Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

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rick.lang

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Nov 29, 2016 4:28 pm

Ryan, I don't think Netflix excludes the URSA Mini 4.6K, but I could be wrong. They exclude the URSA Mini 4K because it shoots 4000x2160 whereas the 4.6K shoots 4608x2592 and exceeds their minimum requirements.


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thomas bruegger

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Nov 29, 2016 5:25 pm

John Brawley wrote:I've just finished a 7 week shoot with three bodies (actually four very occasionally) and no, we've not been bitten by crosshatching, magenta corners or FPN.

The cameras have performed magnificently, better than I hoped. This is the first time I've shot a series using them as the A camera.
JB


Would love to see it, when will this series be released? Where will it be aired?

btw. good to see you back on the forum again! :D
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John Brawley

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Nov 30, 2016 4:23 am

thomas bruegger wrote:
Would love to see it, when will this series be released? Where will it be aired?


It's an ABC series (Not american ABC, but the Aussie version of the BBC) and will air in the new year.

JB
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Ryan Hamblin

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Nov 30, 2016 6:24 am

Sorry rick I meant Alexa mini and Amira. The upscale in their cameras are really nice. I am partial though to the 4.6k and downsample to 4K and uhd
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Aaron Green

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Nov 30, 2016 6:38 pm

So I spent $160 to ship/insure my camera to BM. Emailed twice to make sure they received it. Heard nothing. 12 days later I see a FedEx email with my return shipping info. I email again to ask what they evaluated and discovered. Heard nothing. This really irritated me b/c I wanted to show them clear examples of the crosshatching I saved in photoshop in case they claimed "they didn't see it."
I got my camera back today. Same one. Nothing has changed. Same crosshatching. Still trying to get in contact with someone. :oops:
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Nov 30, 2016 7:59 pm

Ryan Hamblin wrote:Sorry rick I meant Alexa mini and Amira. The upscale in their cameras are really nice. I am partial though to the 4.6k and downsample to 4K and uhd

Netflix has their weird policies that have made it that they primarily shoot on RED. I think they probably have a secret deal of some kind that makes it so that their shows are exclusively shot on the RED. This is a theory of my own.

HBO makes a ton of their shows on the ALEXA. They do use the RED, but the primary camera is the ALEXA. The most recent exception is Westworld, which shot on 35mm Film.

I'm getting my first UHD HDR TV this week as an early X-Mas gift. I'll see what I can watch in UHD through their Smart TV Internet connected apps. Sadly my AppleTV (4th Generation) doesn't support UHD yet. So I'm bound to the apps built in to the TV. Netflix is a guaranteed app, and so I'll start judging their content on the UHD merits. I don't know how much HDR content is out yet. I know YouTube just created a channel and added support.

Overall, give it time and I'm positive a lot more content will be made with the URSA Mini 4.6K (and URSA 4.6K when the turret is released). I love my UM4.6K camera. If I were to strike a deal with Netflix to shoot a TV series I'd push for it to be done with the URSA Mini 4.6K.
"Movies are not watched. They are an encounter with a life's experience not your own." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini 4.6K EF & Cinema Camera 2.5K EF
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James Alexander Barnett

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Nov 30, 2016 9:47 pm

Received my new camera today and there is still small amounts of crosshatching and I still get the weird scaling artififacts at certain percentages however it does seem more mild than the last camera I had.

Will wait to see what this black shading calibration does in the future, the new camera was defiantly a newer unit as it came with v4.0 firmware installed.

Shooting 4K over the next few days so will see what sort of results I get.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Nov 30, 2016 10:20 pm

Aaron Green wrote:So I spent $160 to ship/insure my camera to BM. Emailed twice to make sure they received it. Heard nothing. 12 days later I see a FedEx email with my return shipping info. I email again to ask what they evaluated and discovered. Heard nothing. This really irritated me b/c I wanted to show them clear examples of the crosshatching I saved in photoshop in case they claimed "they didn't see it."
I got my camera back today. Same one. Nothing has changed. Same crosshatching. Still trying to get in contact with someone. :oops:


In my experience, the process breaks down between the techs and customer service. The service people don't seem to have much of a grasp on anything technical that occurs, and they also don't seem to be a part of the process *after* the tech has looked at the camera.

Expected:

Customer: "My camera is broken!"
Service: "Oh no, let's take a look at that."
** after camera arrives **
Service: "We received the camera and have passed it along to our technicians. They're going to take a look. Once they share their findings with me, I'll pass them on to you"
** after camera is inspected **
Service: "Results are in-- they can't reproduce. Can you provide more instructions, or would you prefer we return your camera?"

Actual:

Customer: "My camera is broken!"
Service: "Prove it."
Customer: ** sends several DNG and video files ** (this likely goes back and forth at least 1-2 more times)
Service: "Okay, send it in."
** after camera arrives **
Customer: "Did you receive the camera?"
Service: "Yes, it is with the technicians now."
** after camera is marked for return shipment **
Customer: "What is being shipped to me?"
Service: "Unfortunately, the technicians could not reproduce your issue. We are returning your camera."

This happened twice for me.

On a technical note, there seems to be an intersecting point between early sensors with magenta vignetting and newer sensors with crosshatching. The hatch is almost never-to-be-seen with my 309xxxx camera, but is 100% in-your-face with 328xxxx and 332xxxx units I've tried. My 309 has very strong magenta vignetting, while the 328 has little and the 322 has absolutely none.

For new shoppers, instead of hoping for a newer serial, you might want to choose between old sensor (magenta corners) and new sensor (minesweeper footage). Just return as defective to the retailer until you get your preferred lesser of two evils. I'm kind of glad to have magenta corners, after having tried the newer units.

Sorry to go off in a few directions there. Hopefully this contributed something useful to the discussion. If not, scroll by :)
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rick.lang

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 01, 2016 1:18 am

James, what are the first four digits of your serial number?


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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 01, 2016 1:37 am

Not sure that serial number theory holds. My current Ursa Mini serial is 2916XXX. It never had a glaring magenta problem (not like my first that was completely pink), but it did have really bad crosshatching before RMA.
After RMA it doesn't manifest like it did and I have not seen crosshatching in my current workflow, but tests posted earlier in the thread by others show that when debayered in ACR the old crosshatch patterns can be seen.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 01, 2016 1:56 am

John Brawley wrote:I've just finished a 7 week shoot with three bodies (actually four very occasionally) and no, we've not been bitten by crosshatching, magenta corners or FPN.
JB


I am very glad to hear it. I realize this is a delicate question, but are these off the shelf or did they come direct from BMD and got a little extra loving care when it came to quality control? Your original demo footage is also absent these problems so it would make sense that subsequent cameras from BMD to you are likely to have been given the same careful QC.

Of the four Ursa Mini 4.6K bodies I have personally shot with (2 purchased, 1 rented, and another that belongs to a friend), each one has had one or more of the listed problems. Either I have absolutely the worst luck, or there is some meaningful difference with the way cameras are produced and/or calibrated for general distribution.
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Kyle Gordon

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 01, 2016 4:15 am

Jamie, I never saw a camera that didn't have some magenta vignetting at f/8 on the 35mm side of a Sigma 18-35mm lens (for example).

I have DNGs of at least 40 different cameras now, and no one has ever been able to produce a fully magenta corners free image under those conditions when shooting an evenly lit white wall.

It would be easy to shut me up, but no one has.

I also understand that this camera makes incredible images, not just for the price, but just plain incredible images.

I also know that in the hands, and with the lighting, of of a skilled cinematographer like JB, the camera can be used to make professional output. But I just dunno if he ever shoots at f/8 and 35mm. Maybe he just doesnt have to.

There's a lot of really good looking footage out there, but there are truths to the performance of this sensor too, and at the very least, you can work "around" those scenarios.

But the facts are what they are. They fixed a lot of the magenta fringing, but not all of it. And there is some issue with the crosshatching too. Also techniques for avoiding it.

Is that fair?
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rick.lang

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 01, 2016 4:29 pm

Sure fair observation based on your experiences. But it's also fair to say that when you're shooting actual motion subjects and not capturing evenly lit white walls, especially if your subject catches the viewers' eyes, many cameras will not exhibit these problems in actual creative use.


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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 01, 2016 6:26 pm

Rick, if the camera adds magenta at certain f stops and focal lengths on a white wall, then it is introducing that color shift in every shot that uses that f stop and focal length. It might not be as easy to see, but it's there nonetheless.

Since the pause, the sensors have been much cleaner, and the right side heaviness is gone. THere was some change in the FW too, and that helped as well. So they did address some of the main issues, and I'd say they fixed 2/3 of the magenta vignetting problem with that in terms of how badly it affects the image.

But they did say that the FW upgrade wasnt the "final mic drop" and since then, there hasnt been any more word, or change. So I would like to see them finish the job.

This is still an amazing camera. I shouldnt have to keep saying that, but the way people seem to think online, everything boils down to "camera good" or "camera bad" and I think it's a lot more complicated than that.

It's a great camera. It does have this magenta fringing problem at certain settings. A lot of people never use those settings. I'd love to see BM continue to fix the problem, and hear that they still care about it, so from that point of view, I'm less inclined to be an apologist for it's faults, and more interested in acknowledging the issue, and hopefully BM working on a fix.
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rick.lang

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 01, 2016 7:18 pm

Amen to that, Kyle.


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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 01, 2016 8:02 pm

rick.lang wrote:Sure fair observation based on your experiences. But it's also fair to say that when you're shooting actual motion subjects and not capturing evenly lit white walls, especially if your subject catches the viewers' eyes, many cameras will not exhibit these problems in actual creative use.
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I agree with that assessment for the magenta vignette. The crosshatching, on the other hand, was an obvious and serious issue in actual creative use on my current Ursa Mini before it went through RMA.
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rick.lang

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 01, 2016 8:04 pm

Yes, I meant my remarks to apply to the previous post about the magenta issue.


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Aaron Green

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 01, 2016 10:01 pm

Anyone want to trade a magenta for a cross hatch?
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 01, 2016 11:09 pm

As I have already stated on this thread we are working on this... Both in calibration and as a software update but these things take time. Of course we care about these issues Kyle... We are constantly working on improving our cameras in every way we can.

We have delivered updates for the magenta issue over the last few months as well as delivering a massive upgrade to the URSA Mini's feature set as a free software update. As I mentioned earlier in this thread we have a build coming through that will have significant improvements for crosshatch.

It is a great honour that the URSA Mini is now being used as a main camera on major productions and this shows how far we have come. It is also a really big compliment that URSA Mini 4.6K is being considered by many DP's alongside the other cameras John mentioned in his post.

We are hoping to get this new build out to our Beta testers today and will get it to you as a general release as soon as we can.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 01, 2016 11:15 pm

Tim this is great news. A few little dings aside, you have a hell of a camera there. Im glad to hear youre still working on the magenta vignetting too, I hadnt heard anything about it since FW 3.3 - little updates like this mean so much, thank you.
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John Brawley

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 01, 2016 11:33 pm

You get to a certain point where you have to decide if this is a problem in your own circumstance.

I find that a lot of problems with a lot of cameras are really half truths or rumours.

So far I can say this.

I've been shooting nearly constantly for more than a year. I have one camera that was an early engineering sample. Stretching the bounds of my NDA, these tend to be WORSE than shipping production versions. They are earlier samples of things like sensors and internal boards not to mention calibration.

I have two more that are production versions that were bought without connection me (the same as you guys) and I now have a fourth production camera that's a spare that's barely been used.

In 12 months of shooting nearly every day I've never had a problem with my corners or crosshatching.

My footage is scrutinised daily by a big name post house. It gets handled by multiple sets of editors and post people, both attached to the production and to the facility.

In multiple grades of now hours of finished broadcast Television I've never been bounced on a tech check for any Footage from these cameras.

Never once. On multiple jobs. With multiple people. With multiple facilities. None with vested interests.

So...the question becomes...

Is this problem, although reproducible, actually going to affect your work.

For me the answer is no, not yet.

Frankly, I think aliasing is a bigger potential issue for my work than magenta corners or crosshatching.

Now you point a camera at a test chart and the aliasing will look like the camera has major major problems. A critical flaw. Like unusable. But then you go and shoot with it and find (well in my work) that it rarely if ever is actually a problem on set.

For me, that's the real test. I think this place is a measure of much this issue is getting in the way.

It seems to me most people are just getting on with working and finding a way to either work around it or don't find it a problem in the first place (I'm in that camp).

Also, on CML, a far more high end forum of top level practioners, when a general discussion started about this camera I found one post very interesting.

(Reposted from Facebook / CML)

IMG_4318.JPG
IMG_4318.JPG (71.81 KiB) Viewed 4094 times


David Stump ASC quite literally wrote the book on digital imaging.

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Cinemato ... 0240817915

He's also the chair of the ASC camera technical committee.

I reckon his quote says much the same thing I've been saying.

JB
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Dec 02, 2016 12:42 am

John Brawley wrote: So...the question becomes...

Is this problem, although reproducible, actually going to affect your work.

For me the answer is no, not yet.


I really do appreciate your candid and honest answers JB. Thank you for sharing them. It is really good to have you back on the forum regularly.

The crosshatching problems I had were a problem in real production for me. I shots tests before taking the camera on paid gigs and didn’t notice the issue at all because I never scaled my test images. Then a documentary client hired me to shoot UDH ProRes so that they could reposition and zoom into them on a 1080p timeline in Premiere Pro. When they saw the crosshatch pattern in their 1080p deliverables, that was a very real problem. At first I didn’t believe them, I thought they had done something wrong. I made them show me their workflow and then ran my own tests. Sure, enough, they were right. The problem wasn’t their workflow, it was the UHD ProRes files from my Ursa Mini. Here on the forum I found many others posting about the same issue.

I am seriously glad you haven’t run into this problem. I also agree that it is a fantastic camera. I own it and love shooting with it.

It is also true that it took a couple returned bodies and an RMA before I had a properly working camera that I could confidently shoot with. I treat the Ursa Mini I currently own as if it were priceless because if it’s damaged or stolen, my experience so far is that I can't just go buy another one off the shelf and expect it to work out of the box.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Dec 02, 2016 2:12 am

Tim Schumann wrote:As I have already stated on this thread we are working on this... Both in calibration and as a software update but these things take time. Of course we care about these issues Kyle... We are constantly working on improving our cameras in every way we can.

We have delivered updates for the magenta issue over the last few months as well as delivering a massive upgrade to the URSA Mini's feature set as a free software update. As I mentioned earlier in this thread we have a build coming through that will have significant improvements for crosshatch.

It is a great honour that the URSA Mini is now being used as a main camera on major productions and this shows how far we have come. It is also a really big compliment that URSA Mini 4.6K is being considered by many DP's alongside the other cameras John mentioned in his post.

We are hoping to get this new build out to our Beta testers today and will get it to you as a general release as soon as we can.


I realize what I'm about to say has been said before. I realize I'm a newb to this forum. But please consider posting more like this, far more often. It is so appreciated by folks like myself. Even if you, literally, just reposted the same thing for weeks, it would be interpreted as BM is listening and something is in the works. Silence can mean so many different things, and many of them are negative. So just showing up regularly would be really helpful.

I've owned almost every BM camera except the mini. I'm planning on purchasing it in 2017. I'm a huge fan. Thanks in advance.
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rick.lang

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Dec 02, 2016 2:18 am

Sounds like you're planning a purchase in early April 2017. Should be a very interesting time!


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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Dec 02, 2016 6:19 am

rick.lang wrote:Sounds like you're planning a purchase in early April 2017. Should be a very interesting time!

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Are you really good at reading between the lines, or was it that obvious?
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Aaron Green

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Dec 02, 2016 12:32 pm

John Brawley wrote:You get to a certain point where you have to decide if this is a problem in your own circumstance.

I find that a lot of problems with a lot of cameras are really half truths or rumours.

So far I can say this.

I've been shooting nearly constantly for more than a year. I have one camera that was an early engineering sample. Stretching the bounds of my NDA, these tend to be WORSE than shipping production versions. They are earlier samples of things like sensors and internal boards not to mention calibration.

I have two more that are production versions that were bought without connection me (the same as you guys) and I now have a fourth production camera that's a spare that's barely been used.

In 12 months of shooting nearly every day I've never had a problem with my corners or crosshatching.

My footage is scrutinised daily by a big name post house. It gets handled by multiple sets of editors and post people, both attached to the production and to the facility.

In multiple grades of now hours of finished broadcast Television I've never been bounced on a tech check for any Footage from these cameras.

Never once. On multiple jobs. With multiple people. With multiple facilities. None with vested interests.

So...the question becomes...

Is this problem, although reproducible, actually going to affect your work.

For me the answer is no, not yet.

Frankly, I think aliasing is a bigger potential issue for my work than magenta corners or crosshatching.

Now you point a camera at a test chart and the aliasing will look like the camera has major major problems. A critical flaw. Like unusable. But then you go and shoot with it and find (well in my work) that it rarely if ever is actually a problem on set.

For me, that's the real test. I think this place is a measure of much this issue is getting in the way.

It seems to me most people are just getting on with working and finding a way to either work around it or don't find it a problem in the first place (I'm in that camp).

Also, on CML, a far more high end forum of top level practioners, when a general discussion started about this camera I found one post very interesting.

(Reposted from Facebook / CML)

IMG_4318.JPG


David Stump ASC quite literally wrote the book on digital imaging.

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Cinemato ... 0240817915

He's also the chair of the ASC camera technical committee.

I reckon his quote says much the same thing I've been saying.

JB


The fact that good units are available is the most frustrating part. I don't believe that I'm doing anything wrong do make crosshatch patterns appear. Here is the thread I started awhile back where others noticed it before myself. Zak Forsman posted a screenshot from his end. I'm shooting at 800ASA with enough light.
http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?18085 ... 4-6K-frame)
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Dec 05, 2016 7:50 pm

Ok, so I got my second Unit back from RMA on Friday, and once again they just sent me a new camera....HOWEVER, this time, the crosshatching problem has been GREATLY reduced. I can still make it show up (though very faintly) if I turn on detail sharpening and crank up the ISO to 1600...however comparing my shots from my previous camera to this new one they sent me, the new one looks MUCH cleaner. So I'm satisfied at the moment and will eagerly await this new In Unit Calibration firmware they are currently working on.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Dec 05, 2016 8:04 pm

Also here are some images of a screen shot of how the new and old clips looked upon playback on my computer...

New Camera UHD800ISODetailOff.jpg
New Camera UHD800ISODetailOff.jpg (456.61 KiB) Viewed 3865 times


Old Camera UHD800ISODetailOff.jpg
Old Camera UHD800ISODetailOff.jpg (407.28 KiB) Viewed 3865 times


also here's a link to a google drive folder where I exported a Frame Grab from both the old cam and new cam. If you zoom in a lot on each picture you can see that the old cam has a crosshatched pattern noise which creates the really bad crosshatch pattern on playback as seen in the screen shots above. If you zoom in on the new cam frame grab, the noise looks more natural and not crosshatched. Both cams were shot at UHD 800 ISO with Detail sharpening turned off. Like I said, the crosshatching is still there on this new cam but it has been greatly diminished to a much much more acceptable level for shooting!

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
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rick.lang

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Dec 05, 2016 8:59 pm

First four digits of your new camera, Phillip?


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James Alexander Barnett

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Dec 05, 2016 11:29 pm

rick.lang wrote:James, what are the first four digits of your serial number?

Hi Rick,


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The first 4 digits of my new camera are 3379, however I am getting the same results as my previous camera unfortunately.
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rick.lang

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Dec 06, 2016 6:01 pm

Oh! Let's hope the next firmware puts an end to the Cross Hatching thread that won't go away!


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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Dec 06, 2016 8:09 pm

rick.lang wrote:First four digits of your new camera, Phillip?


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First four of my camera are 3390, and like I said, the crosshatching is still there, just MUCH improved from my previous cam
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Dec 07, 2016 11:01 pm

I just ran into this today! After reading this thread of related posts https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50175&p=313142#p313142
I was at least hopeful it wasn't the camera. I seemed to have the same problem where if I had a project in the same resolution as I filmed in i.e. Shot 4.6K RAW and then instead of editing in an UHD project I manually entered in a 4.6K resolution to match my footage. In this circumstance I was getting this crosshatching effect. I think it took me this long to notice because I've usually just edited in UHD. I the linked topic he mentions some drx files or something he got from black magic that fixed the problem.
So I checked to see if there was an update for Resolve and there was. I was on 12.5 and I just downloaded 12.5.3. THAT FIXED IT FOR ME!! I'm re-exporting now and as far as I can tell the crosshatching is gone! I'll write back if the final render has a different outcome, but I'm pretty hopeful!
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Tommaso Alvisi

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Dec 07, 2016 11:04 pm

Hey Brett,

keep us posted!!
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Dec 07, 2016 11:49 pm

The effect can be filtered out using the blurring that occurs when you downscale. Check which Image Scaling algorithm you're using in Resolve (Project Settings > Image Scaling > Resize Filter). "Bilinear" will reveal the issue, while others will hopefully hide it.

But blurring doesn't help the fact that the issue is embedded in the original footage. That makes shooting windowed ProRes especially troublesome. Otherwise you should be fine, but it is irritating.
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brettsmith

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 08, 2016 1:14 am

Alright! The render looks perfect now! It had me scared after that first render. Looks like all it took for me was the update!
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Valentin Remy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 08, 2016 1:21 am

Check my answer in the other cross hatch thread ^^
http://www.valentinremy.be
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brettsmith

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 08, 2016 6:15 pm

Ya looks like it's still there Valentin :( It doesn't show up in Resolve, and the output looked clean from there, but then in premiere its has the hatching in the full quality output and while playing in Premiere. If I pause it the hatching goes away!! What is going on here!?
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Valentin Remy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 08, 2016 8:09 pm

brettsmith wrote:Ya looks like it's still there Valentin :( It doesn't show up in Resolve, and the output looked clean from there, but then in premiere its has the hatching in the full quality output and while playing in Premiere. If I pause it the hatching goes away!! What is going on here!?


The grid effect you see on playback is just a consequence. The real problem here is that there is some kind of a fixed grid pattern layered above the footage coming out of the Ursa Mini at the pixel level.

Depending on the software you use and its playback quality, you'll see a bigger grid or not.

When it's high quality playback, you won't see the bigger grid effect on the whole image.
When it's a lower quality playback, you'll see it.

But in both cases, there's still a grid at the pixel level.

In Premiere, you can turn High Quality Playback in the options of your preview windows.
You won't see the bigger grid when you play the footage, but when you zoom in you'll see the grid anyway (high playback quality or not).

TL;DR : the grid on playback is just a consequence of the real problem, which is the weird grid you can see when you zoom at like 100, 200%

You can RMA your camera, they'll improve it (they did for mine), but it will still be there.
They acknowledged the issue in this thread, a fix is coming :)
http://www.valentinremy.be
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 08, 2016 8:28 pm

Valentin Remy wrote:You can RMA your camera, they'll improve it (they did for mine), but it will still be there.
They acknowledged the issue in this thread, a fix is coming :)


I think the "fix" is the same thing they did to your camera when they had it:

"We have a software build we are working on that will allow users to run black calibration in the field. This should show the same sort of results as those customers who have had their cameras improved recently under RMA."

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51936&start=350#p310054
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Valentin Remy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 08, 2016 9:03 pm

Ah, right, it was better in my memory... "Sort of result"

Still vague...
http://www.valentinremy.be
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Dec 08, 2016 9:54 pm

My fixed camera is excellent in the blacks but the issue is still there in above-black areas. So it seems the black calibration does exactly what it sounds like, but it doesn't really fix cross hatching. Maybe the release version of the firmware will be better.
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Andrew Walldez

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Dec 12, 2016 3:40 am

I just filmed the LA Auto Show in 4K prores 422. Here you can see what looks like old tv lines in the black areas wherever there is something black.




This is clearly an issue. Imagine my guilt when I had to deliver this to a client of mine for filming a different part of the show. Needless to say, I was embarrassed. It is embarrassing. I am embarrassed. Maybe a regular person won't notice it, but that's all i can see when i watch it.
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Jonesy Jones

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Dec 12, 2016 4:05 am

Andrew Walldez wrote:This is clearly an issue. Imagine my guilt when I had to deliver this to a client of mine for filming a different part of the show. Needless to say, I was embarrassed. It is embarrassing. I am embarrassed. Maybe a regular person won't notice it, but that's all i can see when i watch it.


Could you point out specifically where the problem is, like timecode and part of the frame? I can't see it. What I see in the darks is something that looks like macro blocking or something. I don't perceive it as lines or crosshatch. It just looks like video artifacts to me. Definitely not something you'd expect to see in "cinema", but I'd of not guessed the UM46 was the camera and would have attributed the problem to Youtube compression.
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Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Dec 12, 2016 4:48 am

Andrew, looks spectacular on my iPad Air Retina screen. Even the worst clip at 6:44 is all right in motion. Enjoy your video. I'm happy I'm a regular guy!

Love the LA Auto Show I used to attend so thanks for showing us the cars for this year.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
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Andrew Walldez

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Dec 12, 2016 7:03 am

Jonesy Jones wrote:
Andrew Walldez wrote:This is clearly an issue. Imagine my guilt when I had to deliver this to a client of mine for filming a different part of the show. Needless to say, I was embarrassed. It is embarrassing. I am embarrassed. Maybe a regular person won't notice it, but that's all i can see when i watch it.


Could you point out specifically where the problem is, like timecode and part of the frame? I can't see it. What I see in the darks is something that looks like macro blocking or something. I don't perceive it as lines or crosshatch. It just looks like video artifacts to me. Definitely not something you'd expect to see in "cinema", but I'd of not guessed the UM46 was the camera and would have attributed the problem to Youtube compression.



While i could point it out in practically every frame, i won't go that far.
For fun here is the tie fighter first.
Image
Image

Probably the best example
Image
Image
Image
Image


Also some serious moire
Image

Here is a link to the album so you can view them in their proper resolution - http://imgur.com/a/OhLyQ


I'm really hoping there is a fix for this and the magenta corners in the next firmware update.I don't even care about more new features. I just wish for a list of fixes, Please Santa, all i want for christmas.... is a fix in firmware update. Imagine if all these things were fixed, this camera would be unstoppable! They will sell a million units by christmas, and they already can't make them fast enough.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Dec 12, 2016 7:53 am

Andrew Walldez wrote:I'm really hoping there is a fix for this and the magenta corners in the next firmware update.I don't even care about more new features. I just wish for a list of fixes, Please Santa, all i want for christmas.... is a fix in firmware update. Imagine if all these things were fixed, this camera would be unstoppable! They will sell a million units by christmas, and they already can't make them fast enough.


why don't just shift to 0.5 image position X/Y for RAW or pan/tilt in color page for ProRes to fix this as described many times in this thread until new firmware released? It also acts as very light OLPF filter as bonus.
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Andrew Walldez

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Dec 12, 2016 8:00 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:
Andrew Walldez wrote:I'm really hoping there is a fix for this and the magenta corners in the next firmware update.I don't even care about more new features. I just wish for a list of fixes, Please Santa, all i want for christmas.... is a fix in firmware update. Imagine if all these things were fixed, this camera would be unstoppable! They will sell a million units by christmas, and they already can't make them fast enough.


why don't just shift to 0.5 image position X/Y for RAW or pan/tilt in color page for ProRes to fix this as described many times in this thread until new firmware released? It also acts as very light OLPF filter as bonus.



Ah yes, you might have missed the part where I wrote that I filmed this in prores 422. It is not in raw and is totally baked in to the image. If i shift the image in any direction the crosshatching just turns to that particular direction.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Dec 12, 2016 8:04 am

Andrew Walldez wrote:
Dmitry Shijan wrote:
Andrew Walldez wrote:I'm really hoping there is a fix for this and the magenta corners in the next firmware update.I don't even care about more new features. I just wish for a list of fixes, Please Santa, all i want for christmas.... is a fix in firmware update. Imagine if all these things were fixed, this camera would be unstoppable! They will sell a million units by christmas, and they already can't make them fast enough.


why don't just shift to 0.5 image position X/Y for RAW or pan/tilt in color page for ProRes to fix this as described many times in this thread until new firmware released? It also acts as very light OLPF filter as bonus.



Ah yes, you might have missed the part where I wrote that I filmed this in prores 422. It is not in raw and is totally baked in to the image. If i shift the image in any direction the crosshatching just turns to that particular direction.


I thought it was shot in 4.6K ProRes. If it was shot not in 4.6 or any other 1:1 sensor crop size this probably will be can't be fixed.
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Jonesy Jones

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Dec 14, 2016 3:00 am

Andrew Walldez wrote:
Jonesy Jones wrote:
Andrew Walldez wrote:This is clearly an issue. Imagine my guilt when I had to deliver this to a client of mine for filming a different part of the show. Needless to say, I was embarrassed. It is embarrassing. I am embarrassed. Maybe a regular person won't notice it, but that's all i can see when i watch it.


Could you point out specifically where the problem is, like timecode and part of the frame? I can't see it. What I see in the darks is something that looks like macro blocking or something. I don't perceive it as lines or crosshatch. It just looks like video artifacts to me. Definitely not something you'd expect to see in "cinema", but I'd of not guessed the UM46 was the camera and would have attributed the problem to Youtube compression.



While i could point it out in practically every frame, i won't go that far.
For fun here is the tie fighter first.
Image
Image

Probably the best example
Image
Image
Image
Image


Also some serious moire
Image

Here is a link to the album so you can view them in their proper resolution - http://imgur.com/a/OhLyQ


I'm really hoping there is a fix for this and the magenta corners in the next firmware update.I don't even care about more new features. I just wish for a list of fixes, Please Santa, all i want for christmas.... is a fix in firmware update. Imagine if all these things were fixed, this camera would be unstoppable! They will sell a million units by christmas, and they already can't make them fast enough.


After looking at those frames more closely in the video, I do see something a bit off, but nothing like what you are seeing on your end. That's weird right? Why are we seeing different things?
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