Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

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Earl R. Thurston

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Nov 03, 2016 5:10 pm

David Hessel wrote:Not sure if that is true either. On the only footage I have ever measured the grid structure was 6 x 6 pixels so I don't think shifting the image by half a pixel is going to correct for that.

That sounds like a shot that was scaled in-camera. Do you recall the settings? Could you provide a link or frame?

Just to be clear, the half-pixel shift trick is really meant for footage with the exact odd/even row and column debayering artifact, which in turn prevents the moiré side-effect from appearing downstream. It will NOT fix the moiré side effect if that's already present in the footage.
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Valentin Remy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Nov 03, 2016 7:11 pm

How long does it take to get the camera back ? I sent mine October 19, no news since then...
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Nov 03, 2016 7:20 pm

Last time I sent mine in it took less than 10 days. Then again, they didn't actually do anything, just sent me a new camera that had the same problem.
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David Hessel

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Nov 03, 2016 7:28 pm

Earl R. Thurston wrote:
David Hessel wrote:Not sure if that is true either. On the only footage I have ever measured the grid structure was 6 x 6 pixels so I don't think shifting the image by half a pixel is going to correct for that.

That sounds like a shot that was scaled in-camera. Do you recall the settings? Could you provide a link or frame?

Just to be clear, the half-pixel shift trick is really meant for footage with the exact odd/even row and column debayering artifact, which in turn prevents the moiré side-effect from appearing downstream. It will NOT fix the moiré side effect if that's already present in the footage.


I am not entirely sure anymore but it was one of the clips linked on the first page of this thread. Here is the thread that has the pattern that I measured.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51936#p301480
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Nov 03, 2016 7:37 pm

Valentin, for me it was two weeks from the day BMD received my camera until I received the new one. UK office.
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thomas bruegger

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Nov 03, 2016 8:09 pm

Valentin Remy wrote:How long does it take to get the camera back ? I sent mine October 19, no news since then...


For me it was about 10 days too, support constantly replied to my questions, the expirience was o.k.

Checked the new camera further and it is better than the one i had before, although there is still some strange shaped noise at 4.6k, its way less eminent as it was before. But i do think it has more FPN. Will do some more tests next week.

The serial Number of my old one startet with 321.... the new starts with 332... maybe they changed something.
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Valentin Remy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Nov 03, 2016 8:27 pm

Okay thanks guys :) They got it October 26, seems ok !
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Earl R. Thurston wrote:
Dmitry Shijan wrote:
Earl R. Thurston wrote:That will work with ProRes files as well as RAW.

Nope. I used ProRes footage from this thread, set to center with no resize in project settings.

Your screen shots show Resolve. I was talking about Adobe programs. It also looks like that shot may be UHD downscaled in-camera (can Phillip confirm)?

Nevertheless, here's how it can be cleaned up in After Effects:

UM46ISO800UHDInside_AE_Before.jpg


UM46ISO800UHDInside_AE_After.jpg


One more mystery puzzle here.
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Dustin Albert

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 3:40 am

Mine had the issue as well so i sent it in for RMA, should be there tomorrow. Interested to see what happens next and if they actually calibrate the sensor or just replace it. Hopefully no new issues pop up.

Will keep y'all posted.


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Steve Martin

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 8:50 am

Thats weird
Mine has the issue and BM UK said they werent taking returns for this issue.
Hmm
Did you have to push?
I have sent in my dng's and got no response
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James Alexander Barnett

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 1:47 pm

Steve Martin wrote:Thats weird
Mine has the issue and BM UK said they werent taking returns for this issue.
Hmm
Did you have to push?
I have sent in my dng's and got no response


Same here Steve, I have been emailing them have sent, PNG's, DNG's and screen casts and all they have said is they are investigating this behaviour and they will be in touch soon.

I'm pretty annoyed as I have some big jobs coming up and I'm only comfortable shooting 2k which is very limiting.

Why should certain customers get things sorted whilst we have to wait? I waited long enough for this bloody camera and now I have to use it in 2k or below.

Can't wait to get this camera sorted get my money's worth out of it and then it's bye bye Blackmagic for me.
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Valentin Remy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 2:44 pm

Still no news about mine since October 26 :/

I'm starting to miss it :D
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Dustin Albert

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 9:38 pm

Steve Martin wrote:Thats weird
Mine has the issue and BM UK said they werent taking returns for this issue.
Hmm
Did you have to push?
I have sent in my dng's and got no response


Nope, it took some days to get the response and form but no major issues. Just sent a couple DNGs with instructions and they approved the RMA.

That said I am in the US, so it may be easier here, not sure.


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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Nov 09, 2016 5:32 pm

I'm starting to get really pissed off. Haven't heard from them in a week. And when I heard from them a week ago they just asked me to send them what I already sent them a week prior to that. It's like they don't even read the emails you send them. It's been a year and a half and I'm still waiting to have a decent camera from them. I'm never buying from this company again. I wish they would just sent me a check for $5000 so I can go buy something else.

EXTREMELY FRUSTRATED BLACKMAGIC.
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Tony Rivera

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Nov 09, 2016 9:35 pm

Phillip Bergman wrote:Haven't heard from them in a week. And when I heard from them a week ago they just asked me to send them what I already sent them a week prior to that.


There was an issue with the email system that is currently being sorted out. The emails you've sent have been received and the CSR will be reaching out to you. Our apologies.
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Simon Schubert

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 6:50 am

@Toni Rivera

Could you maybe provide some clarification to us, on how it's possible that the multiple RMA's are handled in such different ways, with some units being fixed successfully, while others don't even get approved for RMA, although exhibiting the same faults?
:?:
It's hard to believe that the different support branches don't talk to each other, in Order to get the same level of knowledge about this issue...

respectfully
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Steve Martin

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 4:18 pm

I have now had my RMA accepted
Going to fill out forms and send camera in in about a weeks time when we have a shooting break
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Tony Rivera

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 7:32 pm

Simon Schubert wrote:Could you maybe provide some clarification to us, on how it's possible that the multiple RMA's are handled in such different ways, with some units being fixed successfully, while others don't even get approved for RMA, although exhibiting the same faults?...

While the RMAs may be booked for the same reason, not all cameras exhibit the same images therefore, each is on a case by case basis.
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Aaron Green

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 8:27 pm

I just upgraded to Premiere CC 2017 from CC 2015.3 and opened an old project where UHD cross hatching was blatantly obvious. For some reason it doesn't appear anymore. Not sure if it's how the files are being scaled or what.
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David Hessel

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 8:46 pm

Crosshatching is still there, 2017 probably just has a higher quality viewport scaling algorthym than 2015 did.
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 9:23 pm

Tony Rivera wrote:
Phillip Bergman wrote:Haven't heard from them in a week. And when I heard from them a week ago they just asked me to send them what I already sent them a week prior to that.


There was an issue with the email system that is currently being sorted out. The emails you've sent have been received and the CSR will be reaching out to you. Our apologies.


Thanks Tony. They reached out, and I'm sending my camera in for RMA now...
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 11:58 pm

David Hessel wrote:Crosshatching is still there, 2017 probably just has a higher quality viewport scaling algorthym than 2015 did.


David, can you use the technique you've been applying to other images earlier in the thread to check out this DNG from a shot taken with my 4.6K post-RMA?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1bnfGXKHqpceUtETmpOeWxxZVU
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Mitch Mommaerts

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Nov 12, 2016 12:33 am

Can someone guide me to where I can find out, in detail, how to test my camera for cross hatching? Thanks so much!


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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Nov 12, 2016 1:08 am

Mitch Mommaerts wrote:Can someone guide me to where I can find out, in detail, how to test my camera for cross hatching? Thanks so much!


Here is the original thread on the crosshatching issue from Gary Yost. Read through it from the first page where he explains the issue in great detail and just follow his method for documenting it:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50175&hilit=cross
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Mitch Mommaerts

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Nov 12, 2016 4:12 pm

Perfect thanks Jamie!


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James Alexander Barnett

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Nov 12, 2016 5:45 pm

Good news, I had an email from BM support UK and they have asked me to return my camera to improve the image quality.

Got loads of jobs on at the moment so not sure when I will be able to send it however I'm glad they have been in touch and I can start the process of getting it sorted.

Will keep you all updated with how it goes/outcome.
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jonathanmurphy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Nov 13, 2016 10:19 pm

So is this problem fixed or is it an ongoing issue with new cameras? I am about to sell my RED and purchase 2 ursa mini 4.6k cams and dont want something that has a checker'd image.
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Nov 13, 2016 10:42 pm

jonathanmurphy wrote:So is this problem fixed or is it an ongoing issue with new cameras? I am about to sell my RED and purchase 2 ursa mini 4.6k cams and dont want something that has a checker'd image.


It's anyone's guess whether BMD have fixed this issue and changed their factory calibration to eliminate it before shipping new units. They've haven't even acknowledged publicly that it is a widespread problem.

It seems that BMD is able to offer such low prices because they skimp on quality control and camera calibration. They have to save money somewhere, right?

A working 4.6K Ursa Mini is an absolutely amazing camera (and completely miraculous when you consider the price point), but make sure to plan to make up for the lack of quality control yourself by testing the units you receive thoroughly and then be prepared for the good chance that you will have to go through time consuming returns and/or RMA to get working cameras. In my case, my first Ursa Mini was shipped to me in April, but I had to go through a lengthy return drama and then didn't manage to get a properly functioning Ursa Mini until late September after the second one I received went through RMA for recalibration to fix multiple problems.

So, if you make the order, I would definitely hold onto that Red camera until you confirm that your new 4.6K Ursa Mini are problem free.
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jonathanmurphy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Nov 13, 2016 10:44 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
jonathanmurphy wrote:So is this problem fixed or is it an ongoing issue with new cameras? I am about to sell my RED and purchase 2 ursa mini 4.6k cams and dont want something that has a checker'd image.


It's anyone's guess whether BMD have fixed this issue and changed their factory calibration to eliminate it before shipping new units. They've haven't even acknowledged publicly that it is a widespread problem.

It seems that BMD is able to offer such low prices because they skimp on quality control and camera calibration. They have to save money somewhere, right?

A working 4.6K Ursa Mini is an absolutely amazing camera (and completely miraculous when you consider the price point), but make sure to plan to make up for the lack of quality control yourself by testing the units you receive thoroughly and then be prepared for the good chance that you will have to go through time consuming returns and/or RMA to get working cameras. In my case, my first Ursa Mini was shipped to me in April, but I had to go through a lengthy return drama and then didn't manage to get a properly functioning Ursa Mini until late September after the second one I received went through RMA for recalibration to fix multiple problems.

So, if you make the order, I would definitely hold onto that Red camera until you confirm that your new 4.6K Ursa Mini are problem free.



Very very good advice...
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Kyle Gordon

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 5:14 am

I'd happily pay $1,000 more for the camera if it came without these faults, including the magenta vignette that still isn't fully gone.
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James Alexander Barnett

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 9:43 am

jonathanmurphy wrote:So is this problem fixed or is it an ongoing issue with new cameras? I am about to sell my RED and purchase 2 ursa mini 4.6k cams and dont want something that has a checker'd image.


Who knows if its fixed BMD don't tell you anything.

I really feel like I am constantly moaning on here and I really don't want to, I am returning my camera for crosshatching and I'm sure that when its fixed I will be extremely happy with it, if I shoot at 2k which I have been doing the images have been truly amazing considering the cost of the body.

Here is where my frustration lies:

2X BMPCC's first one had a dead pixel (admittedly bought second hand)
3X Video Assist's (First two had loads of hot pixels, 3rd one was fine)
And now I'm sending my URSA Mini back for Crosshatching

I really want to love BMD cause what they offer for the money is hands down better than everyone else, however their communication with regards problems, the ridiculous shipping times in the UK after launch and the fact all my stuff I have from them has had problems makes it difficult to want to buy from them again.

:cry:
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James Alexander Barnett

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 9:44 am

jonathanmurphy wrote:So is this problem fixed or is it an ongoing issue with new cameras? I am about to sell my RED and purchase 2 ursa mini 4.6k cams and dont want something that has a checker'd image.


Who knows if its fixed BMD don't tell you anything.

I really feel like I am constantly moaning on here and I really don't want to, I am returning my camera for crosshatching and I'm sure that when its fixed I will be extremely happy with it, if I shoot at 2k which I have been doing the images have been truly amazing.

Here is where my frustration lies, I had:

2X BMPCC's first one had a dead pixel (admittedly bought second hand)
3X Video Assist's (First 2 had loads of hot pixels, 3rd one was fine)
And now I'm sending my URSA Mini back for Crosshatching

I really want to love BMD cause what they offer for the money is hands down better than everyone else, however their communication with regards problems, the ridiculous shipping times in the UK after launch and the fact all my stuff I have from them has had problems makes it difficult to want to buy from them again.

:cry:
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Simon Schubert

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 12:10 pm

Tony Rivera wrote:

While the RMAs may be booked for the same reason, not all cameras exhibit the same images therefore, each is on a case by case basis.


But the root of the problem discussed in this thread seems to be known by someone, somewhere, since some cams got fixed... in whatever way...
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Valentin Remy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 3:05 pm

Got my camera back. It's better, but it's still there (I think).

=> DNG is here https://we.tl/Sw4rtRhD85

Image

But now it's more like vertical lines than a grid, no ? Could be because of the FPN ?
Show up more in darker areas (we can see it better on the right).

Even in the email they said they "improved" the results, not "fixed".

EDIT: looks like it goes away after grading !

EDIT 2: now that I see my previous screenshots, it's way better indeed.

Before

Image

After

Image
Last edited by Valentin Remy on Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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jonathanmurphy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 3:22 pm

Valentin Remy wrote:Got my camera back. It's better, but it's still there (I think).

=> DNG is here https://we.tl/Sw4rtRhD85

Image

But now it's more like vertical lines than a grid, no ? Could be because of the FPN ?
Show up more in darker areas (we can see it better on the right).

Even in the email they said they "improved" the results, not "fixed".

EDIT: looks like it goes away after grading !



Does this go away possibly when the camera reaches a proper warm-up temp? For instance my red Dragon has some weird things in the image before the camera warms up
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Valentin Remy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 3:24 pm

Not sure, I did the test right after I turned my camera on !

But it's indeed way better now, I don't think I want to go through another RMA.
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jonathanmurphy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 3:27 pm

Valentin Remy wrote:Not sure, I did the test right after I turned my camera on !

But it's indeed way better now, I don't think I want to go through another RMA.



If you don't mind, when you get a chance turn on the camera and wait 3-5 min and then record and report back. Would love to know as I am thinking about selling my RED and buying 2 of these
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Valentin Remy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 3:32 pm

Sure, I'm free now so I'll do it right away.

EDIT: 5min warmup

Image
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Jonathan Murphy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 6:00 pm

Valentin Remy wrote:Sure, I'm free now so I'll do it right away.

EDIT: 5min warmup

Image


Hey thanks for doing that! I can't really tell because I'm on my phone but did that seem to get rid of it?


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Valentin Remy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 6:34 pm

Right sorry I didn't mentioned :p

It didn't make a difference.

But still, it's way better now, you notice it mainly in low light, and it's still quite weak (but it's there).

Also, I was at 4.6k! At 4K downsampled, it's completely gone.
Windowed 2k seemed rid of it as well.

I won't send it back to RMA, I'm satisfied now!
I guess future firmware upgrades will get rid of it completely.
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Earl R. Thurston

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 6:35 pm

Valentin Remy wrote:Got my camera back. It's better, but it's still there (I think).

Yes, the debayering problem is still present. The tell-tale area for me was the flap of the cardboard box.

A002_10310523_C001_000002_test_area.jpg
A002_10310523_C001_000002_test_area.jpg (86.09 KiB) Viewed 7707 times


I was able to introduce scaling moiré by resizing the image to 55%. Adding a BayerGreenSplit value in CornerFix clears up the debayering error and prevents the scaling moiré.

A002_10310523_C001_000002_crop.jpg
A002_10310523_C001_000002_crop.jpg (157.63 KiB) Viewed 7707 times
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Jonathan Murphy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 6:37 pm

Well that is good I suppose. Thanks for that! Wish it wasn't an issue though. Had a BMPC that had this and hated it


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Valentin Remy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 6:39 pm

It's weird, the grid is showing only by little spots!
Thanks for your clarification btw!

But now I don't think I'll send it back again, not sure of what to do... Waiting firmware updates or not.

Really loving the camera but come on, it's a mess.
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Deyan Parouchev

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 7:36 pm

Hi everyone, some of you guys report this problem (around 1'17 for exemple) on one of my videos here :


I am really confused, because I watch my rushes and everything is fine (my screen is a calibrated 4K DCI 10 bits, graphic card Nvidia Quadro K5200) In premiere everything is also nice at 100% and scaled preview, the final export HEVC and H264 10 bits is OK viewed on my 4K DCI monitor and also on my TV UHD OLED, so the only place where I see this strange behaviour is on youtube when rescaled (but not when I watch in full screen)...
Where is the problem actually ? I am not sure that the camera is the source of th issue ?
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Earl R. Thurston

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 9:05 pm

Deyan Parouchev wrote:Hi everyone, some of you guys report this problem (around 1'17 for exemple) on one of my videos...Where is the problem actually ? I am not sure that the camera is the source of the issue ?

The camera is indeed the source of the problem. Read back through my posts in this thread for a full explanation.

For the record, here's what the 2164p (4K) version of your footage looks like to me in YouTube:

Screen Shot 2016-11-14 at 12.50.31 PM.png
Screen Shot 2016-11-14 at 12.50.31 PM.png (374.29 KiB) Viewed 7665 times


(I recommend right-clicking this image and viewing it by itself at 1:1 to see the moiré better.)

This example should underscore the risk people are taking when they say, "my camera is fine because I don't see the problem". Other people may see the problem even if you're not seeing it -- it all depends on how the footage is scaled.

And -- I can't stress this enough -- it is not an error in the scaling routine, because the same applications have no problem scaling properly debayered images.

The true source of the problem is a debayering imbalance caused by the camera at the odd/even pixel level which creates a potential for moiré where there shouldn't be any.
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Deyan Parouchev

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 9:11 pm

Ok, is there someone here which send to BM his camera and get the camera back clean of this issue ?
Is there any clean camera out ? Is it possible to correct with a future firmware ?
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 10:09 pm

Deyan Parouchev wrote:Ok, is there someone here which send to BM his camera and get the camera back clean of this issue ?
Is there any clean camera out ? Is it possible to correct with a future firmware ?


I believe Eli Hershko and Jamie LeJeune have both had their cameras successfully fixed of this problem by BMD.
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Jonathan Murphy

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 10:18 pm

So should i buy this camera or not? Is this widespread or just with certain cameras? Can an employee at BM respond to this thread please?


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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 11:55 pm

Jonathan Murphy wrote:So should i buy this camera or not? Is this widespread or just with certain cameras? Can an employee at BM respond to this thread please?


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Such random RMA makes me sad panda. But shifting image position by setting X Y position to 0.5 to remove Cross Hatching still works very well. In Resolve this works only with RAW footage, but in Adobe apps it works with both ProRes and RAW footage.
Screen-Shot-2016-11-01-at-10.07.35-AM.jpg
Screen-Shot-2016-11-01-at-10.07.35-AM.jpg (25.42 KiB) Viewed 7597 times
All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/
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Jonesy Jones

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Nov 15, 2016 2:53 am

Please BM, would love to hear from you.
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