Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

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John Brawley

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Jan 03, 2017 11:26 pm

Mike Halper wrote:
This is the point that I'm talking about. It clearly is something that can be fixed, but BMD is not fixing it,


The point I was making is that your examples of RED always doing the right thing isn't a view I'd agree with and I don't think I'm alone in that opinion, and your view that no other cameras has this issue is also clearly not true. I'm not an engineer. I can't tell you technically what's happening other than the "calibration" of the photosites drifts over time.

Interesting too isn't it that Sony DO have black shading on their cameras and yet still seem to be able to exhibit this fault.

BM have accepted there is an issue.
They have communicated that they accept there is an issue.
They have developed a fix for it and released it in a firmware update within a matter of months of it coming to light (the first post in this thread is from September)
A lot of users have reported that this new FW mostly solves the issue for them.

It's very possible I don't see these issues in the many hundreds of photographed hours of work I've done with this camera because I don't shoot in the kinds of circumstances that bring these issues to light. I can probably make it happen if I go looking for it. I don't deny that it's a problem for some. But at some point you make a call about if it's a problem in your shooting circumstances.

JB
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Mike Halper

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Jan 04, 2017 2:36 am

John, I never said Red always does the right thing. If you think I did, please point out where I said that. In fact, I did say that Red has issues and also stated I don't own a Red anymore because of my experience with them. What I did say is that Red is more forthcoming with their issues and addresses them more openly and quickly than BMD. Obviously/apparently there are some specific examples to the contrary, and I expect that with any company anyway. Again, I no longer own a Red because of issues I have with them. Someone else made a claim regarding Red that I rebutted, and that's how Red got dragged into the conversation. I was not the first to bring up Red in this discussion over the last few days, and I haven't mentioned it again until now since you've brought it up again. I don't want to make this a discuss of Red vs BMD. They are 2 different companies with cameras at 2 completely different price points.

The issue that Sony cameras have is different than this issue with the 4.6K. In my reading, it was found to be caused by light hitting the lens, and thus hitting the sensor at some odd angle that caused the issue. Preventing that from happening resulted in the issue not appearing. So it is a different issue, and not related to black shading.

The fix that BMD has released does not completely solve the problem. There are multiple examples of the cross-hatching still appearing. Whether it is the same amount of cross-hatching or less visible than it used to be under pre-4.2 firmware, the cross-hatching is still there. The problem is not completely fixed by the firmware. I really don't think "mostly" solving the problem is good enough. Are you going to mostly shoot a scene or mostly shoot a movie? Are you going to mostly light it? Are we to now mostly color correct footage, or mostly edit the footage into a movie, music video, commercial, or some other video end-product? Why is "mostly" fixing the imaging issues equaling satisfaction? The camera was never advertised or marketed to have cross-hatching, the sample footage released by BMD (which you shot) does not have cross-hatching, so why is it acceptable that the issue exists at all?

The problem with determining if is an issue with an individual's shooting circumstances is you wouldn't know if the cross-hatching is going to be there until after you've shot the footage, which by then is too late. So it makes the 4.6K a non-option. I really would like one of these cameras, but with this issue even a remote possibility I couldn't afford to shoot with it and end up with the footage having cross-hatching. So must I and anyone else in the same situation just look elsewhere? BMD is going to lose business from me and others who are in the same situation. And I likely won't look at BMD even in the future if that's the case. Maybe BMD just doesn't care, or they just don't know how to fix it...
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Jan 04, 2017 2:32 pm

Probably with 4.2 firmware Cross Hatching comes to levels of BMMCC. Wonder if someone can do side by side test with both cameras. I agree with Mike Halper - New firmware fixes a lot of UM4.6K issues but it is not complete Cross Hatching problem solution.
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Simon Schubert

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Jan 04, 2017 6:16 pm

Funny fact:

go and check the Product Main Page of Resolve and take a little closer look at the background image (the one with the guy and the girl colorizing)... especially in the darker spots like his chair and her jeans, or the furniture in the foreground...

Looks a little like the one time, I tried to get rid of the crosshatch with noise reduction tools...
:lol:

Might be fpn as well...
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Tony Leech

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Jan 22, 2017 11:14 pm

Thanks to everyone for the insightful (and often spirited!) discussion in this thread. After initial testing, the 4.2 firmware, which includes the new 'Calibrate Sensor' function, appears to have solved the cross-hatching I was seeing prior to the update.

It's clear the BM community is brimming with passionate, knowledgeable and skilled professionals like yourselves, and I'm glad to now be a part of it.

Many thanks, and happy shooting!
-Tony

shoot first. edit later.
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Earl R. Thurston

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Jan 23, 2017 6:08 pm

Welcome aboard. And I'm now officially a BMD camera user myself (got my own URSA Mini 4K a couple weeks ago).
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John Bernard

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Feb 18, 2017 8:03 am

I want to write something important which includes constructive criticism of BMD, but I'm concern with MBD can't do no wrong type people tearing me a new one.
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rick.lang

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Feb 18, 2017 3:27 pm

John Bernard, usually criticism begets criticism, but that's just part of the dialogue in a forum, so constructive criticisms are always welcome. Go for it.


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Earl R. Thurston

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Feb 18, 2017 6:34 pm

John Bernard wrote:I want to write something important which includes constructive criticism of BMD...


Feel free to speak your mind. Constructive criticism is always more helpful to BMD than blind praise (whether they like it or not). I applaud them for not censoring negative feedback here.
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Keith Babineaux

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Feb 18, 2017 6:41 pm

John Bernard wrote:I want to write something important which includes constructive criticism of BMD, but I'm concern with MBD can't do no wrong type people tearing me a new one.


Stop acting like a girl scout and speak your mind. Ha-ha!
Keith Babineaux | Film Student | Full Sail University
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Maciej Przygoda

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Feb 20, 2017 8:49 pm

Quick test :)
ISO 1600
Sensor overheating when to much information!?

1.jpg
1.jpg (194.27 KiB) Viewed 1923 times
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Feb 21, 2017 7:32 pm

Probably ProRes Proxy codec just smoothes fine details and destroys that fixed pattern
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rick.lang

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Feb 22, 2017 1:34 am

Maciej, so we know one solution: shoot ProRes Proxy! Were these sample images from a camera that had Black Shading Calibration performed correctly?


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Maciej Przygoda

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Feb 23, 2017 3:23 pm

Proxy can be a solution when shooting on higher ISO :)
Yes, samples are from calibrated camera, ISO 1600, 3200k.

I've notice that i have also no crosshatching on RAW... but few badpixels...
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Earl R. Thurston

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Feb 23, 2017 7:02 pm

Maciej Przygoda wrote:I've notice that i have also no crosshatching on RAW...

The cause of the crosshatching is likely still present in the RAW data, you just haven't seen it manifested as crosshatching yet. Beware -- it could manifest later depending on how the footage is used.
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Simon Schubert

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Mar 22, 2017 7:08 am

Hi folks,

the latest update for davinci resolve has a release note that states: "Added support for channel level fine tuning with ARRI SDK debayer".

Anybody here who has enough technical knowledge in that area, to tell if this might be of any help with the crosshatching issue? And if so, olny for ARRI footage?

Does Resolve use the ARRI SDK debayer only for ARRI cameras or also for footage shot on other cameras?

Regards...
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rick.lang

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Mar 22, 2017 12:39 pm

ARRI is the default rather infuriatingly and it often reappears by itself whenever I change project settings. Shouldn't normally be used for BMD sensors.


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Tommaso Alvisi

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Mar 22, 2017 4:32 pm

Hey Rick,

each RAW file always uses its SDK...

the drop down menu it's there just to enter in the relative page to specifically set its options... ;)
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rick.lang

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Mar 22, 2017 5:58 pm

Thanks, Tommaso.


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DavidRoss

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Sep 03, 2017 7:45 pm

Any update on Crosshatching on the BMMCC? Mine is pretty bad. Firmware fix? Send it in? Shoot self in the foot for selling my BMCC?
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rick.lang

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Sep 03, 2017 8:21 pm

David, nice suspense plot premise for a spoof on a BMD game show. "Contestant, which door do you choose?"


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Ryan Payne

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Sep 03, 2017 11:41 pm

DavidRoss wrote:Any update on Crosshatching on the BMMCC? Mine is pretty bad. Firmware fix? Send it in? Shoot self in the foot for selling my BMCC?


At first I put the lack of popularity down to the BMMCC ergonomics and thought eh I can just rig it out. While the ergonomics only seem to be bad because of a lack of updates, in fact the only reason I'd consider the pocket better is because it actually went through a few years of updates and fixes for it's problems. The micro is still sitting there with significant FPN in it's shadows and cross hatching while the pocket is largely free of both. Not to mention a major QoL fix like full menu control.

I'm not sure if it needs a better calibration or what but it needs some love.
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João Hipólito

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Sep 13, 2017 12:06 pm

Hello everyone.

Just updated the URSA Mini Pro to the lattest firmware, and I still can't get the problem solved.

4.6K PRORes 422 HQ
Attachments
URSA MINI PRO Crosshatching.jpg
URSA MINI PRO Crosshatching.jpg (281.55 KiB) Viewed 266 times
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Nov 07, 2017 5:39 pm

Here is someones post that sums up what Blackmagic sent Cross Hatching fix for UM4.6K via email. It is really strange to make a camera fixes in this way to random customers. In 1920x1080 mode this fix works well with Micro and Pocket cameras. This fix produce same result as 0.5 X/Y position shift but visually don't shifts image itself. https://ursa-mini-fpn-grid-pattern-nois ... 18/fix-46k

Fix 4.6k Ursa Mini FPN Grid Pattern Noise Using Resolve Node
ABOUT THE ISSUE


The Blackmagic URSA MINI 4.6k is possibly my favorite camera. I got a unit right when they came out and was just blown away. Some of the early units used to have an issue with noise though - some people call it FPN noise, grid pattern noise, there’s a lot of different names and confusion around it.
The only way to fix this used to be in raw footage by editing GreenBayerSplit properties using a program like ExifTool or CornerFix and then opening the files in a compatible Adobe app. That would involve exporting your footage and losing the raw element.
Now you can do this right in DaVinci Resolve using a Power Grade. Just add a node before you grade! Easy! You can still control the raw footage and it’s as if the problem never happened. This is such a huge help for anyone who has footage before the issue was addressed.
FILES

Get Files on GitHub https://github.com/ursa-mini-46k-fpn-gr ... solve-Node
Get Files on Google Drive https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ZBcS ... dUOEk/view

README

Apply only to the footage and in the timeline with the matching resolution—this will guaranty pixel to pixel mapping needed for this to work properly.
IF THE DRX FILES WON’T IMPORT: Select the folder the .drx files are in and import that instead.
URSA Mini 4.6K - Grid Pattern Workaround

The workaround to alleviate the visible grid pattern will only work if applied to the ORIGINAL footage shot by the camera, and when used in certain conditions. Be sure to download the HD-UHD-46K-grid_2.zip file, unzip it, and move it to the desired folder destination in the system. The following settings and steps will help alleviate the issue when working with RAW 4.6K footage and ProRes footage shot in HD and UHD. The zip file also contains the files needed for 2K footage and can be applied in the same fashion.
RAW 4.6
Camera Settings:
Codec: RAW, RAW 4:1, RAW 3:1 - Resolution: 4608x2592
Sensor Area: Full
DaVinci Resolve Settings:
Project Settings > Master Project Settings > Timeline Resolution: Custom For 4608x2592 - Project Settings > Master Project Settings > Video Monitoring > Monitor scaling: Bilinear
Import the footage into the timeline.
In the Color page, go to the Gallery window and open Still Albums
Right click and select Add Power Grade Album (so that you always have a shortcut to the fix) then right click in the grey are and select Import
Navigate to the location of the unzipped folder and select 4.6K_grid_1.1.1.drx (if this is greyed out, set the import window to All Files (*.*)) and Import it. If this isn’t an option, import the entire enclosing folder instead.
Then double click on the still so that it applies the fix to the selected clip in the timeline
ProRes UHD
Camera Settings:
Codec: ProRes (any flavor) - Resolution: 3810x2160
Sensor Area: Window
Detail: Off
DaVinci Resolve Settings:
Project Settings > Master Project Settings > Timeline Resolution: 3840x2160 Ultra HD
Project Settings > Master Project Settings > Video Monitoring > Monitor scaling: Bilinear
Import the footage into the timeline.
In the Color page, go to the Gallery window and open Still Albums
Right click and select Add Power Grade Album (so that you always have a shortcut to the fix) then right click in the grey are and select Import
Navigate to the location of the unzipped folder and select 3840x2160_grd_1.1.1.drx (if this is greyed out, set the import window to All Files (*.*)) and Import it. If this isn’t an option, import the entire enclosing folder instead.
Then double click on the still so that it applies the fix to the selected clip in the timeline
ProRes HD
Camera Settings:
Codec: ProRes (any flavor) - Resolution: 1920x1080
Sensor Area: Window
Detail: Off
DaVinci Resolve Settings:
Project Settings > Master Project Settings > Timeline Resolution: 1920x1080 HD
Project Settings > Master Project Settings > Video Monitoring > Monitor scaling: Bilinear
Import the footage into the timeline.
In the Color page, go to the Gallery window and open Still Albums
Right click and select Add Power Grade Album (so that you always have a shortcut to the fix) then right click in the grey are and select Import
Navigate to the location of the unzipped folder and select 1920x1080_grd_l.1.1.drx (if this is greyed out, set the import window to All Files (*.*)) and Import it. If this isn’t an option, import the entire enclosing folder instead.
Then double click on the still so that it applies the fix to the selected clip in the timeline
If the settings aren’t correct, the workaround won’t work, so if you don’t see a difference double check your settings.
Last edited by Dmitry Shijan on Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:45 am, edited 6 times in total.
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chris.white

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Nov 07, 2017 6:41 pm

João Hipólito wrote:Hello everyone.

Just updated the URSA Mini Pro to the lattest firmware, and I still can't get the problem solved.

4.6K PRORes 422 HQ


In my case, it was some type of hardware fault that was causing the crosshatch issue with my UM4.6. I returned the camera to BM for inspection and they determined that it was faulty and sent me another under warranty. If it didn't improve with the firmware for you, you might want to send it to BM... it could be a similar issue to that mine had.
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