Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

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Michael McCaffrey

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Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 15, 2016 3:55 am

Hey guys, I know this was discussed on a few threads in July which I read, but I am having all kinds of cross hatching / checkerboard grids over my 4k ProRes files shot at 4096x2160 4k DCI. In Premiere, and in Resolve and in Quicktime player. I tried setting the image scaling to smooth in resolve but that did not help when my timeline was 4096x2160. Only if I change my sequences to 1080p and change scaling to smooth does it appear to go away. And when I render out 4K DCI from resolve, the cross hatching is still there. Its awful. Im using 4.0 beta firmware and the 4.6k. I dont want my original camera files coming out looking like this. Ive scoured the forums already and no real fixes or solutions. Nobody even really agreed on what the issue was. I love the 15 stops of DR but 20 stops of dynamic range wouldnt be worth this nonsense. 4K Raw files are also coming out soft, but that is a whole other issue. Almost ready to sell this thing.

So, without starting another thread on cross-hatching, is there a confirmed and official fix for this or are we still shooting in the dark?

Update:
I looked at some of the old footage shot with the original 4.6k camera I had. Everything looked WAY better. No visible cross hatching or noise even in dark shots at 800iso. This new camera I received under warranty and it seems to be another bad camera. I know this is not normal.
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Michael McCaffrey

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 15, 2016 8:53 pm

Dont everybody speak at once.. :)

Camera is on its way back to BMD. My third RMA in 2 months. And in that time I've had the camera in my possession for a total of about 5 days.
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Simon Baker

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Sep 16, 2016 1:54 am

I had to roll back to 3.1 to fix this.
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Sep 16, 2016 3:01 am

Yea I'm right there with you.....Since I got my camera, the cross hatching has progressively gotten worse with every new firmware update. It's REALLY annoying, and I've never seen any camera (blackmagic products included) do this, until this ursa mini 4.6k. If this is normal for this camera then I need to either RMA and hope it's not an issue with ALL the 4.6ks, or sell it and get something else. I really wish blackmagic could fix this in a firmware update, but it doesn't seem to be a priority :(
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Sep 16, 2016 4:37 am

Phillip Bergman wrote:Yea I'm right there with you.....Since I got my camera, the cross hatching has progressively gotten worse with every new firmware update. It's REALLY annoying, and I've never seen any camera (blackmagic products included) do this, until this ursa mini 4.6k. If this is normal for this camera then I need to either RMA and hope it's not an issue with ALL the 4.6ks, or sell it and get something else. I really wish blackmagic could fix this in a firmware update, but it doesn't seem to be a priority :(


If it was possible to fix with firmware, they wouldn't be issuing RMAs. As Michael reported above, BMD is issuing RMAs for the problem, so I would contact BMD and get it them to fix it for you.
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Ursa mini 4.6 playback checker

PostSat Sep 17, 2016 10:25 am

屏幕快照 2016-09-17 下午6.14.38.png
playback checker
屏幕快照 2016-09-17 下午6.14.38.png (98.38 KiB) Viewed 6605 times

This is not just fixe pattern noise.It seems not a single frame problem,it's a bug when you playback,and when deliver it to other formats in davinci reslove,the checkers still exist.
Having been suffering this since I bought it.I didn't return it because I thought it can be fixed later,but I don't see any change frome firmware 3.3 to 4.0b2.And, this is the second ursa mini 4.6k I bought,I returned the first one because of the terrible pink issue.
Did the engineers know the playback cheker issue?When will it be fixed?
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Sep 18, 2016 1:50 pm

Michael McCaffrey wrote:Dont everybody speak at once.. :)

Camera is on its way back to BMD. My third RMA in 2 months. And in that time I've had the camera in my possession for a total of about 5 days.



Hey man could you post in this thread once you get your new camera and let me know if it still has the crosshatching? Mine has the same issue, crosshatch pattern (mostly visible when shooting ISO 800 or higher in low lit scenes) tho I have seen it in shadows when shooting ISO 400 outside. Only seems to show up on when I shoot Prores at 4k or 4.6k (4.6k is WAY worse than 4k). Mostly it goes away after rendering, but sometimes it doesn't! And like you said, if I want to deliver RAW files to a client, they're gonna ask me what the hell I did to the footage. So Yea if you could post your findings with the new camera that would be great! I always thought it was an issue with ALL the 4.6k's but if it's specific to only some cameras then I'll be sending mine back...thanks!
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Sep 19, 2016 3:44 am

Phillip Bergman wrote:I always thought it was an issue with ALL the 4.6k's but if it's specific to only some cameras then I'll be sending mine back...thanks!


I think there is a good chance that it affects all of the cameras, but because it only shows up at certain resolutions and with particular workflows, my guess is that only the "squeaky wheels" will get RMAs.

It would be great to get an official response from BMD on the issue.
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Michael McCaffrey

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Sep 19, 2016 4:14 pm

Yeah I can let you know. Hoping to get it back toward the end of this week. I know for sure the crosshatching is not on all cameras. The first 4.6k I had shortly after the release last March did not have this problem. I went back and looked at my old footage. No crosshatching, so I knew when I saw it on this camera it was an issue related to the specific camera. Furthermore, BMD basically told me that they are aware of this issue and that they have a fix they can do in-house that will resolve this issue. That's what they told me anyway, so that is what they are doing. I tried to confirm if this was a hardware or software fix twice, but they wouldnt say. If it was software they probably could have resolved this with firmware. That tells me, there is a manufacturing problem, maybe with a certain batch of cameras, and that to get it fixed, BMD needs to do it in-house. So anyway, I'll let you know when its back in my hands and what the footage looks like.
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Kyle Gordon

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Sep 19, 2016 4:22 pm

Did they say you if would be getting the same camera back, or a replacement?
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Aaron Green

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Sep 19, 2016 9:49 pm

@MichaelMcCaffrey Do you have some screen shots of this? I believe that I've been having the same issue. I had it on the Pocket a couple of years ago. When playing UHD ProRes files, rendering them in UHD, or even rendering a JPEG in UHD the cross hatch is visible. If I scale to HD, or render in HD it disappears. Have you tried that yet?
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 12:10 am

Yup. That is exactly what you are describing... anything I shoot at 2k doesnt show that. As soon as i shoot at UHD 4k or 4.6k if I'll look at the native files it will show this crosshatch checkboard p]like) pattern... if I'll down scale it to a 2k or HD timeline the pattern dissappear.
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 4:03 am

Aaron Green wrote:@MichaelMcCaffrey Do you have some screen shots of this? I believe that I've been having the same issue. I had it on the Pocket a couple of years ago. When playing UHD ProRes files, rendering them in UHD, or even rendering a JPEG in UHD the cross hatch is visible. If I scale to HD, or render in HD it disappears. Have you tried that yet?


There's a prior thread on the problem that includes a number of examples:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50175&hilit=cross
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 4:39 am

So I just updated to firmware 4.0 Beta 2, and I feel as though it has amplified the problem. This screen shot is ISO 800 at Prores LT 4.6k being played back on the spacebar preview on a mac. HORRIBLE crosshatching. Never saw anything like this on previous blackmagic models. Does anyone's camera NOT do this?

ScreenShotCrossHatch2.jpg
ScreenShotCrossHatch2.jpg (690.05 KiB) Viewed 6767 times
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 7:04 pm

So here's a little test I performed this moring In my office that is lit by overhead flourescent lights. I basically maxed the camera at prores 422 4.6k at ISO 1600 at HIGH detail sharpening. I used a Rokinon 85mm Cine Lens at about f4. I'm also on Firmware 4.0 beta 2.

The footage that comes out of the camera looks awful. Horrible crosshatch patterning plagues the entire image. This is true when playing in VLC, Quicktime, Premiere and REsolve. In Premiere however, if I set it to High Quality Playback, it looks clean. Upon rendering through resolve to 4k UHD Quicktime H264 it looks absolutely clean, like, way better than I would have expected. Here is a side by side Full Screen comparison playback on Quicktime between the original file, and the one rendered through resolve.

CrossHatchPatternCompareRESOLVE.jpg
CrossHatchPatternCompareRESOLVE.jpg (784.82 KiB) Viewed 6719 times


So next, I tried rendering through premiere. Premiere won't let me render a Quicktime H264 4kUHD video. Apparently it's Quicktime H264 limits are 2000x2000 pixels. So I had to just Select the H264 (MP4) version instead. Upon rendering from Premiere, the cross hatching still remains, though not as intense as in the original prores file as seen below.

CrossHatchPatternComparePREMIERE.jpg
CrossHatchPatternComparePREMIERE.jpg (833.02 KiB) Viewed 6719 times


Now I've noticed that I get the crosshatching pattern on footage shot at ISO400 in both well lit, and not well lit scenes, but the visibility of the crosshatching is diminished in well lit scenes.

So I guess in conclusion, the footage out of my camera looks like crap if you look at the straight resolve files. But upon rendering the images look very nice but only when rendered through resolve. So I can't just edit my footage in premiere (at least not any shots that I will be pushing to the max, which, for the most part I can't image I will be doing very often, if at all.)

One more observation I've noticed is that the Crosshatching is at it's worst when shooting at 4.6k prores at higher ISOs. It's not as bad, but still present, when shooting 4k UHD, and not visible at all when shooting HD (shooting HD windowed starts to bring it back however). Also, the crosshatching has perpetually gotten worse with each new Firmware update. If I roll back to 3.1, there is a lot less crosshatching than on 4.0 beta 2.

So on one hand, I'm happy the footage looks good after render, but on the other hand it's very annoying that I could never send any "raw" prores files to a client. They would all have to be processed first so that the crosshatching would disappear. Neither could I playback prores files on a computer for a client to view without them say "Dear god, what did you do to the footage?!", which doesn't look very professional.

I'm very curious if anyone DOESN't experience these crosshatching patterns on their cameras when shooting at 4k or 4.6k prores at ISO 800 or 1600 (or even 400 for that matter). I'm hearing mixed theories that it's "just how the camera is" vs the idea that not all cameras are like this and I need to RMA mine. Anyone?
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Michael McCaffrey

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Sep 21, 2016 12:30 am

Received my camera back from RMA dept today. Cross-hatching is gone. Now I can view and scale the footage normally in Premiere, Quicktime player, etc. I noticed they also rolled my camera back to the old firmware and turned off sharpening. So I will go back to 4.0 now beta 3 and see what happens tonight.

I asked a third time what the RMA dept did to fix the issue. The response I got was "I wasnt the one who worked on it so I dont know what they did." That's the third time I asked what the fix was and the third time I wasn't told. So my conclusion remains, there is some hardware or hardware calibration problem that BMD doesn't want to acknowledge.
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Sep 21, 2016 1:22 am

Michael McCaffrey wrote:Received my camera back from RMA dept today. Cross-hatching is gone. Now I can view and scale the footage normally in Premiere, Quicktime player, etc. I noticed they also rolled my camera back to the old firmware and turned off sharpening. So I will go back to 4.0 now beta 3 and see what happens tonight.

I asked a third time what the RMA dept did to fix the issue. The response I got was "I wasnt the one who worked on it so I dont know what they did." That's the third time I asked what the fix was and the third time I wasn't told. So my conclusion remains, there is some hardware or hardware calibration problem that BMD doesn't want to acknowledge.


That's fantastic news! I'm screen shotting this message and emailing it to them and requesting they do the same to mine! I'm just happy to know that it can be fixed.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Sep 21, 2016 1:36 am

Just an observation, the ability to sharpen in camera is intended to be applied when the camera is being used in a live broadcast where there is no post processing. If you're shooting video that will be processed in Resolve for example, recommend turning sharpening off.

Will be interesting what other image changes you notice when you test with the 4.0beta updates.


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Aleksandar Bogdanov

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Sep 21, 2016 5:35 am

Phillip and Michael, what are the best steps to reproduce the problem?

I shot a couple of underexposed 4.6 clips in ProRes HD and none of them have any cross hatching when I play them in QuickTime zoomed at the actual size. Would the RAW files be affected as well? Does it show every time?

Thanks!
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Aaron Green

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Sep 21, 2016 11:35 am

@rick.lang unfortunately turning off sharpening does not help. That was the recommendation from BM and since that point I've experienced cross hatch a few times.
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Aaron Green

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Sep 21, 2016 1:53 pm

Aleksandar Bogdanov wrote:Phillip and Michael, what are the best steps to reproduce the problem?

I shot a couple of underexposed 4.6 clips in ProRes HD and none of them have any cross hatching when I play them in QuickTime zoomed at the actual size. Would the RAW files be affected as well? Does it show every time?

Thanks!


In my experience exposure or ISO settings have nothing to do with it. It's a constant problem with any UHD, 4K, or 4.6K ProRes files.
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Michael McCaffrey

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 2:03 am

Aaron Green wrote:
Aleksandar Bogdanov wrote:Phillip and Michael, what are the best steps to reproduce the problem?

I shot a couple of underexposed 4.6 clips in ProRes HD and none of them have any cross hatching when I play them in QuickTime zoomed at the actual size. Would the RAW files be affected as well? Does it show every time?

Thanks!


In my experience exposure or ISO settings have nothing to do with it. It's a constant problem with any UHD, 4K, or 4.6K ProRes files.


Same for me. Any format or resolution or frame size.
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Michael McCaffrey

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 2:12 am

ok so I got my camera back now from RMA. Cross hatching is mostly gone. Let's say 80% better, but STILL not GONE. Quite a bit of noise and FPN at 800iso in any lighting situation, bright or dark. Especially noticeable with dark. Interestingly the footage looks usable in resolve, but in QuickTime and in Premiere and anywhere else except resolve, I see noticeable cross-hatching. Again, its better, but still present. In resolve, I dont see it.

If I render out a 4k DCI clip in Premiere as a ProResHQ I see it in the rendered file as well. Is there a way for me to make this go away in Premiere? If I cant get this to disappear in Premiere, then I just bought a $5k camera that cant produce ProRes footage that will work with my NLE. Wow. I dont want to be "forced" to use resolve all the time. That's unacceptable.

Not impressed with this camera. People say, 'oh shoot it with more light.' If that worked, then why do the shadows of the trees I shot in the park in the middle of the day have FPN? I should have ZERO problem getting clean shadows with that much light outside in the middle of the day at 400/800iso. Crazy.
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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa mini 4.6 playback checker

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 4:25 am

Nino, there are long discussions here on this cross-hatch or screen door problem that you refer to as a checkerboard.


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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Ursa mini 4.6 playback checker

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 5:28 am

Hi Nino. You are not alone on this one.

Here's a link to the original thread on the issue:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50175&hilit=cross

Contact BMD for an RMA. The current thinking is that they can do some sort of recalibration to fix it, but in another thread one Ursa Mini owner reports that after getting his camera back from an RMA the issue was improved but not eliminated:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51936

To BMD: What is the official word on this problem? You can fix this, right?
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Aaron Green

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 3:47 pm

Michael McCaffrey wrote:ok so I got my camera back now from RMA. Cross hatching is mostly gone. Let's say 80% better, but STILL not GONE. Quite a bit of noise and FPN at 800iso in any lighting situation, bright or dark. Especially noticeable with dark. Interestingly the footage looks usable in resolve, but in QuickTime and in Premiere and anywhere else except resolve, I see noticeable cross-hatching. Again, its better, but still present. In resolve, I dont see it.

If I render out a 4k DCI clip in Premiere as a ProResHQ I see it in the rendered file as well. Is there a way for me to make this go away in Premiere? If I cant get this to disappear in Premiere, then I just bought a $5k camera that cant produce ProRes footage that will work with my NLE. Wow. I dont want to be "forced" to use resolve all the time. That's unacceptable.

Not impressed with this camera. People say, 'oh shoot it with more light.' If that worked, then why do the shadows of the trees I shot in the park in the middle of the day have FPN? I should have ZERO problem getting clean shadows with that much light outside in the middle of the day at 400/800iso. Crazy.


They are issuing me an RMA. Do you think I should just keep it for a while? I don't want to lose 10 days and have it come back with the same problem.
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Michael McCaffrey wrote:ok so I got my camera back now from RMA. Cross hatching is mostly gone. Let's say 80% better, but STILL not GONE. Quite a bit of noise and FPN at 800iso in any lighting situation, bright or dark. Especially noticeable with dark. Interestingly the footage looks usable in resolve, but in QuickTime and in Premiere and anywhere else except resolve, I see noticeable cross-hatching. Again, its better, but still present. In resolve, I dont see it.

If I render out a 4k DCI clip in Premiere as a ProResHQ I see it in the rendered file as well. Is there a way for me to make this go away in Premiere? If I cant get this to disappear in Premiere, then I just bought a $5k camera that cant produce ProRes footage that will work with my NLE. Wow. I dont want to be "forced" to use resolve all the time. That's unacceptable.

Not impressed with this camera. People say, 'oh shoot it with more light.' If that worked, then why do the shadows of the trees I shot in the park in the middle of the day have FPN? I should have ZERO problem getting clean shadows with that much light outside in the middle of the day at 400/800iso. Crazy.



Wait I'm confused. Your first report stated that the cross hatching was completely gone, but now you're saying it's still there? Crap. I just sent my camera in for RMA. This news is depressing. It would seem as though they don't have a fix for this. Crossing my fingers for my camera. If it comes back the same, then I'm really gonna be regretting having not bought a Raven. I can't send these prores files to clients looking like this, and I don't want to render everything in resolve to make it usable first. PLEASE FIX MY CAMERA BLACKMAGIC!
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 4:23 pm

Aleksandar Bogdanov wrote:Phillip and Michael, what are the best steps to reproduce the problem?

I shot a couple of underexposed 4.6 clips in ProRes HD and none of them have any cross hatching when I play them in QuickTime zoomed at the actual size. Would the RAW files be affected as well? Does it show every time?

Thanks!


Could you shoot a short Prores clip in 4.6k or 4k at ISO 800, indoors, with just the available lighting in the room, and send us a link to download? I would love to inspect your footage and see if your camera DOES NOT suffer from this problem. That would at least give me hope lol
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 4:24 pm

Aaron Green wrote:
Michael McCaffrey wrote:ok so I got my camera back now from RMA. Cross hatching is mostly gone. Let's say 80% better, but STILL not GONE. Quite a bit of noise and FPN at 800iso in any lighting situation, bright or dark. Especially noticeable with dark. Interestingly the footage looks usable in resolve, but in QuickTime and in Premiere and anywhere else except resolve, I see noticeable cross-hatching. Again, its better, but still present. In resolve, I dont see it.

If I render out a 4k DCI clip in Premiere as a ProResHQ I see it in the rendered file as well. Is there a way for me to make this go away in Premiere? If I cant get this to disappear in Premiere, then I just bought a $5k camera that cant produce ProRes footage that will work with my NLE. Wow. I dont want to be "forced" to use resolve all the time. That's unacceptable.

Not impressed with this camera. People say, 'oh shoot it with more light.' If that worked, then why do the shadows of the trees I shot in the park in the middle of the day have FPN? I should have ZERO problem getting clean shadows with that much light outside in the middle of the day at 400/800iso. Crazy.


They are issuing me an RMA. Do you think I should just keep it for a while? I don't want to lose 10 days and have it come back with the same problem.



I sent my camera in yesterday for RMA, so I'll report on here when I get it back to see if they've fixed the issue.
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Michael McCaffrey

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 4:27 pm

Sorry guys. Upon closer examination I can still see some FPN in shadows and cross hatching in Premiere. It is mostly gone. But even several other things I shot in the middle of the day I can see FPN on a black shirt etc. If I depended upon this camera for a living it wouldnt cut it. As it is I feel awful having spent $5k on a camera that doesnt deliver a clean image. I looked at upgrading to a Raven but its twice the price and probably more camera than I need. But bloated cinemaDNGs (even at 4:1) and FPN and some cross-hatching make the UM4.6k a mute point. Im not sure what to do either. I wont buy BMD again.
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 4:57 pm

Michael McCaffrey wrote:Sorry guys. Upon closer examination I can still see some FPN in shadows and cross hatching in Premiere. It is mostly gone. But even several other things I shot in the middle of the day I can see FPN on a black shirt etc. If I depended upon this camera for a living it wouldnt cut it. As it is I feel awful having spent $5k on a camera that doesnt deliver a clean image. I looked at upgrading to a Raven but its twice the price and probably more camera than I need. But bloated cinemaDNGs (even at 4:1) and FPN and some cross-hatching make the UM4.6k a mute point. Im not sure what to do either. I wont buy BMD again.



See, this is infuriating, because Obviously they are able to do something to diminish the problem, so what's the deal? They get it close and say "eh, good enough" and ship it back?
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Michael McCaffrey

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 5:07 pm

I almost wonder if this issue with the sensor wasnt part of the original delay in shipping the cameras. Im sure global shutter played a part, but clearly the camera is faulty but shipping and being addressed as if everything is ok. A camera that cant produce clean blacks in broad daylight is not ok imho. Many users wont notice, others will say oh well, I can fix it in resolve. Id consider the pocket camera but others have already stated seeing cross hatching with that camera too. Bottom line is, as much or as little as people complain, it is what it is. I either bite the bullet by dealing with the issues or bite the bullet and upgrade to Red.
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 5:27 pm

Michael McCaffrey wrote:I almost wonder if this issue with the sensor wasnt part of the original delay in shipping the cameras. Im sure global shutter played a part, but clearly the camera is faulty but shipping and being addressed as if everything is ok. A camera that cant produce clean blacks in broad daylight is not ok imho. Many users wont notice, others will say oh well, I can fix it in resolve. Id consider the pocket camera but others have already stated seeing cross hatching with that camera too. Bottom line is, as much or as little as people complain, it is what it is. I either bite the bullet by dealing with the issues or bite the bullet and upgrade to Red.



Yea, the weird thing is I've been looking at footage I shot back in may at ISO 800 in very low light, and I see absolutely no CrossHatching. It's almost as if it's some calibration issue that slowly gets off over time? I know some people have said they've scene it on their cameras from the beginning, and I seem to remember noticing something like this in certain extreme situations when I first got the camera way back, but nothing like it is now. Like you said, I shoot a shot in broad daylight at the cameras native ISO and I see blatant crosshatching in the shadows. I can't remember when I first started noticing it, but I'm almost positive it wasn't there (or at least wasn't nearly as pronounced) when I first bought the camera. I did roll back through all of the previous firmwares and it seems that the crosshatching progressively got worse with each new update, so maybe that's why I'm noticing it so much more now? Either way, BlackMagic has been the source of MUCH stress for the past year and a half. Whether it's been waiting for them to ship the camera, being extremely late with the shipping, having zero communication, then finally shipping and having horrible magenta issues, then having horrible crosshatching issues, it's a nightmare. If I would have just bought a RED back when I pre-ordered the UM46 I would have paid it off by now and would have been happy with a professional camera, rather than stressing everyday about the failing image quality of the UM46. If they can fix this sensor I'll be happy. But your experience isn't giving me much hope :(
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 5:29 pm

Then again maybe I should just stop complaining and learn to use the tool that I have to get the best images I can. There is no perfect camera after all, at least not at this price point.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 6:20 pm

So my camera also exhibits this crosshatch pattern whenever I shoot above 2k... the weirdest part is I shot a bunch of 1 sec prores HQ clips same subject same light the only thing that changed was I shot all the way from 4.6k to 1920x1080.
as expected crosshatch was there in any footage above 2k.
Now here is the weird thing:

1.I rendered the 4.6k on a UHD timeline with FCPX and used the native file as non rendered file to test against eachother... both exhibits the behavior below:

Rendered file - viewed the footage with both VLC and quicktime and the crosshatch is there when view screen option is set to double size window or smaller BUT as soon as I chose to go to full screen option the crosshatch takes on the characteristics of regular noise and practically vanishes.

NON rendered file - cross hatch stays no matter what size the player size screen is set to on both players...

I am officially confused and don't know what to make of this.

Here is the file if you care to download this 1 sec clip and try for your self.
https://spaces.hightail.com/receive/ZEDPa
Eli Hershko
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 7:11 pm

I just played around with some files Eli sent to me. I saw the cross hatch pattern in VLC player on everything above HD except UHD 3840x2160, which is a multiple of 1920x1080. Here's what I found.

In Premiere on Windows 10, I saw the cross hatch pattern. Right click on the viewer and switch it to HIGH QUALITY PLAYBACK and you'll see that it goes away.

In OSX Sierra, I don't see the crosshatch pattern at all. Not in VLC or Final Cut 10.

Eli didn't see the pattern in Quicktime 7 or on another Windows machine he tried.

All of this leads me to believe this:

The pattern is NOT in the source files. The pattern is a SCALING ISSUE that results from a lower quality scaling algorithm. When I switched to HIGH QUALITY PLAYBACK in Premiere, it went away. Being that UHD is double 1080, the lower quality scaling algorithm(s) may not have an issue with down scaling to HD or with any type of scaling. With frame sizes NOT multiples of 1920x1080, it shows up.

For everyone having an issue, what is your monitor's resolution? I tried it on my desktop workstation that has 2 monitors. 2560x1440 and 1920x1200. I also tried is on my Mac laptop Macbook Pro Retina.

I'm wondering how much of this has to do with software (OS, Video Player, etc) and the resolution of your monitor. That seems to be the issue here. I do not see this issue in Resolve.

Again, I am 99% sure that this is NOT A PROBLEM WITH YOUR SOURCE FILES but rather it's a result of a lower quality scaling algorithm that is being used in the software you are seeing this in.

If anyone wants to send me footage, I'd be happy to test.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 7:48 pm

PaulDelVecchio wrote:I just played around with some files Eli sent to me. I saw the cross hatch pattern in VLC player on everything above HD except UHD 3840x2160, which is a multiple of 1920x1080. Here's what I found.

In Premiere on Windows 10, I saw the cross hatch pattern. Right click on the viewer and switch it to HIGH QUALITY PLAYBACK and you'll see that it goes away.

In OSX Sierra, I don't see the crosshatch pattern at all. Not in VLC or Final Cut 10.

Eli didn't see the pattern in Quicktime 7 or on another Windows machine he tried.

All of this leads me to believe this:

The pattern is NOT in the source files. The pattern is a SCALING ISSUE that results from a lower quality scaling algorithm. When I switched to HIGH QUALITY PLAYBACK in Premiere, it went away. Being that UHD is double 1080, the lower quality scaling algorithm(s) may not have an issue with down scaling to HD or with any type of scaling. With frame sizes NOT multiples of 1920x1080, it shows up.

For everyone having an issue, what is your monitor's resolution? I tried it on my desktop workstation that has 2 monitors. 2560x1440 and 1920x1200. I also tried is on my Mac laptop Macbook Pro Retina.

I'm wondering how much of this has to do with software (OS, Video Player, etc) and the resolution of your monitor. That seems to be the issue here. I do not see this issue in Resolve.

Again, I am 99% sure that this is NOT A PROBLEM WITH YOUR SOURCE FILES but rather it's a result of a lower quality scaling algorithm that is being used in the software you are seeing this in.

If anyone wants to send me footage, I'd be happy to test.



Hey Paul,

I use 1920x1080 monitors and also my Macbook Pro Retina screen. I see the crosshatching on both when playing in VLC, Quicktime, REsolve, Premiere. Here's some clips you can download from google drive and check them out. Both shot at ISO 800 Prores 422 I believe (maybe LT). On the one outside you can see the crosshatching in the shadows, and the one inside you can see the crosshatching all over. I am very curious about what you said about not seeing it anymore in OSX Sierra. I will install that right now and test it out.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 9:14 pm

I think we're heading in the right direction. Paul you are right, when you turn on High Quality Playback it disappears. It still shows up online though (Chrome, Firefox). It's no doubt a scaling issue. I just wonder where it can be remedied in the actual render.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 9:49 pm

This is not a scaling issue. I brought those clips into Nuke and pulled the pattern out so you can see what is causing the crosss hatch pattern. Nuke is designed as a professional compositing program where the ability to see exactly what you are going to get is absolutely critical, you need to be able to zoom in on your footage and know that what you are seeing will be on a the rendered output. The files were imported and worked with at their native resolution.

Here are 2 images. 1 is a 1:1 100 x 100 pixel image with the captured cross hatch patterns it was rendered out of Nuke to a jpg file. This pattern is fixed, it doesn't move and is not random. Also the pattern lines up perfectly in the same spot in both files so it doesn't vary by file either. The other is a the 100 pixel image scaled up 400% to make it easier to see.

crosshatch-100.jpg
100% zoom
crosshatch-100.jpg (4.65 KiB) Viewed 6328 times


crosshatch-400.jpg
400% zoom
crosshatch-400.jpg (38.34 KiB) Viewed 6328 times
David Hessel
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 10:02 pm

Phillip Bergman wrote:
PaulDelVecchio wrote:I just played around with some files Eli sent to me. I saw the cross hatch pattern in VLC player on everything above HD except UHD 3840x2160, which is a multiple of 1920x1080. Here's what I found.

In Premiere on Windows 10, I saw the cross hatch pattern. Right click on the viewer and switch it to HIGH QUALITY PLAYBACK and you'll see that it goes away.

In OSX Sierra, I don't see the crosshatch pattern at all. Not in VLC or Final Cut 10.

Eli didn't see the pattern in Quicktime 7 or on another Windows machine he tried.

All of this leads me to believe this:

The pattern is NOT in the source files. The pattern is a SCALING ISSUE that results from a lower quality scaling algorithm. When I switched to HIGH QUALITY PLAYBACK in Premiere, it went away. Being that UHD is double 1080, the lower quality scaling algorithm(s) may not have an issue with down scaling to HD or with any type of scaling. With frame sizes NOT multiples of 1920x1080, it shows up.

For everyone having an issue, what is your monitor's resolution? I tried it on my desktop workstation that has 2 monitors. 2560x1440 and 1920x1200. I also tried is on my Mac laptop Macbook Pro Retina.

I'm wondering how much of this has to do with software (OS, Video Player, etc) and the resolution of your monitor. That seems to be the issue here. I do not see this issue in Resolve.

Again, I am 99% sure that this is NOT A PROBLEM WITH YOUR SOURCE FILES but rather it's a result of a lower quality scaling algorithm that is being used in the software you are seeing this in.

If anyone wants to send me footage, I'd be happy to test.



Hey Paul,

I use 1920x1080 monitors and also my Macbook Pro Retina screen. I see the crosshatching on both when playing in VLC, Quicktime, REsolve, Premiere. Here's some clips you can download from google drive and check them out. Both shot at ISO 800 Prores 422 I believe (maybe LT). On the one outside you can see the crosshatching in the shadows, and the one inside you can see the crosshatching all over. I am very curious about what you said about not seeing it anymore in OSX Sierra. I will install that right now and test it out.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing


Hi Phillip,
I viewed your indoor footage with VLC/Quicktime 7/Quicktime8 and they all exhibits the same way mine did.
In any of the player unless viewed in the ENTER FULL SCREEN mode showed the pattern but as soon as I viewed it in a FULL SCREEN mode the pattern vanished.
Eli Hershko
http://www.conjuredvisions.com
http://pro.imdb.com/name/nm2860666/
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 10:08 pm

Even stranger is when I upload footage that exhibits that pattern into say quicktime 8 and manually tries to change the size of the viewing screen by grabbing the corner and increasing or decreasing the size of the viewing screen the pattern keeps changing in intensity and size.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 10:21 pm

The two instances you are describing is a playback scaling issue. This pattern exists but depending on the final playback resolution its intensity can be enhanced or reduced depending on how much playback scaling is going on. Also I don't know about any of you but this is not the first UHD prores footage I have dealt with and I have never encountered this issue before. There is a problem with these files, this pattern is in the file itself. I can isolate it and use it for masking.
David Hessel
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 10:44 pm

Michael McCaffrey wrote:Not impressed with this camera. People say, 'oh shoot it with more light.' If that worked, then why do the shadows of the trees I shot in the park in the middle of the day have FPN? I should have ZERO problem getting clean shadows with that much light outside in the middle of the day at 400/800iso. Crazy.

Post a DNG of this. Lets see it.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Sep 22, 2016 11:39 pm

Phillip Bergman wrote:

Hey Paul,

I use 1920x1080 monitors and also my Macbook Pro Retina screen. I see the crosshatching on both when playing in VLC, Quicktime, REsolve, Premiere. Here's some clips you can download from google drive and check them out. Both shot at ISO 800 Prores 422 I believe (maybe LT). On the one outside you can see the crosshatching in the shadows, and the one inside you can see the crosshatching all over. I am very curious about what you said about not seeing it anymore in OSX Sierra. I will install that right now and test it out.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing


I just tried these clips. Same thing. If I just hit play when they're scaled, I see a tiny crosshatch pattern all over the entire image. If I check "High Quality Playback," I don't see it. I don't see it in Resolve either.
Paul Del Vecchio - Director/Producer
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Sep 23, 2016 12:02 am

PaulDelVecchio wrote:
Phillip Bergman wrote:

Hey Paul,

I use 1920x1080 monitors and also my Macbook Pro Retina screen. I see the crosshatching on both when playing in VLC, Quicktime, REsolve, Premiere. Here's some clips you can download from google drive and check them out. Both shot at ISO 800 Prores 422 I believe (maybe LT). On the one outside you can see the crosshatching in the shadows, and the one inside you can see the crosshatching all over. I am very curious about what you said about not seeing it anymore in OSX Sierra. I will install that right now and test it out.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing


I just tried these clips. Same thing. If I just hit play when they're scaled, I see a tiny crosshatch pattern all over the entire image. If I check "High Quality Playback," I don't see it. I don't see it in Resolve either.


Hey Paul,

What specific settings to you have to change in resolve? Because I always see the cross hatching in resolve. If It's not playing I don't see it. But as soon as I hit play, it shows up. Rendering gets rid of it though.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Sep 23, 2016 12:08 am

David Hessel wrote:The two instances you are describing is a playback scaling issue. This pattern exists but depending on the final playback resolution its intensity can be enhanced or reduced depending on how much playback scaling is going on. Also I don't know about any of you but this is not the first UHD prores footage I have dealt with and I have never encountered this issue before. There is a problem with these files, this pattern is in the file itself. I can isolate it and use it for masking.


Yea, see this is what annoys me. Everyone keeps saying, "it's just a scaling issue", as if that's totally normal. Yet I've never seen footage do this before so it's very hard to believe that this is just something that doesn't matter. I would rather not see awful patterns all over my footage upon previewing my files. If I shoot at 200 ISO it's pretty much not visible. If I shoot at 1600 ISO, it's very visible. This tells me it isn't just a "scaling issue", or at least not completely. There's some element of sensor pattern noise that is effecting it as well.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Sep 23, 2016 12:26 am

Phillip Bergman wrote:There's some element of sensor pattern noise that is effecting it as well.

have a look at the images I posted, the grid like structure is the cause of the issue. It would be great to see a 4.6k dng.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Sep 23, 2016 1:01 am

what really concerns me is that not all of the 4.6k cameras are doing that... I spoke/communicated with several people on this forum as well as BMCUSER who said their cameras do not exhibit this pattern...
The question is the same as the magenta shading question. Are all ursa minis 4.0 beta 2 act that way. If not than something is up with the one that show this ugly pattern.

This is starting to really annoy the heck out of me, first the magenta thing now this... like what is up?
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Sep 23, 2016 1:45 am

Phillip Bergman wrote:
Hey Paul,

What specific settings to you have to change in resolve? Because I always see the cross hatching in resolve. If It's not playing I don't see it. But as soon as I hit play, it shows up. Rendering gets rid of it though.



Image

Image
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Sep 23, 2016 1:50 am

Phillip Bergman wrote:
David Hessel wrote:The two instances you are describing is a playback scaling issue. This pattern exists but depending on the final playback resolution its intensity can be enhanced or reduced depending on how much playback scaling is going on. Also I don't know about any of you but this is not the first UHD prores footage I have dealt with and I have never encountered this issue before. There is a problem with these files, this pattern is in the file itself. I can isolate it and use it for masking.


Yea, see this is what annoys me. Everyone keeps saying, "it's just a scaling issue", as if that's totally normal. Yet I've never seen footage do this before so it's very hard to believe that this is just something that doesn't matter. I would rather not see awful patterns all over my footage upon previewing my files. If I shoot at 200 ISO it's pretty much not visible. If I shoot at 1600 ISO, it's very visible. This tells me it isn't just a "scaling issue", or at least not completely. There's some element of sensor pattern noise that is effecting it as well.


So why am I not seeing it then? Or why can I "fix it" if it is indeed "baked in" to the source files? I don't doubt there's an issue here, but at the same time, I'm able to fix the issue with a higher quality scaling method.

Unless there are 2 different issues going on here.....

Either way, the fact that some are saying it doesn't happen to anything but 4.6k footage is something to look into.
Paul Del Vecchio - Director/Producer
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