Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

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CptZero

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Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSat Feb 16, 2013 3:03 am

in my usual event coverage, i usually make a slow motion post edit trademark in my videos, and getting a 30fps footage usually makes a stutter effect in my slow motion portion especially if i go down to 25% of the FPS of the video portion.

just wanted to know because i am buying the black magic cinema camera and i am hoping that i would not buy a new one in the next year for a 60fps capable new version BMCC.
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSat Feb 16, 2013 3:07 am

look for 120fps with in 6 months
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Sammah

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSat Feb 16, 2013 3:31 am

I personally think it would be possible at a lower resolution. Otherwise the fan would be working double time to cool down that sensor. But I could also be wrong, and hardware could be holding it back. Either way, I do hope we can get higher FPS!
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John Brawley

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSat Feb 16, 2013 4:20 am

Darryl Gregory wrote:look for 120fps with in 6 months


Sorry. But no way this is happening with the current BMCC.

jb
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSat Feb 16, 2013 4:33 am

John Brawley wrote:
Darryl Gregory wrote:look for 120fps with in 6 months


Sorry. But no way this is happening with the current BMCC.

jb


Never say never JB, But yeah I was being facetious :roll:
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Marshall Harrington

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSat Feb 16, 2013 4:13 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Darryl Gregory wrote:look for 120fps with in 6 months


Sorry. But no way this is happening with the current BMCC.

jb


John,

I asked this question in an earlier post. Could you elaborate so we learn?

Thanks.
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CptZero

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSat Feb 16, 2013 5:35 pm

thanks guys for the conversation but i am not getting any informative response.

just wanted to know if the 60fps is hardware base upgrade or it can be made on firmware update.

i just want to know if that would be possible soon in this model. the camera is already perfect for its class/price ratio and the quality if output is really a no brainer. just hope the guys from BMCC would be awesome to provide us at least a decent 720p 60fps for a decent slow motion action.

cheers to all BMCC community. :)
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John Brawley

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSun Feb 17, 2013 12:59 pm

MarshallHarrington wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
Darryl Gregory wrote:look for 120fps with in 6 months


Sorry. But no way this is happening with the current BMCC.

jb


John,

I asked this question in an earlier post. Could you elaborate so we learn?

Thanks.


It can't happen because of many limitations that concatenate together.

The whole camera system has to be designed to do 60 FPS. It's not like flicking a magic switch. The sensor needs a dramatically higher degree of cooling. The internal processing demands on the chips skyrockets. This also adds heat. The SSD's need to be able to keep up with the data rate. Even going to smaller sizes or cineform STILL requires computing power to do it and there's no provision for it in the design.

The camera is also actively cooled (like an Alexa) and as the sensor heat goes up, so does the power demand for the Peltier cooling system. This creates a MASSIVE drain on the power. With the extra processing also heating up the chassis it also creates a more difficult heat gradient for the cooling system to overcome.

So you see, the camera has to be DESIGNED to do 60 FPS. It's a whole lot of things that run you past the power and processing limitations of the camera.

jb
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adamroberts

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSun Feb 17, 2013 1:10 pm

Even the PIX240, HyperDeck Shuttle and Atomos Ninja/Samurai can't do 1080p60 because the processing depends and data rates are to high for the SSDs.
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSun Feb 17, 2013 2:11 pm

How about a 15s burst at 60fps so any overheating is limited?
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSun Feb 17, 2013 2:35 pm

How does it work with a RED Like 120 FPS or even 600 ? There RedMag's are also SSD's right?
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSun Feb 17, 2013 3:43 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:How does it work with a RED Like 120 FPS or even 600 ? There RedMag's are also SSD's right?


Red uses proprietary media. A 480GB Red media card costs $2500 or so.
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSun Feb 17, 2013 3:51 pm

Samjack wrote:How about a 15s burst at 60fps so any overheating is limited?


Even at 720p, this would be great.
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSun Feb 17, 2013 4:36 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:How does it work with a RED Like 120 FPS or even 600 ? There RedMag's are also SSD's right?


Red raw is compressed. Nowhere near the 5mb/frame that the BMCC does. You can choose your compression ratio on the red which also determines your max frame rate. You can't get 150fps at full quality. The red media is proprietary, but I'm not sure how much faster it is than SSD, if any faster at all. Red loves to charge a premium for their stuff. But on the flip side, you buy it and it works (most of the time). The freedom for BMC users to use 3rd party ssd media, comes with possibly a loss of reliability. So far, so good for me but time will tell....
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSun Feb 17, 2013 5:47 pm

A RedMag should / would be a SSD or CF card solution. Build into a special enclosure so you NEED those things to record.

Would you rather be paying 800 dollars for a special SDD from BMD or a 300 ~ 500 for a fast normal one..

I don't believe that redmags are faster in write and read than a high end SSD.

* Did a search and can't find any hard data on read and write speeds.. So i'm not sure about my case.
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSun Feb 17, 2013 7:40 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:How does it work with a RED Like 120 FPS or even 600 ? There RedMag's are also SSD's right?


Did you ever hear a RED?

;-)
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostSun Feb 17, 2013 7:42 pm

nomad wrote:
Did you ever hear a RED?

;-)


I've heard about their fans... I may, it's not certain, get a chance to crew on a film being shot with a Scarlet-X this summer, so I might get to find out first hand :)
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CptZero

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostMon Feb 18, 2013 5:46 am

wow so its hardware based for a 60fps?

why cant they just put it in lol damn so any way around it to make a slow motion a stutter free motion?
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostMon Feb 18, 2013 7:47 am

CptZero wrote:wow so its hardware based for a 60fps?

why cant they just put it in lol damn so any way around it to make a slow motion a stutter free motion?


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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostMon Feb 18, 2013 9:54 am

John Brawley
Sorry. But no way this is happening with the current BMCC.


JB it can be done in bursts! Like the Sony FS700

It can be done, and it is being done, And We Want It Done Soon!

We know Canon & GoPro can do it at prices we can afford...
Hmm Is there a conspiracy theory going on?, We know that BMD can do it with the BMCC, But Maybe we need More Consumer Demand, They listen when we buy, or they listen if we don't buy?
So lets make some noise people!

We are driving all the camera sales and designs, We just need to let them know what we want!
Last edited by Darryl Gregory on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostMon Feb 18, 2013 10:02 am

Darryl Gregory wrote:
John Brawley
Sorry. But no way this is happening with the current BMCC.


Yet Canon & GoPro can do it at prices we can afford...Hmm There is a conspiracy theory going on, Just without any mention of BMC, we need more Consumer Demand, They listen when we buy, or don't buy so lets make some noise people!


Canon C100 and C300 only do 30p and compressed 4:2:0.

The GoPro is compressed 4:2:0 .h264.

Not really "Cinema" now is it?
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostMon Feb 18, 2013 10:14 am

adamroberts wrote:
Darryl Gregory wrote:
John Brawley
Sorry. But no way this is happening with the current BMCC.


Yet Canon & GoPro can do it at prices we can afford...Hmm There is a conspiracy theory going on, Just without any mention of BMC, we need more Consumer Demand, They listen when we buy, or don't buy so lets make some noise people!


Canon C100 and C300 only do 30p and compressed 4:2:0.

The GoPro is compressed 4:2:0 .h264.

Not really "Cinema" now is it?


lol we can argue till the sun rises, but the fact is it can be done...Compressed or not the ability
to get 60 or even 120fps on the BMCC is possible.

Rumor has it the Canon 5D Mark III firmware update will have clean HDMI out...
Not 10bit 4.2.2 but still clean at 8bit,
and...@ 1280 x 720: 60 fps, 50 fps
also the rest
@ 1920 x 1080: 30 fps, 25 fps, 24 fps
@ 640 x 480: 30 fps, 25 fps
Last edited by Darryl Gregory on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Remo Pini

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostMon Feb 18, 2013 10:21 am

Whatever you do, I would base your buying decision on the CURRENT set of capabilities and NOT hope for some additional feature in the future which may or may not ever come.

Is it technically feasible to get the camera to record bursts of higher speed than 30p? Probably, depending on how much memory and CPU there is in the camera (and my guess is that they put in the minimum required to make it work, as everything else would drive up the cost needlessly).

Is it going to happen? Maybe, maybe not... people want Dreamcolor compatible 444 coming out of the Decklinks for ages and it's not happening.

There are some features that are actually required for this camera to be usable that aren't implemented yet, such as a working audio interface (that silly auto gain/cutoff crap is just plain horrible), audio meters, SSD capacity indicator, lenses that actually focus to infinity, lenses that actually work (see the sad list of incompatible lenses), maybe offloading through TB and on camera media management...

Once they get all of that out of the way, maybe they will look at "luxury" requirements that go beyond what they promised. But really, why should they? The camera is already "good enough" and nobody goes to Canon and asks them when they will update the C300 through firmware to support 60p...
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostMon Feb 18, 2013 10:24 am

remopini wrote:nobody goes to Canon and asks them when they will update the C300 through firmware to support 60p...


You wanna bet? It's asked a thousand times a day I'm sure!
But they act like their deaf in both ears!
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostMon Feb 18, 2013 11:42 am

Darryl Gregory wrote:
John Brawley
Sorry. But no way this is happening with the current BMCC.


JB it can be done in bursts! Like the Sony FS700

It can be done, and it is being done, And We Want It Done Soon!

We know Canon & GoPro can do it at prices we can afford...
Hmm Is there a conspiracy theory going on?, We know that BMD can do it with the BMCC, But Maybe we need More Consumer Demand, They listen when we buy, or they listen if we don't buy?
So lets make some noise people!

We are driving all the camera sales and designs, We just need to let them know what we want!



Give it up Daryle. No amount of your hopeful happy clappy well wishing changes the reality.

Both canon and gopro were DESIGNED with those frame rates in mind.

I'm sorry for being blunt but you don't know what you're talking about. It's not like BMD sit there holding back a feature that would sell a bucket load more cameras.

This idea that you keep perpetuating that a mere software update will somehow enable a DOUBLING of the frame rate is just your wishful thinking. Its very far from being likely.

The BMD way is to release a new model if they change the feature set. Look at all their other products. They're not constantly improving the software to eke out more. They just move to better hardware, usually cheaper.

If they ever do high frame rates it won't be on this model.

JB.
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostMon Feb 18, 2013 2:04 pm

Darryl Gregory wrote:
remopini wrote:nobody goes to Canon and asks them when they will update the C300 through firmware to support 60p...


You wanna bet? It's asked a thousand times a day I'm sure!
But they act like their deaf in both ears!


My experience so far would indicate what John said. BMD puts out a product with some specs and if they see the requirement for new features, they add them in the next version...

"buying new" is the upgrade path... (kind of like the Apple model)
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostMon Feb 18, 2013 3:34 pm

Darryl Gregory wrote:
adamroberts wrote:
lol we can argue till the sun rises, but the fact is it can be done...Compressed or not the ability
to get 60 or even 120fps on the BMCC is possible.


Upon what do you base this information? Do you have hardware specs, or are you just basing this on the fact that other cameras CAN, so therefore the BMCC must also be able to?

It's quite possible and in fact likely that one of the trade offs that BMD made to keep the price point at $3000 with 12-bit RAW capability was to sacrifice high frame rates.
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostMon Feb 18, 2013 6:14 pm

I was just wondering if it was theoretically possible for BMD to build an external recorder (which would work with thunderbolt) to get higher frame rates. I was thinking if it were a processing/data rate issue, couldn't this be solved like that?

Just curious, I'm obviously not an engineer nor do I really have any idea about how frame rates are recorded in the BMC but I thought this was an interesting idea.
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostTue Feb 19, 2013 11:18 am

So the main selling point for the next BMCC would be 60p, electronic MFT, .60 focal reducer accesory. Boom.:D
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostWed Feb 20, 2013 4:00 am

John Brawley wrote:
Darryl Gregory wrote:
John Brawley
Sorry. But no way this is happening with the current BMCC.


JB it can be done in bursts! Like the Sony FS700

It can be done, and it is being done, And We Want It Done Soon!

We know Canon & GoPro can do it at prices we can afford...
Hmm Is there a conspiracy theory going on?, We know that BMD can do it with the BMCC, But Maybe we need More Consumer Demand, They listen when we buy, or they listen if we don't buy?
So lets make some noise people!

We are driving all the camera sales and designs, We just need to let them know what we want!



Give it up Daryle. No amount of your hopeful happy clappy well wishing changes the reality.

Both canon and gopro were DESIGNED with those frame rates in mind.

I'm sorry for being blunt but you don't know what you're talking about. It's not like BMD sit there holding back a feature that would sell a bucket load more cameras.

This idea that you keep perpetuating that a mere software update will somehow enable a DOUBLING of the frame rate is just your wishful thinking. Its very far from being likely.

The BMD way is to release a new model if they change the feature set. Look at all their other products. They're not constantly improving the software to eke out more. They just move to better hardware, usually cheaper.

If they ever do high frame rates it won't be on this model.

JB.


Yeah I was pretty drunk, I couldn't help playing with the minds of the 'Slow Mow" lovers,
But I'll stop posting while drinking, it's funny...Until you sober up.

Although It would be nice, I think some other firmware updates are more important than 60fps.

All in fun JB.
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostWed Feb 20, 2013 9:32 pm

There is no firmware update currently scheduled to introduce higher framerates as it simply impacts everything; memory bandwidth, I/O subsystem, compression, cooling system, battery life, etc

However, having said that, the following should be considered to take the strain off the hardware to perhaps make this possible :

- provide lower resolution option(s) when shooting at a higher framerate. Ie. 720p at the very least
- only provide the option of shooting in prores at 50-60fps
- introduce a lighter codec into the mix
- limit clips to 5-15 second bursts

I am aware that its not as simple as flicking a switch, but all of the above should make this possible, with the only limitation being in how much foresight was taken into the initial design and implementation.
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John Brawley

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostWed Feb 20, 2013 11:22 pm

Damian Luchow wrote:However, having said that, the following should be considered to take the strain off the hardware to perhaps make this possible :

- provide lower resolution option(s) when shooting at a higher framerate. Ie. 720p at the very least
- only provide the option of shooting in prores at 50-60fps
- introduce a lighter codec into the mix
- limit clips to 5-15 second bursts



The thing is they DON"T take the strain off the hardware.

Rescaling to 720 takes computational power. Running the sensor sensor faster also greatly increases the power demands AND the cooling.

Only shooting ProRes STILL takes a massive increase in power for the sensor to run twice as fast and goes beyond the cooling design parameters. It also means the internal processing ALSO has to run twice as fast, again greatly increasing the amount of heat that the boards are working with....

A lighter codec still has to be computed. In fact, higher compression generally requires more computational resources...this equals again...more heat, and only if there's overhead processing power to be able to DO the lighter more computationally intensive codec.

Heating causes all sort of things to change as well. Dead pixels will show up more prominently for example and the noise floor starts to rise.

It's all good and well to play amateur camera designer but no one here has built a camera before. Look at the overheating issues on a 5D running at even NORMAL frame rates.

While they might be able to get a few more FPS out of this model, they won't get to 60FPS. And a few more FPS for them isn't really a priority right now for the engineering guys.

jb
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostThu Feb 21, 2013 12:02 am

[quote=]
While they might be able to get a few more FPS out of this model, they won't get to 60FPS. And a few more FPS for them isn't really a priority right now for the engineering guys.
jb[/quote]

So what are their priorities because there are a lot of basic features that this "cinema camera" is missing and we have been given no insight or indication that these feature will be implimented? I mean honestly is an SSD capacity meter too much to ask?


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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostThu Feb 21, 2013 12:20 am

cmckinlay wrote:
... While they might be able to get a few more FPS out of this model, they won't get to 60FPS. And a few more FPS for them isn't really a priority right now for the engineering guys.
jb


So what are their priorities because there are a lot of basic features that this "cinema camera" is missing and we have been given no insight or indication that these feature will be implimented? I mean honestly is an SSD capacity meter too much to ask?


Hi Cameron: You're welcome to add feature requests to the list:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=265

What's critically important to me or you may not be as important to someone else or to BMD. And some features may only -- ever -- exist in a different camera.
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostThu Feb 21, 2013 4:09 am

Can it squeeze 48fps at 15s burst at prores?
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostThu Feb 21, 2013 6:21 am

The bottom line is there's no 1 camera that does everything for everyone. There never will be.

BMCC is the best cinema camera you can buy for $3000. That's what it is. The image you get out of this camera (at cinema playback rates) is simply outstanding and the price to get into this quality of a picture is very, very affordable.

I admit I love the slomo of the FS700...and for some of the motorsports stuff I do, I want it. However, that's not the majority of work I'm doing or seeing myself do in the future.

So for me, I want that beautiful cinema image. RED has it. Alex has it. F5 has it. These camera are all out of my price range right now. The BMCC is simply the BEST cinema camera on the market for less than $10K. Period.

Sure it would be nice if it shot 120fps...or was better in really low light...or had a 4 hour built-in battery, etc. But I think the comprimises you would have to make to get all those things would not be worth it.
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostThu Feb 21, 2013 7:09 am

John Brawley wrote:
The thing is they DON"T take the strain off the hardware.

Rescaling to 720 takes computational power. Running the sensor sensor faster also greatly increases the power demands AND the cooling.

Only shooting ProRes STILL takes a massive increase in power for the sensor to run twice as fast and goes beyond the cooling design parameters. It also means the internal processing ALSO has to run twice as fast, again greatly increasing the amount of heat that the boards are working with....

A lighter codec still has to be computed. In fact, higher compression generally requires more computational resources...this equals again...more heat, and only if there's overhead processing power to be able to DO the lighter more computationally intensive codec.

Heating causes all sort of things to change as well. Dead pixels will show up more prominently for example and the noise floor starts to rise.

It's all good and well to play amateur camera designer but no one here has built a camera before. Look at the overheating issues on a 5D running at even NORMAL frame rates.

While they might be able to get a few more FPS out of this model, they won't get to 60FPS. And a few more FPS for them isn't really a priority right now for the engineering guys.

jb



Hi John,

Cheers for the education as 2 of the above suggestions were based on the assumption that lowering the resolution and shooting in prores lessens the workload when compared to recording in RAW. If thats not the case, and its not possible, its not possible, however, i now have some questions:

1) Is rescaling to lower resolutions more labor intensive on the hardware than recording in raw at 2.5k? and if so, why do cameras offer the option of shooting with higher framerates on a lower resolution?

2) Is shooting in prores more work on the hardware than shooting in raw?

3) Please correct me if im totally not right here, but i though a lighter program or codec generally means its coded more efficiently and requires less work, thus lightening the workload of the hardware, with the codec not necessarily increasing the compression?

If the answer is no to questions 1 & 2, then i suppose the only option is Samjack's suggestion of a compromise of 48fps with a limited record time. Its clear as day that Blackmagic's main priority was to make an awesometacular camera and get it out into the public's hands based on its current features, and that the engineers have so many other priorities and things to work on/out before they even consider higher frame rates. Im only trying to establish as to what requires less work and the trade offs that can be made for us to even see a glimmer of this being a possibility in the future as they hinted prior to release.


Amateur camera designer ;)
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostThu Feb 21, 2013 7:41 am

Damian Luchow wrote:
1) Is rescaling to lower resolutions more labor intensive on the hardware than recording in raw at 2.5k? and if so, why do cameras offer the option of shooting with higher framerates on a lower resolution?



Rescaling requires computation. It would be an extra layer of calculations in the pipeline.

2) Is shooting in prores more work on the hardware than shooting in raw?


It's a lossy perceptual codec. That means math, which will eat computational power. The tradeoff is do more computing up front, or consume more bandwidth up front.

3) Please correct me if im totally not right here, but i though a lighter program or codec generally means its coded more efficiently and requires less work, thus lightening the workload of the hardware, with the codec not necessarily increasing the compression?


"Coded more efficiently" is basically stating that the current code is crap. Odds are that's not the case; this isn't the IT industry, which is dominated by garbage code written by the cheapest dumbass or the best brown-noser. (This is based on far too much experience in the industry. Forgive the rant, it's the reason that I'm changing careers to being a cinematographer, and let's leave it at that. Should you prefer more, just be informed that Dilber isn't fictional, it's sugar-coated.)

When it comes to compression, there's no free lunch. Most of the best video codecs are perceptual and asymmetric. That basically means that they analyze the data stream, look for the details that the viewers won't be able to see, and don't save them. Increasing the compression ratio means lowering the threshold of what details to discard from the data stream. It takes considerably more computing power to encode h.264 than to decode it, for example.

A "lighter" codec, one that requires less computing power, is most likely also a codec that doesn't do as much compression, or that like most lossless codecs, doesn't do any analysis to determine what the viewer may or may not be able to see. The down side is that it will as a result require a higher data rate to save the video.

Its clear as day that Blackmagic's main priority was to make an awesometacular camera and get it out into the public's hands based on its current features, and that the engineers have so many other priorities and things to work on/out before they even consider higher frame rates.


That's the most logical thing for BMD to do. They're a newcomer in an industry where their primary competition is film, Arri Alexa, Red Epic, and Sony CineAlta. This isn't a market that tolerates crap; if you start selling a camera that flakes out or overheats regularly, you're done. Black Magic targeted a price point and made the compromises that they needed to in order to hit it without sacrificing image quality, and their belief was that "image quality" was driven primarily by having accurate color and a huge dynamic range.

The stuff from Andrew Julian alone shows that BMD got it right, even though they still have some bugs to work out with the audio side of things, but at least they got the hardware right, and they can fix the software.

If you can't afford a Red and you need a high frame rate, look into a Hero 3 Black. :)

This is a good time to be a cinematographer.

I'm going to see if I can arrange a trip to climb Mount Adams, and if that works out I'll be dragging along the BMCC. My only frustration will be having to choose between the BMCC and the Arca-Swiss for weight considerations, unless I can find enough sherpas... I mean, crew... to join in.

:)
Rakesh Malik
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Damian Luchow

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostFri Feb 22, 2013 2:05 am

Hi Tamerlin,

Really appreciated and enjoyed this response, it was very informative!! The only questions i have left are:

Tamerlin wrote:
Rescaling requires computation. It would be an extra layer of calculations in the pipeline.




1) How companys such as RED are able to offer the option of shooting with higher framerates at lower resolutions if rescaling adds an extra layer of calculations into the pipeline?

Tamerlin wrote:
It's a lossy perceptual codec. That means math, which will eat computational power. The tradeoff is do more computing up front, or consume more bandwidth up front.



2) Which tradeoff requires less work?


Damian
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adamroberts

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostFri Feb 22, 2013 2:27 am

Damian Luchow wrote:1) How companys such as RED are able to offer the option of shooting with higher framerates at lower resolutions if rescaling adds an extra layer of calculations into the pipeline?


RED are doing sensor cropping not scaling. The RED also have much more powerful processors and cooling. They are also substantially more expensive.
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Aaron Scheiner

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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostFri Feb 22, 2013 8:40 am

Damian Luchow wrote :
1) Is rescaling to lower resolutions more labor intensive on the hardware than recording in raw at 2.5k? and if so, why do cameras offer the option of shooting with higher framerates on a lower resolution?

I just wanted to point out that there are different algorithms for doing rescaling.

Canon DSLRs use a method called "Nearest Neighbour" and image/video editing software generally use Bi/Tri-Linear/Spline rescaling methods.

Nearest Neighbour is a dirty way of getting a lower resolution image off a sensor without the normal processing overhead. It works by either discarding (down-scaling) or duplicating (up-scaling) pixels. If the image is being rescaled to 10% of it's original size, the DSP will read a line off the sensor and will then skip 9 lines. This is why DSLRs have moire and various other artifacts relating to *lost* pixels.

In the case of Bi-Linear or S-pline, if the image is reduced to 11% of it's original, the processor takes every block of 9 pixels and averages the values of those pixels. The average is then stored. This is obviously the sexier, higher-quality method, but as everyone has said, it uses a lot more processing power.

>>> Nice explanation, although kind of in reverse : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersampling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resampling_(bitmap)
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Re: Can A 60fps achievable in future updates?

PostFri Feb 22, 2013 9:01 am

This is an interesting discussion. I like to hear about how these things work!

So, since the current hardware of the BMC EF doesn't have the processing power to handle the higher uncompressed frame rates, would it be possible to use an external recorder?

So for example, I just found this: http://www.convergent-design.com/products/geminiraw.aspx

It can record uncompressed 4k RAW at 60fps and 120fps. Anyway, it also has a thunderbolt port option, so if BMD opened up the thunderbolt port for monitoring too, could this be a possibility?

Hmmmmmmmmm

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