Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

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Taylor Cahill

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Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 9:50 pm

I have started a petition to see how many folks want to Upgrade from the Mini to Pro. I sure could use those features!
https://www.change.org/p/blackmagic-...ni-pro-upgrade

As early adopters with the Ursa Mini 4.6K many of us suffered from various issues. Such as severe image quality issues ie: crosshatching, due to improper sensor calibration which also made it unsueable at ISO 1600 due to noise.

I feel as though it would be the right thing to do for Black Magic Design to offer early customers of the Ursa Mini an upgrade option.

My camera was unusable for any serious production for the first six months of ownership due to the bad image calibration!
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timbutt2

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 10:05 pm

I think it would be nice of them to offer URSA Mini 4.6K owners the chance to upgrade at a discounted price. That would be more than reasonable. Good luck with the petition!
"Movies are not watched. They are an encounter with a life's experience not your own." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 12:57 am

I agree the offer should be on the table, but having reviewed all the options, the Mini 4.6K PL is still a great camera once it's accessorized. If this Pro was released last year I would have turned my Mini in for a Mini Pro, but I'm very pleased at this time with what the Mini can do. The Pro is superior operationally but the image will be virtually the same. And I have to justify my very recent purchase of seven IRND filters somehow!


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Darko Djerich

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 1:09 am

Agreed,
good option as 2nd body.
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Darko Djerich

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 1:10 am

Perhaps BMD should throw discount for 2nd body mini pro to existing mini users that would be reasonable.
Last edited by Darko Djerich on Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 1:10 am

I signed. Thank you for starting the petition.

The Ursa Mini didn't become a reliable tool until the cross hatching was fixed in firmware 4.2. That was only a couple months ago! And external timecode -- a basic feature -- still doesn't even sync!

Many of us invested a lot of time into carefully testing the Ursa Mini, reporting our results, then paying for shipping on multiple RMAs in order to get a working camera.

For BMD to not offer any upgrade path or discount for us all is a pretty low down move.
Last edited by Jamie LeJeune on Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Norbert von der Heidt

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 1:12 am

Hmmmm, I hope there's a cheap upgrade path for the first Mini owners who suffered for a year, waiting for their cameras. The main reason I went with the EF model was because we were all told various things: the PL-B4-EF compatibility was not possible, can't do ND filter wheel, yada, yada, yada, so it was the path of least resistance for me after the long wait.

Now all of a sudden, it's all possible ...... what gives? I feel a bit dudded by this camera's release! I can't believe this was all accomplished in the intervening year, someone must have known that this major tech leap forward was in the pipeline yet BMD kept very quite about it, why?

If I'd known this was happening I would have waited for this model instead. :roll:
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Norman Lang

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Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 1:16 am

rick.lang wrote:I agree the offer should be on the table, but having reviewed all the options, the Mini 4.6K PL is still a great camera once it's accessorized. If this Pro was released last year I would have turned my Mini in for a Mini Pro, but I'm very pleased at this time with what the Mini can do. The Pro is superior operationally but the image will be virtually the same. And I have to justify my very recent purchase of seven IRND filters somehow!


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Yes Rick. My sentiments as well. It looks cool. I would use it. But I love my mini 4.6. I also have use, on occasion, for my bmpc bmcc and bmpcc. They are all very cool cameras with different personalities and uses. And... Great images. We all know the headaches and growing pains that came with being pioneers, but it's been worth it. Do I need the pro? No. Will it come in handy at some future date perhaps. It is nice to see them continuing to make new and innovative products.


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Last edited by Norman Lang on Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Francisco Rodriguez

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 1:23 am

Norbert von der Heidt wrote:Hmmmm, I hope there's a cheap upgrade path for the first Mini owners who suffered for a year, waiting for their cameras. The main reason I went with the EF model was because we were all told various things: the PL-B4-EF compatibility was not possible, can't do ND filter wheel, yada, yada, yada, so it was the path of least resistance for me after the long wait.

Now all of a sudden, it's all possible ...... what gives? I feel a bit dudded by this camera's release! I can't believe this was all accomplished in the intervening year, someone must have known that this major tech leap forward was in the pipeline yet BMD kept very quite about it, why?

If I'd known this was happening I would have waited for this model instead. :roll:



+1
signed petition as well
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Serge Nanovsky

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 1:27 am

Got my Ursa Mini 4.6k a month ago and now I feel completely cheated on. :|
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timbutt2

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 1:32 am

rick.lang wrote:I agree the offer should be on the table, but having reviewed all the options, the Mini 4.6K PL is still a great camera once it's accessorized. If this Pro was released last year I would have turned my Mini in for a Mini Pro, but I'm very pleased at this time with what the Mini can do. The Pro is superior operationally but the image will be virtually the same. And I have to justify my very recent purchase of seven IRND filters somehow!


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I agree with you Rick. I think the biggest reason I would want to upgrade is for the interchangeable lens mount. That to me is the real selling point. A lot of the other features are fantastic additional features that you get as bonus. Many of those additional new features make usability more productive.

Personally I still prefer external ND filters because of the control aspect. You control by single stop increments how much light you're blocking with each ND filter. Then you also have the option for testing which NDIR works best. There's also the fact that I love to use a polarizer outdoors, so I naturally use a matte box most of the time I shoot.

The image really is the same here. It's the same sensor. I do find it funny how many URSA Mini's are currently getting listed for sale with the clear intention for the owner to upgrade to the URSA Mini Pro. I still think the upgrade discount would be a great thing for Blackmagic to do since other companies do this with their products. We'll see how Blackmagic responds. I have a feeling they're right now mainly dealing with all post-announcement matters. They'll get to this possibility in due time.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 2:37 am

Norman, eloquently stated. Tim, yes we can give everything some time for the dust to settle and the final options to be determined. We know what the options are today and we know BMD listens to feedback. So there may be another Mini 4K/4.6K upgrade path later, just not today. The nice thing is we still have cameras to shoot and we know how to make what we have do what we need for the most part.

If the Mini Pro had offered something different in terms of connections and codecs and frame rates, we might be really missing something crucially important. I don't feel that way with what I have. I'm missing a global shutter with HDR. Maybe that's on the drawing board in a new sensor for all we know. "Every dark cloud has a silver lining."


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Norman Lang

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 3:20 am

rick.lang wrote:Norman, eloquently stated. Tim, yes we can give everything some time for the dust to settle and the final options to be determined. We know what the options are today and we know BMD listens to feedback. So there may be another Mini 4K/4.6K upgrade path later, just not today. The nice thing is we still have cameras to shoot and we know how to make what we have do what we need for the most part.

If the Mini Pro had offered something different in terms of connections and codecs and frame rates, we might be really missing something crucially important. I don't feel that way with what I have. I'm missing a global shutter with HDR. Maybe that's on the drawing board in a new sensor for all we know. "Every dark cloud has a silver lining."


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That's the thing. For me I have the BMPC 4K with global shutter. So in a scene that might call for whip panning etc., I would use that camera. The pocket is cool because of its size and 16mm film feel. Flying it on a Ronin M for example is effortless. Add the speedbooster and you get other low light and wider fov benefits. Anyway I'm just kind of making the same point I guess, that it is nice to have different tools for different jobs.


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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 7:18 am

rick.lang wrote: If the Mini Pro had offered something different in terms of connections and codecs and frame rates, we might be really missing something crucially important.

I appreciate your perspective Rick, but as a documentary shooter I have to disagree and say unequivocally that the original 4.6 Ursa Mini is missing at least two crucial tools relative to the new Ursa Mini Pro:

1) It's missing internal IRND
Sticking IR+ND to the end of the lens takes time to add and remove multiple times over the course of a shooting day. As a doc shooter it means I miss shots. That is a crucial difference.

2) It's missing a decent audio pre-amp
The current Ursa Mini audio pre-amps just don't cut it for professional work. I have to record two-system. That requires additional gear, it adds the day rate for one more crew member and it adds time and complexity to post. Those are crucial differences that compound over time.

I'm beyond overjoyed that BMD has updated the Pro model with these amazingly useful and necessary additions, but BMD should be offering upgrade discounts to current 4.6K Ursa Mini owners the same as they are offering to Ursa owners. Period.
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Kristjan-Jaak Nuudi

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 7:39 am

Ursa is like iphone, new every year, could You make a phone function to it, so we can save money and just buy a new cam every year. So when Ursa mini pro + will come out?
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Adorján Czakó

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 8:31 am

I totally agree with you guys, and I don't see any major difference in the opinions. ;)

But this sums up how I feel

Jamie LeJeune wrote:I'm beyond overjoyed that BMD has updated the Pro model with these amazingly useful and necessary additions, but BMD should be offering upgrade discounts to current 4.6K Ursa Mini owners the same as they are offering to Ursa owners. Period.
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James Alexander Barnett

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 8:59 am

I must admit I feel slightly frustrated regarding the upgrade to, don't get me wrong I absolutely love the camera and the images are stunning, my only frustrations I have with the camera, like the ND filters and crappy pre-amps have now been fixed which makes this a great proposition.

The thing that does frustrate me was I placed my order for the camera back in May 2016 as soon as they announced they were shipping, despite being at number 5 in the queue at my retailer it took up until October 2016 to receive the camera, I then subsequently sent the camera back to BM due to crosshatching and they had it another 3 weeks (ish) before sending me a new one, which even now (crosshatching) is far from perfect when in challenging lighting conditions and pushing the ISO to 1600.

Overall I am very happy with the camera, I look at the footage and most of the time I'm blown away, it just seems crazy that after 6 months there is something better out that is fixing the issues of the original camera, yes its a little more expensive however I feel its defiantly worth it for the extra convenience and ease of use.

With the rate they are going I doubt it will be long before they have maybe a higher resolution sensor or even better imo a sensor that has a higher native ISO say 1600 that can be pushed up to 3200 or something like that, as tech guys we always love the latest and greatest gear and when after 12 months something new comes out we feel as if we are behind the curve, in this case I think it will be about me putting that to rest and enjoying what I have and doing great work with it.

Unless they do offer something then I will prob bite their hand off. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 10:44 am

I have to say that I am super annoyed at this new camera, I have had the mini Ursa 4.6 for just less than a month, and now they bring out the pro. I have done just one pro job with my original mini Ursa 4.6. The fact that the pro is either now shipping or shipping soon shows that they have been working on it and making it for a while. After waiting so long for the original 4.6 to be in stock and then finally getting my hands on it, I find it super frustrating that the new one ships straight away after just 28 days of owning the original 4.6! Had I known the pro was coming I would have waited.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 11:22 am

This was the response i got after email the company, I have to say that i now feel completely let down now by the company.

Thank you for your email.

The Ursa Mini Pro, is not an upgrade to the Ursa Mini, so I am afraid we will not be offering any upgrade pricing from this model. Blackmagic Design are continually looking to innovate and design the best possible products for our industry. There will always have to be a specific point in time, when such an announcement is made.

The Ursa Mini Pro does not end of life the Ursa Mini. Both camera lines are amazing products, but have different features and camera bodies, which is also reflected in the greater price of the Ursa Mini Pro. As such, they become different tools for the job you want to do, based on your own requirements. They will continue to exist alongside each other and the Ursa Mini will continue to be the same great camera it was, when you chose to order it, before the announcement of any new camera.

Please do not hesitate to contact us for any further information or assistance.

Regards,

Callum Mclay
Technical Support Manager EMEA
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 12:07 pm

iaincash wrote:I have to say that I am super annoyed at this new camera, I have had the mini Ursa 4.6 for just less than a month, and now they bring out the pro. I have done just one pro job with my original mini Ursa 4.6. The fact that the pro is either now shipping or shipping soon shows that they have been working on it and making it for a while. After waiting so long for the original 4.6 to be in stock and then finally getting my hands on it, I find it super frustrating that the new one ships straight away after just 28 days of owning the original 4.6! Had I known the pro was coming I would have waited.


I'm in the same boat as you and have had my 4.6k a little over a month. I to would have waited for the pro version. Plus I had to send the first unit back because it has stuck pixels and my new unit has some FPN noise issues. I also feel for all those people who have had even more problems with the earlier cameras. I feel like anyone who bought the Mini 4.6k paid $5-5.5K to be a beta tester for the pro. The pro has obviously been in development for a while and BMD "listened" to it's users and fixed everything they did wrong in the 4.6k. How about some compensation for all those beta testers!? Sorry if I sound a bit harsh but this leaves a bad taste in the mouth for me and I'm starting to wish I stayed in the Raven queue. :roll:
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Donnell Henry

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 1:35 pm

I would like to know if you can order a PL Mount Ursa mini Pro, or does it come as a standard Ef mount, then you have to buy the PL Mount? Maybe I missed that in the conference.
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David Regenthal

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 3:13 pm

Says it comes with the Canon mount on the website.
Makes sense that, instead of retailers having to balance inventory of multiple configurations, YOU can have both (or all three) for a little more than the difference between the EF and PL mini's . . .
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 4:58 pm

iaincash wrote:I have to say that I am super annoyed at this new camera, I have had the mini Ursa 4.6 for just less than a month, and now they bring out the pro. I have done just one pro job with my original mini Ursa 4.6. The fact that the pro is either now shipping or shipping soon shows that they have been working on it and making it for a while. After waiting so long for the original 4.6 to be in stock and then finally getting my hands on it, I find it super frustrating that the new one ships straight away after just 28 days of owning the original 4.6! Had I known the pro was coming I would have waited.


I would contact your dealer and see if he will take the camera back (as long as it still looks new, no marks in it) and order you the new UM Pro. Worth a try :?:
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 5:10 pm

When Canon came out with new models in the C100 and C300, they did not have an upgrade offer to current owners of the earlier models, nor does Sony or Panasonic, so why should BM do so :?:

The current BM UM 4.6 PL/EF do what they were designed to do, Cinema cameras. The UM 4.6s all have the same sensor and video processor. The Pro has some added features to make it more better suited for TV and Live event productions.

The current UM 4.6 was designed first as a Cinema camera, and the PL,
version, had an afterthought add on with the B4 mount and setup for ATEM CCU control. But given the video signal delay in the UM, it is not a live event switching camera when mixed with other cameras.

Does the new UM Pro suffer from the same video delay? Yes, yes it does (confirmed by BM). Also, why do you think the new Pro will not also suffer from the same manufacturer production issues/defects, the current UM 4.6s have :?: The Pro is a different camera from the ground up, not an upgrade of the current UM 4.6, they just share the same sensor. Users were asking for a new 4.6 camera with additional features like built in filters, etc. Now you got it, a new 4.6 camera -- enjoy! :roll:
Last edited by Denny Smith on Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 5:39 pm

Thanks and Signed! As Ursa mini 4.6k owners we definitely were beta testers...
After waiting for an eternity to receive the camera, my new 4.6k went down on it's first (very important) shoot. Internal electronics haywired... Camera sent back... Camera replaced.
Finally get replacement. On the very next shoot with replacement camera, the replacement bricked two days into shoot... Luckily I had backup cameras for both shoots
I was told that in the 2nd case the monitor cable disconnected internally. I asked if and when this happens again in the future, can I open it up and reconnect? Def NOT... Warranty would void
Sigh. So a majority of the time of the time I have had the 4.6, I have not been able to use it.
I would be happy with a similar deal as the original Ursa upgrade... Happy even with a bit less of a discount... or happy sending 4.6 back for RED style upgrade...

Keeping your user base happy (or at least remembered) should be priority, as we are the most effective proponents of the brand... The boots on the ground convincing producers and directors to use the cameras in the first place
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rick.lang

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Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 6:30 pm

Jamie, I agree with those key features. Clearly the internal IRND filters are a great asset for shooting the camera when you are on the move or conditions are rapidly changing and changing filters in a matte box isn't feasible. But a current screw-on variable ND can also be a good solution too. And when you do have the time, even in a documentary and always in a narrative piece, a matte box with a complete set of filters is going to be ideal.

Every BMD camera has boasted of production quality or professional audio in one way or another and all have been disappointing so far in one way or another. Let's see how the UMP46 handles audio before reaching a conclusion, but I admit if the Captain says it's improved, then it is improved. The preamps are the same as those in the latest Video Assist 4K so folks using audio that way can comment.

I'm very happy to see the UMP46 with all the operational enhancements. It continues to share some of the shortcomings related to the BM Viewfinder's flexibility and the design of the Shoulder Mount Kit makes it difficult to balance the camera with heavier lenses. And global shutter is still listed as MIA so we don't know if it's dead or alive. Perhaps the shortcomings will be addressed at NAB 2017!

It's a new camera because it's called the URSA Mini Pro and externally the changes are readily apparent with likely more internal changes than we know. I like the camera very much. I wish I had bought it last year! I don't think I need that camera now, but I understand others are very enthusiastic. I have to work around the UM46 restrictions, but that rig and the accessories don't come cheap. Audio may be the next thing I need to address perhaps with wireless lavalieres and maybe external preamps/recorders. I'll wait a bit to see how the new camera proves itself though.

Best thing about the UMP46: Buy Now, Now Shipping!


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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 6:39 pm

Ya I'm not a fan of the shoulder rig. I wish there was a nice way to hang a counter balance off the back.
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rick.lang

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Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 7:28 pm

I hang a six pound bag of rice by looping it over the battery plate. Not ideal way to balance the Fujinon Cine zoom, better to have an option to add rods out the back of the Shoulder Mount.


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Shawn Convey

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 8:21 pm

Taylor Cahill wrote:I have started a petition to see how many folks want to Upgrade from the Mini to Pro. I sure could use those features!
https://www.change.org/p/blackmagic-...ni-pro-upgrade


I clicked the link but could not find the petition, did you kill it?
Is there news on this subject that I am missing?

Also according to NEWSSHOOTER:

For owners of the original URSA (it is not clear whether this applies to the URSA Mini non 4.6 version as well) you will be able to upgrade to a URSA Mini Pro for $3495US. All you need to do is provide proof of purchase of your URSA. According to Blackmagic that $3495US price gets you a new URSA Mini Pro and you still get to keep your old camera.


http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/03/02/blackmagic-design-announces-the-ursa-mini-pro-with-built-in-nd-filters-and-user-changeable-lens-mounts/

That would be "fair" if true... but the response that iaincash got from Callum Mclay Technical Support Manager EMEA does not sit well...

If anyone does have any more real intel on this upgrade please do let me know.
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 8:37 pm

Shawn Convey wrote:If anyone does have any more real intel on this upgrade please do let me know.

The straight up answer from BMD is no.

Here's the response I got when I emailed BMD support to inquire about upgrades for 4.6K Ursa Mini owners:

"Hello Jamie,

The Ursa Mini Pro is not an upgrade to the Ursa Mini, so I am afraid we will not be offering any upgrade pricing from this model. The Ursa Mini Pro does not end of life the Ursa Mini. Both camera lines are amazing products, but have different features and camera bodies, which is also reflected in the greater price of the Ursa Mini Pro.

As such, they become different tools for the job you want to do, based on your own requirements. They will continue to exist alongside each other and the Ursa Mini will continue to be the same great camera it was, when you chose to order it, before the announcement of any new camera.

Regards,

Tony Rivera
Blackmagic Design "

Everything Tony wrote applies equally to the big Ursa, but there you go. Ursa owners get the upgrade, 4.6K Ursa Mini owners don't.
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Stephen Press

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 8:37 pm

Denny Smith wrote:When Canon came out with new models in the C100 and C300, they did not have an upgrade offer to current owners of the earlier models, nor does Sony or Panasonic, so why should BM do so :?:


That's not quite true. Both Sony and Panasonic used to have a buy back deal where if you bought a camera within 6 months of a new release they would buy back your "old
" camera for the original price you paid and credit it to the new camera.
That seems fair to me.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 9:02 pm

Interesting, first I have heard of this. When I got my Panasonic AF100 four months before the AF100A came out, Panasonic did not offer to buy back my camera. Their reposnse was to sell me a firmware upgrade for $150. But that did not get me the hardware update in the AF100A, I had to sell my AF100 (with the paid FW update) at a loss to get the newer AF100A, so I could have 1080p60 output.

But still, the UM Pro is Not an update for the UM 4.6 EF/PL, unlike the C100/300, it is a new different camera model in the Ursa Mini Line. You would not expect BM to buy back or discount a UM PL to you after you bought a EF, and decided severalonths later, you really needed the PL version :?: Same holds true for the UM Pro. :mrgreen:
Cheers
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Scott Pultz

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 9:04 pm

Stephen Press wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:When Canon came out with new models in the C100 and C300, they did not have an upgrade offer to current owners of the earlier models, nor does Sony or Panasonic, so why should BM do so :?:


That's not quite true. Both Sony and Panasonic used to have a buy back deal where if you bought a camera within 6 months of a new release they would buy back your "old
" camera for the original price you paid and credit it to the new camera.
That seems fair to me.


It would be nice, but it also raises the prices of the cameras. Red has upgrade programs and they build this into the purchase price.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 11:05 pm

Its not "nice" its sowing respect to your client base. The way the Pro has been launched is a big FU to all the existing Mini owners. When I put my money down last month there was no indication that a new camera was coming. Hell they even made us sit through 40 min of mind numbing small stuff before saying "Oh and by the way we just made all your cameras obsolete." That might have been a better lead guys.
Honestly I feel sick, I feel angry. I'm not feeling a lot of love to Blackmagic.
They need to make this right. They need to communicate with us more clearly and let us know where we stand.
If there is a deal to be had they should tell us now.
If there isn't they should do the same.
Friday morning 9am NZ time I loved my UM4.6 and was BM biggest fan, by 10 not so much.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 11:28 pm

Stephen, I hope the next few times you use the UM4.6K, you'll feel that love again. We've all had similar experiences with a variety of equipment. It's part of the reality of BMD that we know they almost never announce a new product with any kind of warning or heads-up to people purchasing their products. I've owned my UM4.6PL since the first week of April 2016, the first production model in Canada. I'm glad I bought it. I've used it likely an average of twice a week for much of that time. Now I know BMD likely could have announced the Mini Pro at NAB 2016 and then taken another 11 months to ship it. That would have hurt, as you feel pain now. But I spent almost as much money on a RAID that was old news within a few months of my purchase. You win some, you lose some. The best camera is the one you have. You learn to make it do what you need. It's your best inorganic friend. Hope shooting with it restores the feelings you had using it before yesterday!


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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 11:37 pm

I get it, its still the camera I bought. But it was a compromise that the time, needing work arounds to make it fit my ENG workflow. I thought I could live with that but to have the ideal camera come out a month after purchasing a camera that was the best I could do at the time... I'm a bit angry... its the lack of communication from BM that is really pissing me off.

That said can I sign up as a beta tester?
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 1:01 am

I can understand frustration if you just bought the UM4.6K. However, it's not like it's an occurrence that doesn't happen. I remember a friend trying to convince me to get a 7D just before the BMCC was announced. Now, I did get the BMCC, but that 7D sustained work for a period of time before I got the BMCC. I was far more satisfied with the BMCC than the 7D. Was I upset? With my friend more than any company. We had no idea the BMCC was coming.

Overall, there is no difference in picture quality between the two 4.6K cameras. That's something we have to remember. Now, I may be better off than some because I use a matte box and NDIR filters so internal ND is not a big deal for me. Although, I did do the math and if I didn't have to purchase ND 1.2, 1.5, and 1.8 filters because of the internal NDIR that would be a saver. I would only need ND 0.3, 0.6, 0.9 to be covered with internal ND. So that's a money saver. I can't argue with that.

The thing is that you're paying that price difference in price of the unit. So then it's all the extra features that you're looking at. To me the thing that matters is interchangeable lens mount because it opens more production options so that you can take bigger jobs with PL glass rented while owning EF mount glass for lower end stuff. That's nice. After I also love the Cooke /i technology integration that has finally been added. That was a request I had. I don't know if ARRI LDS technology is also possible, so that's the next update that needs to come to the PL mount system.

I'm almost wondering if we should start leasing camera technology practice in the industry. You buy your camera out, but it's a lease program where an upgrade price is always available so that you can constantly keep your camera tech up to date within a certain company. This could help with recycling the old camera tech. I don't it's just an idea. However, it does mean that you have to not break your camera. I guess that's what purchasing the camera and having warranty is about... still an idea.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 1:15 am

7D and BMCC are made by 2 different companies so why would anyone be upset?
BM sold me a camera knowing that it was already obsolete... that does upset me.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 1:42 am

Stephen Press wrote:7D and BMCC are made by 2 different companies so why would anyone be upset?
BM sold me a camera knowing that it was already obsolete... that does upset me.

The 7D and BMCC was an analogy. I know they're different companies.

BM sold you the camera you bought knowing it was already obsolete? Did you buy the camera direct from BM or a vendor? Even still, I appreciate them announcing the new camera and making it available the day they announced more than anything because it helps fix some of the previous complaints about announcing and then having it that they miss shipping dates. I never had a problem with that personally, and other companies also experience delays to their release schedule. However, I don't think you can be angry that Blackmagic didn't announce this camera as in development. They announced it when it was appropriate. I'm fine with that.

And, I don't really think the URSA Mini 4.6K is obsolete. Like I said it is the same sensor technology and as a result the images will be the same. The only real difference is all the extra features that help you operate the camera with speed and ease. I don't think you can state that they sold you an obsolete camera. They did not do that.

Above all else, I'm voicing support for upgrade paths for URSA Mini 4.6K owners because I think that it is fair. I think it is a great way to reward those who have bought their cameras. It keeps people loyal. However, you need to show some respect to the company as they have provided incredible camera technology at super affordable costs.
"Movies are not watched. They are an encounter with a life's experience not your own." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 2:39 am

If its really not obsolete then BM would have no problems reselling them after buying them back as a trade up option. :)

Sony and Panasonic have both done that in the past, if BM wants to be taken seriously they should do something for their existing clients
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 6:05 am

Stephen, I have not heard of Canon or Panasonic buying back older cameras when a new camera (upgrade) is released in the US, anyway. I,had a AF100, purchased shortly before the AF100A came out, and Panasonic USA's response was a $150 firmware upgrade for my AF 100! Get real, the Ursa Mini Pro is not even an upgrade of the Ursa Mini, it is a different camera, like the Canon C100 and C300.
Cheers
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 6:11 am

Please don't tell my UM46K PL/B4 camera that she's obsolete. She's happy when she gets out for a spin and feels she's the centre of the universe! I'll never tell her about the UMP46K. Have a heart, guys and girls.


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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 6:17 am

No worries Rick, your UM46PL is Not obsolete, she should have a long life ahead of her. : :mrgreen:
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Adorján Czakó

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 9:05 am

I tought I replied, but now i cannot find it anywhere.

I don't really know how Canon or Panasonic or Sony dealt with their customers when it came to a camera upgrade but I don't think it would change the way we ursa mini owners feel now.
We are talking about different priceranges, different years completely different situations and most of all: different companies. II'm not on their forum, i'm on bmd, I'm they customer and whan to communicate with them.

(altough I can find positive examples like Canopus, they offer discount upgrade option if you buy edius within x months before they release the new version. But still. It doesn't change anything in our situation)

I just want you to try to understand our situation.
Ursa mini (4.6k) first was announced in 2015 March or so, most of us decided to buy it as soon as we can. Wow 4.6k cam, 15 stops, global and rolling shutter options, 120fps (maybe 160 from some sources), gps, small format, nice addititions etc!
About that... globalshutter no, gps no, and also no release in in July, but we do our best, it's still a great camera, and btw "the best camera is what you have!"
(anyone who ever used these wise words, did you guys tell it to your customer when you sent your offers? ;) no? tought so...)
ohh.. aaaand yeah there is the thing with the fpn, the magenta cast, the crosshatching... but if you can really explain why you can't tell a good story with magenta corners and a grid all around it you can try and RMA it.
Yeah and a year late. Or more, we will see ;) And you guys with the ursa majors and the promissed turrets... well... let's get
back to you a bit later, okay?

I obviously joking a bit, but we all know, um46 went trough a really tough path to get to be as it was (mainly) promissed. This was possible because a bunch of customers bought it regardless it's known faults and tested it. It feels like all these testing, pointing out design errors, feature ideas, practical functions, led to ursa mini pro. Which is btw a great camera, a real powerhorse.
Now these earlybirds can't upgrade, because "X".

(Btw we are on the other side, cause here in Europe we could only buy the camera in mid november. The package came full around november.... if i had any clue...)

"X"= reasons. btw these reasons could be easily applied in any existing upgrade options and conditions, including the 3.500 Ursa offer.
Upgrade option is not about you are having a bad camera, it's about giving a mutually beneficial option. Not even mandatory option. Good for the company, good for the customers.

Long story short. I feel like BMD should really consider extending the ursa major upgrade option to the um46.

ps.: I understand BMCC came out around 7d, there are multiple products in the c100/300/500 series, and Panasonic doesn't offer upgrade discounts. But srsly what does it have to do with us?

Thanks for reading it and... sorry for my english :)
Cheers
Adorján
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 9:26 am

timbutt2 wrote: I appreciate them announcing the new camera and making it available the day they announced more than anything because it helps fix some of the previous complaints about announcing and then having it that they miss shipping dates.

They didn't announce the Ursa Mini Pro at the same time as it was ready to ship to win accolades or address complaints about shipping. BMD is a business and they are being strategic. Just look at how they played it.
BMD announced the original Ursa Mini at NAB 2015, but then they ran into delays and didn't even begin shipping it until NAB 2016. They rushed it and shipped the camera with known issues -- magenta vignette + crosshatching -- that had already been flagged by their beta testers, yet they sold a ton of cameras to unsuspecting buyers while pretending that somehow these were unforeseen problems.
The Ursa Mini Pro must certainly have been planned before NAB 2016, yet BMD didn't announce it in advance as they have for all of their other cameras. Why would they change release tactics? Because they knew if they announced the Ursa Mini Pro 6 to 12 months before its release many people would cancel their original Ursa Mini pre-orders and simply wait for the Pro. If they had truly been acting in the good faith of their customers, they should have announced their plans for the Pro and sold the original Ursa Mini honestly as a paid public beta program. Some people would have purchased the public beta, others would have waited for the Pro. Same end result in terms of timelines, but a big difference in customer trust and satisfaction. I think it would have saved a lot of frustration, wasted time, lost money, and anger at BMD. But, here we are.

The flip side is that if it were Canon, they would wait until 2018 to announce and ship an upgraded model that is 1-2 years behind the competition but charge almost twice as much ;)
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 10:42 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
timbutt2 wrote: I appreciate them announcing the new camera and making it available the day they announced more than anything because it helps fix some of the previous complaints about announcing and then having it that they miss shipping dates.

They didn't announce the Ursa Mini Pro at the same time as it was ready to ship to win accolades or address complaints about shipping. BMD is a business and they are being strategic. Just look at how they played it.
BMD announced the original Ursa Mini at NAB 2015, but then they ran into delays and didn't even begin shipping it until NAB 2016. They rushed it and shipped the camera with known issues -- magenta vignette + crosshatching -- that had already been flagged by their beta testers, yet they sold a ton of cameras to unsuspecting buyers while pretending that somehow these were unforeseen problems.
The Ursa Mini Pro must certainly have been planned before NAB 2016, yet BMD didn't announce it in advance as they have for all of their other cameras. Why would they change release tactics? Because they knew if they announced the Ursa Mini Pro 6 to 12 months before its release many people would cancel their original Ursa Mini pre-orders and simply wait for the Pro. If they had truly been acting in the good faith of their customers, they should have announced their plans for the Pro and sold the original Ursa Mini honestly as a paid public beta program. Some people would have purchased the public beta, others would have waited for the Pro. Same end result in terms of timelines, but a big difference in customer trust and satisfaction. I think it would have saved a lot of frustration, wasted time, lost money, and anger at BMD. But, here we are.


You hit the nail on the head with this Jamie! This is what has me so angry over the release of this camera. There was no hint at all this camera was in the pipeline and you stated the reasons for that perfectly. In the end, BM is in this business to do one thing. Make money. By not offering a discount or upgrade path to the Pro they're proving this and not respecting the customers who had so many headaches with the Mini and made the Pro possible in the first place. They're going to sell a TON of these cameras. I would think letting existing Mini owners upgrade wouldn't hurt their profits in the the least. We'll see how it all shakes out but as of now, I'm more upset with BM as a company than I am about the new camera.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 10:47 am

Garth McElroy wrote: They're going to sell a TON of these cameras. I would think letting existing Mini owners upgrade wouldn't hurt their profits in the the least. We'll see how it all shakes out but as of now, I'm more upset with BM as a company than I am about the new camera.


I agree, but also in profitvise it could work in their advantage.
I think turning a few hundred mini owners mood from upset to satisfied, would be also visible in profit.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 2:02 pm

I am not really angry at BMD. But:
Would I have bought and received the UM46k in July 2015 after its NAB15 announcement and 1.5 years later there comes the UMP - no hard feelings.
In reality the UM46k was announced for July 2015 but only delivered much later. I ordered mine after the announcement of the new features and improvements of the upcoming FW4.0. That was in April 2016, and I received my camera 7 months later in November 2016.
3 months later - bang - there is the UMP, available now. All ergonomics shortcomings of the UM46k addressed. That leaves a bitter taste.

I would say nothing if I had ordered and received my UM46k in April 2016...

Anyway - I love the image quality I get from my UM46k, it is a fantastic camera. I've learned to live with and work around its shortcomings and I might add the UMP to my toolset later.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 2:20 pm

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 3:56 pm



That is the upgrade promotion for URSA 4k and "4.6k" owner. Not for URSA Mini owner.
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