Ergonomics - handheld considerations

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Lorka

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Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:06 am

Hi all,

I'm wondering if John or anyone who's had a chance to use the BMC could chime in on the best arrangements for handheld. On a correctly balanced rig with the camera above your shoulder and an external monitor/EVF to your eye how difficult is it to adjust settings? Say you're shooting non-raw and you need quick access to ISO/WB, can this be controlled without putting the rig down to see the camera's screen?

Couple of other related questions:

What GUI elements feed to SDI? Are these configurable?

Can the camera screen be disabled during SDI feed? (So people can't see what you're seeing over your shoulder/battery life optimization)

Thanks!
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John Brawley

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:57 am

I've used the camera naked with a lens up to 50mm before you start to see a bit of flutter with the rolling shutter.

When they get around to implementing IS this should improve a bit.

I've had the camera on a Bebob rig with Arri handles and they work great. But I've been forced to use a TV logic inverted underslung from the top as a VF. Not ideal.

I think once ther'e a n SDI EVF it should be a lot easier.

The camera tends to sit ideally behind you head, thus putting the touch screen behind your head. On the fly changes would require you to reach around and touch the screen. Obviously not ideal. I'm hoping BMD will develop the now very old LANC protocol to allow more remote control functionality that means you don't have to touch the screen itself.

The camera SDI outputs battery voltage, iso, shutter angle, WB and record status as well as scene shot metatdata. optionally you can activate frame lines and Zebra as well.

The screen is always activated as it's your interface...

jb
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Joel Crane

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 12:00 pm

John, Cineroid actually makes an SDI EVF.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... D_SDI.html
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John Brawley

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 12:05 pm

gingerfinger wrote:John, Cineroid actually makes an SDI EVF.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... D_SDI.html


I believe they only support 1080i. The camera is 1080p output. I believe the Alphatron will do the trick but haven't confirmed it with an actual unit.

jb
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msaulnier

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 5:22 pm

Anybody know compatible accessories for the BM Cine camera? (example : batteries (Anton Bauer or equivalent), rigs, EVF, etc.). I have some of these accessories for DSLR but few are compatible with BMCC.

I know that Shape WLB produce a great rig for this camera but dont know about the rest...

Thanks
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Charlie Anderson

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 2:23 am

I have this guy I'm planning on using:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/737491-REG/Switronix_XP_MAGIC_12_Powertap_Blackmagic_Converter_Cable.html

And also am ordering one of these. Have a friend with one and I love it.
http://ergocine.blogspot.com/
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Joel Crane

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 2:40 am

Brilliant!! A RED Aaton!! :D Damn I want one now!
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 4:49 am

gingerfinger wrote:John, Cineroid actually makes an SDI EVF.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... D_SDI.html


John is correct. We have tested this here. This SDI EVF does not support progressive HD-SDI video so it won't work with the Blackmagic Cinema Camera.
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Lorka

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 8:47 am

You'd be fine with a monitor like a TV Logic 5.6" though - http://www.videogear.co.uk/Monitors/HD- ... _1539.html
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Joel Crane

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 9:56 am

Kristian Lam wrote:
gingerfinger wrote:John, Cineroid actually makes an SDI EVF.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... D_SDI.html


John is correct. We have tested this here. This SDI EVF does not support progressive HD-SDI video so it won't work with the Blackmagic Cinema Camera.


Okay, well that's a bummer. Have you tested the Alphatron he mentioned?
Or would the best idea be just to get a SDI/HDMI converter and running an EVF through that and save an SDI connection for your monitor?
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Conan Palmer

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm

For those of you considering B&H for your Cinema Camera purchase, I noticed they are offering a substantial ($175USD) discount on the Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera Handles when purchased with the camera. The offer expires August 31, and it appears to have started today. I called and had them modify my order to include the discounted handles, hopefully that doesn't reset my place in the queue!

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... amera.html
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John Brawley

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 12:04 am

gingerfinger wrote:
Okay, well that's a bummer. Have you tested the Alphatron he mentioned?
Or would the best idea be just to get a SDI/HDMI converter and running an EVF through that and save an SDI connection for your monitor?



I don't think anyones seen the Alphtron VF's yet.

This would also occupy the single HD-SDI output. If you decide to use a HDSDI-->HDMI converter, make sure you get one with low latency. Very important for a Viewfinder !

jb
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Johannes

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 9:56 am

I am currenty looking to find a good rig solution for the BMCC to have external batteries, top handle, etc.
Bebob seems to be the only company at the moment who offers a nice accessory pack that has batteries, top handle, cage, baseplate etc. The other companies offer solutions as well but I haven't seen anyone offer a "all-in-one" package where you have the batteries, rods, cage, baseplate etc in one package.

John I saw from your photos that you are using the bebob. Is it money well spent?

I plan to use my rig for commercial shoots both shoulder mounted and tripod mounted.

Cheers,

Johannes
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John Brawley

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 11:45 am

Johannes wrote:I am currenty looking to find a good rig solution for the BMCC to have external batteries, top handle, etc.
Bebob seems to be the only company at the moment who offers a nice accessory pack that has batteries, top handle, cage, baseplate etc. The other companies offer solutions as well but I haven't seen anyone offer a "all-in-one" package where you have the batteries, rods, cage, baseplate etc in one package.

John I saw from your photos that you are using the bebob. Is it money well spent?

I plan to use my rig for commercial shoots both shoulder mounted and tripod mounted.

Cheers,

Johannes



I use the Bebob a lot and it's great if you're thinking of a more BUILT Up way of running this camera. Most of the accesories I'm running are larger and heavier accessories like the Arri FF, the 4 Stage Bright Tangerine Mattebox, Cinema style lenses.

I love the Bebob for this style of rig. I find it hard to take it off the cage.

But, if you want something a bit more slimmed down and minimal, the Viewfactor is very sweet and makes the camera really nice to use a pared back way. I'm still waiting for the Viewfactor rods support to turn up to try that out.

jb
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostSat Aug 25, 2012 4:41 pm

In addition to the excellent info here on BMD's official forum, if you are good at internet searches you will find very good info on 3rd party websites about 3rd party products for use with the BMCC.

Myself, I expect to use my BMCC in its "stripped down" configuration fairly often, primarily with >45 yr. old Nikkor F manual prime SLR lenses (24, 35, 55 & 85mm, all f2.8 or faster) via a Fotodiox "Pro" lens mount adapter:
http://fotodioxpro.com/index.php/nikon- ... apter.html
http://www.keh.com/Camera/format-35mm/s ... 136&r=WG&f

To go wider than my 24mm Nikkor prime, I haven't decided yet between getting the Tokina 11-16mm or Sigma 8-16mm zoom lenses. The Tokina is sigificantly faster than the Sigma, but the Sigma is significantly wider than the Tokina. If the BMCC's video S/N performance proves to be very good, that will probably sway me toward the Sigma, because when you want wide, your want wide!
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... DX_II.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Nt ... Search=yes

I already own an old Vocas matte box for 15mm rails, and I may get something like the Berkey Mikro baseplate to use with it because it's small & lightweight, unless perhaps they release a baseplate specifically for the BMCC:
http://www.berkeysystem.com/store/camer ... with-quad/

I'll probably use two pairs of 15mm rails 12" long each (4 pieces) with threaded ends so I configure it as a 12" long rig (for handheld or tripod use), or 24" long as a basic lightweight shoulder rig.

I'm still researching bits and pieces, but I might add a minimal shoulder pad to the rails such as possibly this one from Ikan or something similar:
http://www.ikancorp.com/productdetail.php?id=262

To mount an external battery and other gear such as a small audio field recorder (I own an old SoundDevices MixPre) and my Sennheiser wireless receivers, I might add a plate like this one from CPM to the rails so all the add-on gear is mounted behind my shoulder to counterbalance the camera in front of my shoulder:
http://www.cpmcamerarigs.com/cage_mount_p/023_bp.htm

The above CPM plate or something similar would allow adding a standard V-lock or Anton-Bauer gold-mount battery plate (with power tap), or possiby some yet-announced BMCC-specific external battery. I plan on mounting the battery below the rails so it helps lower the rig's center of gravity. Lighter items, such as the mixer & wireless might go above the rails. I don't like camera rigs that are top-heavy.

Since the BMCC has a touchscreen UI, I probably won't add a pair of hand grips below the matte box, and instead just grip either side of the BMCC itself. Likewise, most of my productions don't require a follow-focus, but one can always add these things as required. And the cost of accessories keeps coming down over time.

As I said, I'm still researching parts, and whatever rig I improvise, I'm not likely to purchase a camera cage. For most of my shoots I don't need to attach tons of gear quite that close to the camera itself, and for shoots that do I'll buy or rent what's required. I'd rather have a rig mostly based on standard rail parts so it can be configured in many ways and evolve over time.

Cheers.
Last edited by Peter J. DeCrescenzo on Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Margus Voll

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostSun Aug 26, 2012 6:16 am

http://www.abelcine.com/store/Alphatron ... iewfinder/

spec says it is 1080p but have to see what BM thinks about it.

by the specks seems promising.
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostSun Aug 26, 2012 11:41 am

I'm just back from shooting some tests, mostly on a tripod.
But I also tried to shoot the "naked" BMC handheld.

Well, it's doable to some degree, but It will not be my most favorite way.
Maybe in certain situations, when you have to go "stealth mode" for some reason, but otherwise I prefer a proper rig, with external monitor (peaking/waveform/false color), shoulder pad, grips and all.

Frank
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Set your zebras to 100%, ETTR and you're golden - and NO, you can't use TB as output for an external monitor, and you can't download the footy via TB ether.
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T.A. Franks

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostSun Aug 26, 2012 9:33 pm

Hey,

Is there plate for the Chrosziel 450-XLH1KIT2 XL to make it a good companion for the Blackmagic Cinema camera or is the standard plate fine to fit the camera? Besides, Chrosziel suggest to use the 450-20 the XL H1 kit comes with the 450-15 what is your take on this?
Thanks
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostMon Aug 27, 2012 9:54 pm

Bump. Per BMD's request I removed a link to a certain 3rd party website from my post earlier in this thread. Cheers.
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Jesuan Soriano

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Re: Ergonomics - handheld considerations

PostMon Aug 27, 2012 11:11 pm

i just found this... http://ikancorp.com/productdetail.php?id=515
only 499..looks interesting but maybe not strong or durable enough.. I don't know :)
Jesus Soriano

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