Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

Claudio Monni

  • Posts: 26
  • Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 9:51 am
  • Location: Italy

Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostThu Nov 03, 2016 8:21 pm

Hi to everyone, I need an advice. I wish to purchase one of these two camera but I'm quite confused. I usually shoot different kinds of material: documentary (may be drone too in the future), advertising (interiors for hotels and b&b). Blackmagic website and lots users online are focused on Pocket camera as the right camera choice, relegating the Micro one to action camera only.
The only reason why I would have preferred the Pocket one is the display on camera but I've tried it and I've realized is useless because of its size, reflections and other things so it needs an external display as the Micro. Micro camera instead has two serious advantages like remote bus and 60 fps. I guess the others tech specs are basically the same.
It is quite clear which will be my decision, but I need some of your precious advices because of your experiences on them in order to put some other pro and cons for both camera.

Thank you in advance.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7572
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 2:30 am

Since no one has answered this request, and since I don't have either camera, and given you're not adverse to a rig where appropriate, I'd go with the BMMCC over the BMPCC. If however your documentary work requires a stealth camera (a camera that people, police, and security guards will assume is a stills camera), then the BMPCC is a winner.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 2:58 am

I have,had both cameras, started out with one of the first Pocket Cameras, and got a Micro Cinema camera when it was released. Thanks Rick for being this question up from the depths! So based in my experience:

Both cameras are good, and share the same sensor. That said, the Micro has a newer processor, and a faster sensor readout than the Pocket, so Rolling Shutter artifacts are reduced, not so obvious. Also, as you pointed out, the Micro also has 60pfs available, the Pocket maxes out at 30fps.

The screen on the Pocket camera is next to useless outdoors, hard to see indoors, and not very good for trying to focus a manual lens. The Pocket has a smaller (Nikon EN) battery, harder to replace, as is the SD card slot, both are accessed from the bottom of the camera. But it does look like a pint and shoot, and fitted with a small lens like the Panasonic/Leica 15mm you can use the Pocket's auto focus button to get the focus, and just point the camera at the action. However, the Pocket has a Micro HDMI connection, which is very delicate, and if you use a EavF, you are going to need a cage, the smaller being the Wooden Camera half cage, with excellent HDMI and power connector (also very small) cable locks to prevent damage.

The Micro lacks the "Push to Focus" button, so an external monitor or EVF, like the original Zacuto EVF (small and not too obvious). But the Micor has its SD card access from the side, and a larger Canon Battery mount on the back, for quick replacement. It also has a full size HDMI D connector for the monitor/EVF, no cable locks required. A small cage like the Wooden Camera Micro cage helps to attach the monitor or EVF, and a grip. I rigged my Micro Camera up like an Super 8 Bolex with a grip under the camera, and EVF in top, this gives three points of support, your had under the camera on the grip, the other hand on the lens to focus, and your eye/head on the EVF. So you still look a little,like a point and shoot home movie camera.

After using both for a while, I sold the Pocket camera and got a Micro Studio camera for 4K shooting, using same accessories from the Micro Cinema camera. Here is my Micro Cinema camera with a Veydra Mini Prime (16mm) lens (a smaller lens like the Panny 15mm will make the camera less "pro" looking):

IMG_1292.JPG
BMMCC Camera Rig
IMG_1292.JPG (825.62 KiB) Viewed 6841 times

Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

shanepeters@bellsouth.net

  • Posts: 413
  • Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:37 pm

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 3:02 am

I have not used the micro, but have owned a pocket for many years. What I will tell you about it is if you plan to use the HDMI port to go to another monitor...you need to know it is poorly constructed and very weak. Even though the port is on the camera, it will at some point break free of the board and you will have a NON-HDMI camera at that point. BM will not stand behind this weak design flaw, and you will be forced to replace it with something else.

Be aware that BM likes to rush products to market without ample field testing. We become the testers, and when the product fails, it is up to us to just replace it. While they offer some warranty, the reality is that after that short period is done, and you have used your camera enough, things will fail you. The HDMI and the Power tap on the pocket are notorious for failure.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 3:13 am

While they can be prone to failure, especially when used without some type of cable lock, to eliminate play between the the camera connection and csble. But, if you use a cage with a good cable locking/management system, then the plugs, if used with care, will not fail.

I had one of the original Pocket cameras, mounted it in the Wooden Camera Pocket cage on day two, got the cable locks,for both power and the micro HDMI, which included pig tale connectors, adapting the small connections to full size HDMI D and 2.5mm power plug. Issue solved, never had an issue in almost three years of use.

But as you pointed out, it is a weak spot in the Pocket camera, and it is a lot more fragile than the Micro cameras.
DS
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

shanepeters@bellsouth.net

  • Posts: 413
  • Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:37 pm

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 3:46 am

Had a cage and cable lock. The repeated plugging in and out of the cable into the port between packing and unpacking the camera finally did it in. Plugged it in recently and the port popped right off, INTO the camera body. Now I have to open the camera up to get the loose port out so it does not short the board. My power port has been acting up as well. I am going to chalk it up to poor quality in construction and 2 years of using it....which is far shorter of a time span than I expected.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 4:00 am

Yes Shane, I know what you mean. I put the pigtale adapter cables on the camera, locked the, in with the cable,lock system, and left them there for the most part. I think I only removed them 20 or so times in total, to avoid your issue.

Another problematic area on the Pocket, is the LCD screen, when it fails, and sooner or later it will, you can not access the camera's menu system to make any changes, and are "stuck" in its last setup. The Pocket does not output the menu overlays out the HDMI, whereas, the Micro camera does, so if a monitor failure happens, just replace the monitor, and you are back in service, ready to go. The modular approach of the Micro appeals to me, as you can "rig" it to fit the shooting situation quite easily.

Sorry for your issues with your Pocket camera.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline
User avatar

Claudio Monni

  • Posts: 26
  • Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 9:51 am
  • Location: Italy

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 8:39 am

Thanks you all so far, your experiences are really important to me.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7572
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 5:58 pm

Regarding Shane's comment about packing and unpacking: When I'm travelling by car with the URSA Mini 4.6K camera, I leave the camera and all accessories fully assembled and resting on my open backpack on the car seat secured by a seatbelt. Perhaps not ideal, but it does mean I am hardly ever screwing and unscrewing or inserting and extracting camera or audio connectors. Of course the V-lock battery is frequently mounted and unmounted. The idea is to keep all these connections in top condition, minimal wear. The only thing I have that shows wear is the Sony VCT-14 plate that gets a lot of workout and looks it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

Stu Aitken

  • Posts: 119
  • Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 6:30 pm

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 6:52 pm

I think there are quite a few of us who have bought the micro over the pocket but with the express intention of turning it into a more usable camera with some rigging and so on

as such you do have to account for some extra gear in the cost over the pocket but its my belief the end result is worth it if you do it right

eg I got a smallHD 502 to go with mine (the cheaper 501 would have worked fine as well) which is WAY better than the pockets screen but more than the price of the camera itself
Offline
User avatar

Tobias Róth

  • Posts: 18
  • Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:43 pm
  • Location: Cologne

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostTue Nov 08, 2016 9:53 pm

Hi Claudio,

if the stealth factor is important to your documentary work the Pocket has some real advantage. Maybe the only advantage over the Micro. You just can't rig the Micro to look as innocent as a point and shoot camera.

This is a documentary for French/German television that was shot entirely on the pocket without any rigging. It was about getting close to people without getting too much attention:
https://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Interviews/Schaetze-Suedostasiens----mit-der-Blackmagic-Pocket-ins-ARTE-Programm--alles-.html
Sorry, it's German. Google translate will help.

If your most work is for advertisement, forget this argument. You will be happier with the Micro.
www.shah-stlz.tumblr.com
Offline
User avatar

Claudio Monni

  • Posts: 26
  • Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 9:51 am
  • Location: Italy

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostThu Nov 10, 2016 8:30 am

Thank you Tobias Róth, your contribute is very appreciate and that is one very good point pro Pocket. Usually I don't shoot footage which need to be stealth but that situations you showed in your link shows me how quick Micro can be in a sudden situation: no rig, no other peripherals, just you, camera and subject.
Offline
User avatar

Claudio Monni

  • Posts: 26
  • Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 9:51 am
  • Location: Italy

iPhone/iPad as monitor for Micro camera

PostThu Nov 10, 2016 8:33 am

I've tried to search in the forum if is a way to use a device such an iPhone or iPad (mini) as a wireless/bluetooth peripheral monitor. Is it possible? It could be a great solution for saving money In the beginning and a spare part for the next future.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostThu Nov 10, 2016 6:13 pm

The iPhone as a remote or monitor is a non-starter, as you would need a WiFi or BlueTooth connection between camera and iPhone, plus an OIS software program to setup the control of the camera and display the image. This would require additional external equipment (WiFi/BT transmitter with HDMI connection to camera, which would give the display, but not any control.

Cameras that have iOS remote capability, have this feature built in the camera, to a.low display/control from a iOS device. A HDMI cable connection to an external monitor like the SmallHD 501 (same size as a iPhone 5/6 series) will give you the display. You could go wireless with a small transmitter on the camera and receiver on the 501.

Also, a Micro Cinema camera can be rigged to get same type of shots as Roth showed in his post, spusing a small monitor like the 501, or a 3/4 inch monitor (Ikan has a new 3.5 inch monitor). I use the 501 mounted directly on top the camera via a pivoting shoe mount, very compact, and allows you to change the viewing angle. This setup using small MFT lenses is not much larger than the Pocket (just a different shape, with a little thicker/depth with rear mounted battery.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline
User avatar

Tobias Róth

  • Posts: 18
  • Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:43 pm
  • Location: Cologne

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 11:23 am

Denny Smith wrote:...
Also, a Micro Cinema camera can be rigged to get same type of shots as Roth showed in his post, spusing a small monitor like the 501, or a 3/4 inch monitor (Ikan has a new 3.5 inch monitor). I use the 501 mounted directly on top the camera via a pivoting shoe mount, very compact, and allows you to change the viewing angle. This setup using small MFT lenses is not much larger than the Pocket (just a different shape, with a little thicker/depth with rear mounted battery.
Cheers


I've searched a lot for smallest possible Micro rigs. But the shape makes them a lot more obvious as a film camera. Form factor, cables etc. That's why I stick to the pocket.
Do you have some examples to show? Would be interesting to see.
www.shah-stlz.tumblr.com
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 5:44 pm

Not off hand Roth, btw love your avitar photo, classy. But, I will set up a couple of examples with the Cineroid as a 3.5-inch monitor (the Ikan is thinner, like the SmallHD 501-502 form factor), and a 501, with the small Panny Leica lenses. I have the Wooden Camera cage on mine, which is not much larger than the Micro camera itself. They also make a nice minimal cage for the Pocket camera with excellent cable locks, keeping the formfactor small. The Micro has full size connectors, so cable locks are not necessary, if you use a locking HDMI cable.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Benjamin de Menil

  • Posts: 182
  • Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:04 pm

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostSat Nov 12, 2016 11:36 am

I have the micro cinema and have only played briefly with the pocket. To my eye, the micro had a better image and markedly less rolling shutter and moire. Im not sure, but my impression is that it also performs better in low light and in high dynamic range. Both are situations you'll run into often in documentary work.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostSat Nov 12, 2016 5:09 pm

Benjamin, I had the same results, when the Micro Cinema camera first came out, and compared it to my Pocket camera. While both cameras have the same basic sensor, the Micro has a few tweaks and an upgraded video processor, which results in the improvements to the image IQ. Also the Micro Cinema has a sensor readout time (the time it takes to dump the image to the processor and reload the next one) of 13.3ms; while the Pocket camera is 17.74ms, which even bests the UM 4.6 except when it is in the 2160 UHD or 1080p HD window. The quicker readout times, reduce rolling shutter issues and improved moire als well.

Interestingly, the Micro Studio, which came out first, has the fastest sensor readout times, at 9.9ms, which when compared to,the Pocket, made the MS look like it almost had a Global Shutter, I even asked BM about this, but they confirmed it was a very fast RS. The faster the image scan/readout on a RS, the cleaner the image and closer it gets to working like a GS.

After comparing the two cameras, I decided the two Micros would take care of my shooting requirements, and sold my "first run" Pocket camera. If the Pocket had a higher res screen I could have seen better with the Zacuto loupe VF, I would have probably considered keeps it too. But as it was, I had to use an external monitor/EVF with it anyway, so the point and shoot camera look advantages were lost anyway.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 1918
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostMon Nov 14, 2016 8:38 am

I second the faster RS, but I see no difference in moiré.
Offline

Martin Kuipers

  • Posts: 2
  • Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:16 pm

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostTue Nov 14, 2017 2:21 pm

Denny Smith wrote: The Micro lacks the "Push to Focus" button, so an external monitor or EVF, like the original Zacuto EVF (small and not too obvious).
IMG_1292.JPG



I love this setup! However, the original Zacuto EVF doesn't accept a 60P / 50P signal? How do you prevent a blackout when recording in that framerate?
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostThu Nov 16, 2017 6:49 am

You don’t. The original Zacuto EVF does not support frame rates above 1080p30. So I switched to a Cineroid new EVF which does. Also the new Small HD Focus supports the faster frame rates.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Anatoly Mashanov

  • Posts: 444
  • Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:36 am
  • Location: Russia

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostThu Nov 16, 2017 12:24 pm

In condition that BMMCC has a repairable HDMI connector I'd prefer BMMCC (I have no idea whether it's so but for instance in many notebooks the power connector is attached to the main board with some cable so that the broken connector could be easily replaced).

If not I'd prefer Micro Studio Camera 4K with external recorder (since it's SDI is more robust mechanically), BMPCC, BMPC4K or Ursa Mini depending on needed resolution and depth of pockets.
Offline

Luca Di Gioacchino

  • Posts: 83
  • Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:23 pm
  • Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostThu Nov 16, 2017 1:15 pm

Check out this Kickstarter campaign from LukiLink. They're offering a product that can turn your phone into a camera monitor.
Offline

Luca Di Gioacchino

  • Posts: 83
  • Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:23 pm
  • Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostThu Nov 16, 2017 1:15 pm

Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 375
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostFri Nov 17, 2017 2:11 pm

One is more outdated than the other.

Anyway, try a little camera hood and anti reflection anti glare screen protector on the pocket if it is safe. I've seen wide color gamut screen protectors for iPhones (don't know if they are anti reflective anti glare though). There was a chemical in the late 80's or 90's you could put on your glasses which would make them very see through, but it was taken off the market after some concern I heard.

I think it was a mistake they didn't include sun gaurds handgrip controls and other accessories for the pocket (using a clamp mechanism they could fit on a micro or 3rd party camera) and a tiltable screen (two axis) fur this issue. We were just so glad to get such a novel little gadget (though fullhdp50 and 2.5k and M4/3rds would have been great too).

Seriously, the micro was a missed opportunity. There should have been a control view screen attachment and manual control grips and 4k. The studio should have been more like the micro with 4kp50/60. The world has zoomed past the sensor tech. If those little Sony handycams this year did not have such horrible data rates, control etc, I would gladly go for them based on the images. Even the RXO, is 50mb/s flullhd, the 4k is HDMI output (it doesn't compete with their higher end cameras much). A totaly wasted opportunity, as cheaper action Cameras can give much better results in 4k, but without the 1 inch sensor. For the price, I 200% would want a 4kp50 mode with 200mb/s+ (an upper ambarella chip could probably handle that).

Here's to an update getting 8kp24/25/30/50 next year in the studio line at least, and the same sensor in the micro line even if it only does upto 4kp60 and higher stills. Do they control their sensors or not?
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostFri Nov 17, 2017 5:54 pm

I do not think you are going to see 8K next year! BM has not even found a suitable 4K sensor for a new Pocket Camera, let alone a 8K. Also, at the data rates these cameras use, the higher the frame rate, the more heat is generated, requiring a cooling system. BM added a fan to the Micro camera’s to get the frame rates they have. I would rather see an improvement in overall image quality, color depth, etc than an increase in resolution beyond 4K. Most small cameras are not even full 4K yet.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Ryan Payne

  • Posts: 57
  • Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:48 am

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostFri Nov 17, 2017 11:36 pm

BMD has got a real hold on budget cameras punching close to or in some cases above cinema quality and they should nail it even further.

Whether you like RED or not they've created an image and while cinema shouldn't be about marketing image it is in many ways especially when it comes to making money. The ursa line fills the role of traditional form factor at a great price, 50k+ for an Alexa or 6k for an ursa. Next step is to continue this and bring on the RED model. A simple 4.6k sensor in a box at a great budget price, then add on what you want or do not want. Add proffesional connections, olpf, lens mount, ssd or cfast or sd card, monitors, handles. Basically give off a RED appearance while providing an amazing image at a budget price.

People get jobs because their camera appears professional, sadly that's a fact because if it looks too complicated then people are more than willing to have you sort it out. If it appears as simple as grabbing their own dslr then they think, well I could do that, even if they couldn't. So I'm talking about just making money, the RED model would do really well. The key is to get the prices right and offer everything you could need for it through BM, have it plug together and just work, thats another big pull to the RED ecosystem.

To stay in the budget category of pricing I think 8k is still a long way off for BMD especially since they do not manufacture their own sensor, it becomes much harder.

The Micro brings this to a degree but also brings the sometimes fun DIY rigging but also sometimes tedious having things not quite go together as you wished. The price of the camera can get quite high if you waste money on the incorrect parts not to mention if you wish to use the extremely expensive metabones to get a reasonable crop. Now I do have the EF metabones because it does effect every single lens you put on it but it is quite expensive being 600 to a 1000 dollar body.

Having everything come from BMD, everything be under the same warranty etc, everything designed to work together just makes it easier for the user.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostSat Nov 18, 2017 5:43 am

Good point Ryan. Except, for what the Metabones Speed Booster is, it is quite reasonable priced. The first attempt at a MFT to EF smart adapter without optics was more than $1K.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 375
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostSat Nov 18, 2017 9:46 am

Denny and Ryan. 8k, was hopeful. As if they introduce 8k in a ursa product, they will have a sensor that could be economically reused in a POV camera head at less cost per unit from a 10x + higher run. It's only a hope. Now such a head doesn't do recording, so has modest heat. That is why I did not say 8k video on a micro/pocket. Modern sensor technology might be able to do this lower energy, but that sensor technology isn't available to Fairchild (was it?) as far as I know. In the recording cameras I'm only talking about 4k, with 8k stills.

If you look at the 8k sensor in the old Nokia phone, which probably would give the one in the mini 4k a run for it's money. It ran 8k pixels and down sampled to 2k video, using the additional resolution for digital zoom (and I assume higher pixel quality). It didn't over heat or require a fan. I'm talking about a similar thing here. A lot of technological water has gone under the bridge since the first BMCC and pocket. I expect the new sensor to be way better, as BM paid for the rights to the 4.6k technology, I expect they will expand upon that and use it more widely.

Please have a look at the many cheap 4k M4/3rds cameras? Also, look up the cell phone sized, and prosumer size, sensors, which support 6k in the entire years. What they give you The the low end of the market, and what they "can" give you, are two different things, and don't take any companies product marketing word for that.

The reality is, that the red phone may well blow it all away for less than.the price of a mini 4k. The patents indicated 6k. But the delays make me think the next sensor iteration is early and 8k might be possible What is everybody going to do?

BM and Red can do all these things, because there is such markups in the market, they can afford to offer low volume cameras at prices low enough to be considered against the marked up consumer cameras. But remember, BM put in so many millions to secure their sensor manufactures support. I think we are only seen the start of that, and a helium level sensor might be possible this year. Which I'm 100% happy with, because that maps close to the level of full scene human vision. Red might progressively go to 10-20k for interpolation/debayering purposes, starting next year, but 4k with 8k stills is fine for me. Well actually, if I wanted to do stills at 8k, high frame rate to pull stills from is better. But I'm content.

Now, can we get a video assist that has full camera control of a studio head, levels and lens please? With 4x4k small video sensors inbuilt for fun (or one 8k with 4 lens multiview)? Next year might be glorious.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostSat Nov 18, 2017 6:00 pm

I do not want to get into a debate on the Wayne, but the 4 and 8 K sensors used in still ca eras (MFT) 1-inch point and shoots, while very good in their native application, do not compare to the image quality (which is more than just pixel resolution, 4K vs 8K, nor the science BM has produced with their sensors.

Yes small cameras you mentioned and the Nikon 1 Ver 1/3 could capture 4K bursts at 60fps for about one and half seconds, which could be but into a timeline to get a 4K Video. But this is comparing apples to oranges. BM has already stated earlier in the year, they have not found a suitable small 4K capable sensor that matches the IQ of their existing 2K sensor in the Pocket/Micro Camera. For 4K, the. I do Studio does a very nice job, in controlled good lighting, and can produce as good looking images as the Ursa Mini 4K, but with slightly less fine detail, due to the smaller sensor. In small sensors, this is where higher resolution 2K vs 4K or even 8K has an advantage, it allows greater fine detail, but at the cost of less light sensitivity. Bigger S35or larger sensors have the advantage of producing finer detail,at a give rest,union and are more light sensitive, thus their popularity today.

But I agree, hopefully some day soon, the technology will catch up,and we might have higher resolution (8K)sensors in the Micro/Pocket Camera size package, perhaps like the Micro Sudio, just a Camera head, with the monitor/recording package separate, like the current Micro Stuido/VA combo. And yes, having full control of,the camera head from the VA side would be grand!

The new Micro firmware update looks like a step,in that direction, adding Raw to the Micro Studio.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 375
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostMon Nov 20, 2017 12:15 pm

Denny Smith wrote:I do not want to get into a debate on


BM hasn't put anything into the image sensors it uses except the 4.6k which it paid for :idea: , as far as I know. The non 4.6k sensors are these days much near the level of the cheap m43. Don't confuse the rubbish picture quality they give you on consumer setups with what the sensors and systems are capable of. As you can see from the hacks of gh3/4/5 cameras, there is more than the consumer quality presets we get given. These hacks don't go down into the sorts of things they can do either.

As for 8k video sensors, basically, it has been held back. The Nokia phone senor was an earlier example. But 8k is held back for something to market in future, when it's cheaper to produce (plus Sony has a much higher resolution holographic sensor under development). So, we are at the 6k sensor thing in consumer parts at the moment. 8k video, unless somebody like BM with their sensor partner, might not even get 8k consumer next year. I'm saying, this 8k thing, is if somebody, like BM, steps out. For BM, 8k is good for stills and produces better 4k video. It is not irrational to use it. The claimed 4.6k sensor quality was basically a bit like the dragon level. It is possible we will see helium level next year, or 4.6k+ level in 8k.

The Nikon 1. Again, don't confuse the camera with the capability. This earlier micron sensor was 4kp60 video capable, the camera simply was not designed to record it continuously, or output it to be recorded by an interface, like an external disk interface.

BM simply is choosing from the best sensors available to them at a descent deal. Not everybody wants to see their consumer sensors going into professional products instead of their professional versions. (And other market complications). Not even Red Helium has the most advanced performance available in every feature. For instance. Let's say that the native dynamic range of a number of these consumer sensors has been upto 12 stops for years (warning signal, his come it hasn't advanced to 14+stops). But if it has her video, that is another 2-4 usable stops (2 quality). That gives you 14-16 usable stops. But I've seen old sensors with 27stops+ usable dynamic range.

The term IQ is spin. It's the sensor technical performance characteristics that make up a good image that are important.

Thanks for agreeing with the VA stuff and a few other things Denny. Hopefully we will see progress. If only we could buy a small head and have the VA control it. I could get a mobile phone sensor module, and stick it on front of the 4k VA, wouldn't that be fun. If only we could stream raw over HDMI to it to record, that would produce a descent frame rate or multiple sensor 3D. But atlas, the VA is one of the cheapest recorders, not one of the best with onboard software to control cameras and modules. (Hopefully one day :)
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 375
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostMon Nov 20, 2017 12:29 pm

Here. Check out this rubbish footage I see getting posted around, and compare that to a GoPro:



You wouldn't think an action camera with a small 2015 Sony sensor could do that. Most of the time we see washed out skies, blown out flattened colours etc. This thing is not even running the full performance its hardware could. There used to be a cinema camera using a small s8mm like sensor years ago. Imagine how much better this mediocre image could be if it had been recorded full bit depth raw and graded. So, things are not as the camera makers would like us to believe.

Check out this 8k x 8k stereo vision using these cameras.

https://www.yitechnology.com/yi-halo-vr-camera
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostMon Nov 20, 2017 5:30 pm

If you want control of the Micro Camera head at the VA, put one of the SBus controllers (from Kim or a Phil) on top the VA and you have got it. The New OneLittle Goat Lite Remote would do the trick.
Cheers.
Last edited by Denny Smith on Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Howard Roll

  • Posts: 140
  • Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:50 am

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostMon Nov 20, 2017 10:07 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:I do not want to get into a debate on


The Nikon 1. Again, don't confuse the camera with the capability. This earlier micron sensor was 4kp60 video capable, the camera simply was not designed to record it continuously, or output it to be recorded by an interface, like an external disk interface.


The Nikon 1 J2 and the Micro Studio actually have the same sensor and as of last week you can record the raw stream, they've always supported sync for 3d or 360. What's the problem again?
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 375
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 8:15 am

Hey, thanks for that Denny.
I really meant for controling pov cameras like the studio, and standard lens controls (they do exist everybody),
so the VA gives you the onscreen camera GUI seperate from the recording. If there is a good version of the micro in 4k in future though, it would be useful.
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 375
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 8:25 am

Howard Roll wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:I do not want to get into a debate on


The Nikon 1. Again, don't confuse the camera with the capability. This earlier micron sensor was 4kp60 video capable, the camera simply was not designed to record it continuously, or output it to be recorded by an interface, like an external disk interface.


The Nikon 1 J2 and the Micro Studio actually have the same sensor and as of last week you can record the raw stream, they've always supported sync for 3d or 360. What's the problem again?


I thought the studio used the same sensor as the 4k mini? That sensor is definitely higher frame rate. In the Nikon 1 day, it was ok.

The new larger Sony consumer sensors are nice today, it is just a shame we won't see it in a lower end cinema cameras, rather than the recent handycam etc. I'm impressed by their image rendering.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostWed Nov 22, 2017 2:21 am

The a BM Studio camera’s uses a Super 16 ( a 1-inch sensor), including the Micro Studio. The original HD Studio camera used the Pocket camera’s S16 sensor. The Productin Camera Ver2 and the Ursa Mini share the same sensor, which is larger than a MFT sensor, but not a full S35, it sits between this and the Academy Standsrd 35mm format size. So the Mini 4K is almost twice the size of the Micro camera’s 4K S16 sensor.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 375
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostWed Nov 22, 2017 3:05 am

I'm a bit confused Denny. I can't quiet follow what you wrote.

So what did the original micro and original 4k studio use? And what does the latest versions use? And is the 4k mini still using the same sensor as originally?

It's a bit confusing, the micron sensor decision changed name, had a cross licensing intellectual property agreement with Sony, and change ownership at least once more being absorbed under another name the last I heard. And I suspect somewhere along the line, it is where one of BM biggest rivals were getting sensors done. So, I don't know if it happened to land up in one of the companies that sells to BM. It's good news, because the higher frame rate readout micron developed, has low heat production (and Micron were using hdr video, and the old pocket micron sensor camera I had, had such nice video rendering).
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostWed Nov 22, 2017 6:29 am

Thanks Wayne, corrected my previous post, IPad typing issues. The Micro Cinema has the same Super 16 sensor as the Pocket camera. The Micro Studio has a 1-inch sensor (shared with the Nikon 1 V2/J2) with an effective pixel size that is slightly larger than the Pocket S16 sensor, but still close to what the original S16 film camera gate size was (Pocket Camera sensor is between camera gate and the S16 projected date size).

The Mini 4K Camera is closer to a APS/C size sensor and is the same sensor used by the BM Production (the Ver1 Production Camera sensor is the same sensor used in the original Ver1 Ursa, which was also updated to the Ver2 sensor). The Ursa Mini 4K came out after the release of the Ver2 4K sensor, and uses the Ver 2 4K sensor also. This can all be very confusing, hope it is clear as “mud” now. :roll:

The bottom line is the Studio camera’s are basically 1-inch S16 sensors, while the Ursa, Ursa Mini 4K are the larger APS/C size sensor.
Cheers.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 375
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostWed Nov 22, 2017 1:21 pm

Not at the moment too, my mind is tied. But I see I confused a few things (like my memory of the Nikon 1's sensor). Makes you wonder, if they had access, why they didn't use it for a 4k handheld camera while it was still good (and just have the 4.6k mini).

I looked at the micro studio page again. Was it like that when it was released? So, you can get some camera controls through the VA but not lens by the looks of it. 11 stops is definitely old now. But, as this is a micron sensor tech, does it have hdr video?

It seems people say the mini 4k sensor is from cmosis, at least the ursa. I hear they have a lot more technology they can use on custom designs, good stuff I imagine. The latter version of the sensor has a pseudo 15 stop Lattitude mode (hdr). So is the mini 4k using this chip and the feature?

Here is the 15 stop mode listed on the new version of the sensor:
https://www.apertus.org/axiom-beta-imagesensors


Here is write up and test pattern sample of the new version of the sensor (in German):
https://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Bl ... labor.html

Here is their 2016 8k chip:
https://www.cinema5d.com/cmosis-8k-full ... he-market/

Thanks again Denny.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:49 am, edited 5 times in total.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 7092
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostWed Nov 22, 2017 9:01 pm

No, Not that I am aware of. Camera head and lens control is available on the Studio Cameras via the ATEM or Arduino Shield set up, or SBus. The VA does not offer any direct camera control on the Studio or Micro camera’s, would be grand if it did. My solution, was to get the OneLittle Goat Lite remote, which controls the Micro Camera head, and put it in the monitor, or camera side mount position, facing the back of course.

The early technical write up did have a misleading comment about using the VA to set the camera settings, but what the copy wittier was trying to say the camera menus can be displayed on the VA, so you can see the changes whilst using the camera buttons (tpusing the camera buttons was left off, but later correctrd).
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 375
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: Micro cinema camera VS Pocket cinema camera

PostThu Nov 23, 2017 7:45 am

According to the studio's product page it does have camera controls.

I'm looking into the sensor, it is likely not the same model as the Nikon 1, as that uses patented nikon auto focus technology. But one of the similar 2012 sensors.

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com ... r.html?m=1

The sensor and the 1/2.3 18mp 60fps:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/20 ... goes-mains

Here is the dual gain modes for normal and low light (down the end):
https://www.engadget.com/2012/09/23/apt ... for-nikon/

This is maybe one, it does 60fps full frame 10mp. Even this 18mp, small 1/2.3 action camera sized sensor does 60fps at 18mp. Cheap low powered cameras will probably be drawing fullfranes for videos and downsizing to fhd and 4k video. It is not frame rate, it is the technology you use for the sensor and processing that generates heat, I tell people. I just remembered I was supposed to post in another thread about cheap ways to do low run sensors and ASIC chips in house using stamp based technologies etc. Red has its own ovens even, which is probably a more expensive setup.

I was reading somewhere, there was an extra capacitor used in some of these chips to give better dr and low light. Maybe that is where Sony got from. However, I haven't accessed a data sheet for the studio's sensor in order to find out if it has a hdr video mode. But I've noticed strange effects giving abnormal skin tones levels in the past on various cameras, that might get from something like this, where the skin tones contrast is broadened.

I'm updating the previous post, more about the sensors on the cameras. Interesting stuff as there is a 15 stop mode that is supposed to be on the latest version of the sensor the mini 4k uses.

Just came across this again. The newer 14mp 80fps Aptina sensor (was Micron division) with about 14 stops in 2013, suitable for cinema cameras, and used on the Sony RX100:

"AR1411HS, IN THE 1-INCH FORMAT.

Previously incorporated exclusively in Nikon’s mirrorless models and Sony’s RX100"

https://mcpactions.com/2013/04/18/aptin ... ch-sensor/

http://cinescopophilia.com/aptina-14mp- ... -at-1080p/

That would have been good for a studio or pocket.

You'll notice, two different dynamic range counts being quite sometimes. I don't exact know why, as they don't seem to be different enough to represent a big use of hdr:

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com ... k.html?m=1

Return to Cinematography

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: John Richard, Ola Harström and 13 guests