the PL camera"

Thats a hot information. Do you wish that or are there some serious rumors ?
Because i have to decide at the moment. The B4 is also a great opportunity and the "Ursa 4,6PL-Models" are easier to get what i know at the moment.

As I mentioned in an earlier response, this is not a rumour, but actually happening.

Here's a thread I created for Illya to gauge interest in a passive EF mount. I also created a thread over at BMDUser, which had an even bigger response of people interested.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49138

Provide a response on the thread if you're interested and I'll add your name to the list. I'm hoping to hear some news in the next couple of weeks from Illya. Any news will be posted on that thread.

Curious... is there any possibility of using a dumb EF to PL adapter on the Ursa Mini EF, or is it physically impossible?

Curious... is there any possibility of using a dumb EF to PL adapter on the Ursa Mini EF, or is it physically impossible?

No
https://thecinelens.com/2012/02/09/canon-ef-to-pl-is-it-possible/

Curious... is there any possibility of using a dumb EF to PL adapter on the Ursa Mini EF, or is it physically impossible?

Depends on what you mean.

The article Paul has linked to describes changing the mount on a native EF mount lens to PL mount. As the article clearly explains, this is a very difficult and complex procedure. Not impossible, but it may end up being so expensive that it's simply not worth the effort. Unless you REALLY love that EF lens, it may be cheaper (and simpler) to just purchase a native PL mount lens instead.

If your question meant: can you use a PL lens on the URSA mini EF camera with a passive adaptor? Then the answer is yes, this is possible. You may not be able to use every PL mount lens ever made, but there are many lenses this will work with. The reason why is PL focal flange distance is 8mm longer than EF. In other words, 8mm of space in which to add an adaptor.

EF = 44mm focal flange distance
PL = 52mm focal flange distance

A couple of things to consider when doing this.
1. PL lenses are typically heavy, so you'll need to add extra support for the lens to take strain off the EF mount (designed for still lenses).
2. How far does the rear element of the PL lens protrude? Some protrude so much you may hit internal parts of the camera (especially true of EF DSLR cameras) and/or you'll not get anything close to telemetric projection onto the sensor.

Curious... is there any possibility of using a dumb EF to PL adapter on the Ursa Mini EF, or is it physically impossible?

It is possible to make the dumb EF to PL adapter. Problem is that the diameter of back part of PL mount is bigger than EF so 99% of existing PL lenses would not fit. And the last percent is not worthy the effort. You can of course machine the PL lenses to fit the PL/EF adapter but it's still not worthy the effort because you are just afraid of doing so to your precious lenses.

I really don't care about EF or PL. I have no money for PL or good EF lenses, and the budget EF lenses are plastic toys. And vtg M42 lenses are adaptable to EF, and it looks possible to machine a replacement M42 mount for PL camera.

The PL mount version has a removable mount, so the idea that other mounts could come ala Aja Cion, Red Epic or Arri Alexa, etc, either by third party (ex, hot rod camera) or by BMD, herself, stands a much better chance of actually happening than being able to somehow mod the fixed EF mount version. As it is, there is definitely already a B4 mount option for the PL camera. A dumb EF mount (or Nikon, etc) might just be possible and, if so, will greatly increase the lens options for the PL camera.

As an aside: I don't own an BMUM46KPL, yet........but it's been however-long-its-been and it's still THE most compelling cinema camera on the market; partly for the reason noted above.