Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostWed Mar 15, 2017 7:02 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:Why am I making this point? Because I think that the original Ursa Mini is not really a different model of camera than the Pro as BMD is claiming. It is simply a beta version of the Pro model. And, I doubt that it will last in BMD's lineup the same 4 years (and counting) as the original Cinema Camera has done.


That's complete bogus. The UM 4.6K had a terrible launch, but the reality is that it's still a very good cinema camera, every bit as good as the UM 4.6K Pro.

Yes, a lot of people claim that integral NDs are a critical feature, but that's really only true for ENG cameras. Anyone who bought an UM 4.6K for ENG was a fool; they should have gone with a Sony FS5 or FS7 instead, since those were designed for ENG.

I'm frankly shocked that the price difference between the two is so small; the new features and ergonomics justify a $2K or even $3K price difference... though if that were the case, people would be complaining that it's too expensive.

It's really a lot more like the difference between a Scarlet-W with an OMOD XLR and a Scarlet-W with a Red IO Expander. The cameras are the same, the features aren't, and depending on your needs, the XLR might be critical, and it might also be irrelevant. For film production, it's honestly irrelevant.

With a Red you get to choose your own components; you can add external modules to give you dedicated controls, but the modules cost more than the price difference between the UM 4.6K and the Pro model.

People really should appreciate what they have and stop complaining that BMD isn't giving them more; these cameras cost a lot less than they should.

That said, the UM 4.6K launch was a disaster. BMD should definitely have handled that better, and it's pretty obvious that it was a major reason that BMD waited until the Pro was ready to launch before announcing it. I'm pretty sure that the 4.6K launch problems and delays drove a lot of BMD customers to Red.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostWed Mar 15, 2017 5:15 pm

Very good points Rakesh, the three UMs, the original Cine 4.6K E and PL versions and now the Pro.
All three are based on the same sensor, but aimed at different primary application. They can all do the same job, but one will be easier to use for a specific task than the other. It is nice to be able to select the model that would be best suited for the job/requirements. Are they perfect? No, but no one camera is.

They are all great little cameras, priced way below their competition. :mrgreen:
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Michael Moore

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostWed Mar 15, 2017 10:55 pm

Ursa mini pro could be a good cinema camera like Ursa mini 4.6. But i doubt that ursa mini pro could be a real ENG camera. Run and gun style for ENG camera require to use a servo zoom broadcast lens. Most cheaper servo zoom lens that i know is Canon CN-E 18-80mm T4.4. But to use a T 4.4 lens with a just 800 ISO native sensor is a joke for ENG style. Many time in broadcast television news must to shoot in many locations interiors without can to control the light. What results can offer ursa mini pro if you must to stay in 800 ISO? 1600 ISO at ursa mini 4.6 is very noisy, i think ursa mini pro is same at 1600 ISO. Blackmagic company must to increase the ISO sensor sensitivity if want to have buyers for the ENG style.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostWed Mar 15, 2017 11:12 pm

0db gain on an ENG camera is equivalent to iso 200 on an URSA mini 4.6k meaning that 800 iso is equivalent to +12db (an increase of 3db gain is half a stop). That's huge! I'm not sure you'd find a broadcast camera cleaner at +12db than the mini at 800 iso.

Also as regards lenses you can use the B4 mount giving you access to a massive number of fast servo zooms, many of them relatively cheap these days.

I
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 12:51 am

Yes, the Mini Pro or Mini PL is going to give you an optional B4 lens mount, camera has 12-pin lens connection and you are good to go I. 2K and HD window mode with a good B4 2/3rds HD ENG zoom.
But given the release of this new Mini Pro, with its ENG setup, the prices son good used HD B4 Zooms is going to go up!

If you need the Run and Gun style of shooting requirements, then upgrading for the UM46 EF to the Pro would be an option to look into. :mrgreen:
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Last edited by Denny Smith on Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Michael Moore

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 1:18 am

Adam Copland wrote:0db gain on an ENG camera is equivalent to iso 200 on an URSA mini 4.6k meaning that 800 iso is equivalent to +12db (an increase of 3db gain is half a stop). That's huge! I'm not sure you'd find a broadcast camera cleaner at +12db than the mini at 800 iso.
I

First, i know that 800 ISO is +6 gain equivalent. Tell me if i wrong. Second, i dont like to compare here Blackmagic with another brand but because you has started this conversation i give you few example. Sony FS7 have 2000 native ISO and a clear pictures up near to 6400 ISO. Sony FS5 have 3200 native ISO and a clear pictures up 6400 ISO. Panasonic AG DVX 200 have also a clear pictures near 6400 ISO. I give you just few example about camera that have minim 12 stop dinamic range and maxim 15 stop dinamic range and comparable budget with all ursa mini models (body+viewfinder+battery plate).
I dont know until now a Blackmagic model suitable for low light situation in ENG style.Can you recommend me a Blackmagic camera for low light?
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 1:26 am

Ladies and gentlemen, Tony is closing threads that can't stay on topic.


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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 1:42 am

Thanks Rick, edited my post to get back in track here.

Michael, we were compairing the UM Pro to a Sony/Panasonic HD ENG camera, not the Sony FS7 etc, which can shoot at higher ISO settings -- But, they do not shoot Raw or low compression ProRes or high bit rate files either, where as the Broadcast ENG cameras shoot at higher MPeg4 bit rates (200MPS). The UM46 sensor will image quality will best the pants off the Sony and Panasonic upstarts you mentioned.

Each camera has its place and meets the shooters specific needs, Yes, the UM 46 is not s low light or super fast to use camera, but it is an excellent Cine IQ type camera, giving a image that is easy to work with and get great results from when exposed properly. :mrgreen:
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 3:33 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:Why am I making this point? Because I think that the original Ursa Mini is not really a different model of camera than the Pro as BMD is claiming. It is simply a beta version of the Pro model. And, I doubt that it will last in BMD's lineup the same 4 years (and counting) as the original Cinema Camera has done.


Rakesh Malik wrote:I'm frankly shocked that the price difference between the two is so small;


That's exactly my point. With such a small difference in price, but large difference in features, the original Ursa Mini has no compelling reason to be purchased, thus no reason for BMD to continue to offer it for years into the future.

Rakesh Malik wrote:People really should appreciate what they have and stop complaining that BMD isn't giving them more; these cameras cost a lot less than they should.


I've purchased three different models of BMD cameras and use them constantly. I am very thankful for what they've created and my post did not ask for more hardware or features. I'm asking for more honesty and transparency in their communications and marketing. The original Ursa Mini should have been advertised as a public beta. BMD have done this with Resolve releases. They should extend that same level of honesty to their camera releases.

Rakesh Malik wrote:That said, the UM 4.6K launch was a disaster. BMD should definitely have handled that better, and it's pretty obvious that it was a major reason that BMD waited until the Pro was ready to launch before announcing it.


Again, exactly my point. They waited because it would have caused many people to simply postpone their purchase and wait for the Pro.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 7:51 am

In the end it comes down to trust. To be quite frank the way I feel BMD has treated UM owners will make me think long and hard about doing business with them in the future. Next time I might ask them to kiss me first...
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 11:12 am

If the ursa mini pro could be used same time like a ENG camera and cinema camera than is a big deal for all studio video productions. But ursa mini pro could't be used like a ENG camera because his poor capability in low light situation. Is just a cinema camera like ursa mini 4.6K. Worth this upgrade from ursa mini 4.6K to ursa mini pro for internal ND and SD cards capability?
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 1:33 pm

BMD has given us amazing tools in past few years and created many fans Worldwide in short time.
They kept the word in sorting most issues out and i am real fan and appreciate what they did.

However this latest release has both excited and shocked me and now i feel like selling all BM cameras and switching to RED.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 1:42 pm

Eng style camera from sony its the 3cmos 2/3 inch the Pxw x400 is for 15000$ without lens and only HD, as for the FS7 you can adapt it to b4 but the e mount to b4 is for 2500$, and you can't control the lens from the camera.
I wouldn't consider the UMP as a dedicated ENG camera but more as a hybrid camera, it can do 70% of ENG work and 100% film work, its really a cool camera. If the sensor was better in low light and had better details in crop mode then this camera should sell for 16000$ at least
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 5:45 pm

Yes Tarek, i agree. Comparing the UM Pro to a 15K ENG camera, which has the same exposure limitations, as 12Db gain on one is like ISO 800/1200 (depending on the camera) on the UM, is like comparing apples to oranges, both fruit, but not the same. If you want/need a true ENG camera, go out an buy one from Sony or Pasnasonic, and spend $12K-16K. :mrgreen:
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 7:50 pm

Michael Moore wrote:First, i know that 800 ISO is +6 gain equivalent. Tell me if i wrong.


It depends to which camera you compare this. Most small sensor ENG cameras can be rated by using a lightmeter as 240-320 base ISO, so UM46k base ISO is ~+9dB

Michael Moore wrote:Sony FS7 have 2000 native ISO and a clear pictures up near to 6400 ISO. Sony FS5 have 3200 native ISO and a clear pictures up 6400 ISO. Panasonic AG DVX 200 have also a clear pictures near 6400 ISO.


All those cameras are using heavy de-noising post-processing in camera. If you have seen how noisy RAW footage from the Sony FS7 is, you wouldn't talk about it having clean pictures...

What even the BMCC is capable after de-noising in post I have shown here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=57062#p327539

No problem to push the ISO1600 footage another +4 stops or +24 dB
Click the preview images for 1920x1080 image.
Image
ISO 1600 / shutter 180° / similar to what I could see with my bare eyes

Image
ISO 1600 / shutter 360° / +4 stops pulled in post

Image
ISO 1600 / shutter 360° / +4 stops pulled in post / + heavy noise reduction
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 9:54 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Yes Tarek, i agree. Comparing the UM Pro to a 15K ENG camera, which has the same exposure limitations, as 12Db gain on one is like ISO 800/1200 (depending on the camera) on the UM, is like comparing apples to oranges, both fruit, but not the same. If you want/need a true ENG camera, go out an buy one from Sony or Pasnasonic, and spend $12K-16K. :mrgreen:


I dont know if it's a good idea to invest in those Sony or Panny ENG cameras coz in 1 or 2 years they will be obsolete
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 17, 2017 12:52 am

Unless you work for a TV station, and they are paying for it... I agree, not the best camera investment.
But for covering sporting events, sime live events using multiple camera coverage with live switching, etc for "live to to tape" or direct broadcast, then an ENG camera is your best bet. It has the lenses, CCU etc you need to do this.

But for independent, one or two camera productions that are recorded for post production, then the BM Ursa UM, etc are a better, less expensive choice. If you have the bucks, then get/rent an Arri. :mrgreen:
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Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 17, 2017 5:39 am

Yes, the new URSA Mini Pro may be a better camera for ENG functionality than the URSA Mini 4.6K EF camera, but this weekend I'll be putting the URSA Mini 4.6K B4 camera to an ENG-style 'test' of a sort with the dice loaded against me since my Fujinon Cine Zoom is completely manual (no servo) and relies on a matte box for filters (since I'm not about to buy 108mm circular filters... well not yet). Lord only knows how I'll manage zooming and focussing at the same time, but maybe it's magic. Blackmagic.


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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 17, 2017 4:53 pm

Just like you would on a Servo zoom, pull focus frame the shot then zoom. On,ymdifference is your left hand will be pulling the focus and zoom control. This would only be akward if you were used to using the right hand grip/servo zoom control setup, with left hand dedicated to pulling focus. Give it a go, and see what happens Rick. You could throw a Woden camera single or double,filter Zip Box for 4x5.65 filters on for a more compact setup. I used the 4x4 Zip on my Elite 9.5mm lens, works great. Good luck 8-)
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Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 18, 2017 3:57 am

rick.lang wrote:... Lord only knows how I'll manage zooming and focussing at the same time, but maybe it's magic. Blackmagic.


My girls are going to help with the focus. Should be interesting. Maybe not a good comparison to a single ENG operator , but without a servo on my lens, the girls may be a good solution. Memo to self: get a lens with servo focus and zoom.

Even the URSA Mini Pro would have the same problem with the Fujinon Cine Zoom. Now if I bought an URSA 4K for only $495, I'd only need one girl to focus and watch her own monitor on the non-operator side.


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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSun Mar 19, 2017 4:20 am

here's what I think, so don't take my word for it, but it might help us understand why we (Ursa Mini owners) don't get an upgrade.

URSA was supposedly a modular camera where you can upgrade different modules including the turret, but it seems that the turret upgrade still hasn't arrived so they're giving the URSA owners an alternative upgrade in place of the promised turret upgrade. They get to keep the camera and still on sale, so maybe in the near or far future turret upgrades eventually materialize (more Ks more fun!).

I've had the Ursa Mini 4.6k EF for quite a while already, and my 4.6k PL for about 6 months I guess, so I experienced pre-OS4.0 and back then I was really happy with it, I guess I was lucky enough that I did not experience those dreaded magenta corners, it did have fpn but only if I push it enough. Everything promised by Blackmagic on the camera specs of the Ursa mini was delivered (except for GS and GPS, but sensor read out was fast enough so I really don't mind the almost non existent rolling shutter).

Blackmagic listens to most of its customers and critics, a lot asked for internal nd, external power switch, etc etc and you got it (on the Pro model). A lot of people complained and whined about how long the UrsaMini arrived since its announcement and pre-selling, now they corrected it, they announced it and it's readily available.

come on, for the price of a Ursa Mini (non Pro) you get a lot already, of course I understand those who bought it accepting its short comings, and then suddenly a new camera with less compromise arrives. plus the non-pro looks cleaner for me. :)

If it's new or relatively new, then sell it and get the pro version, that sounds like an upgrade option to me, or just use it, earn with it and buy the pro model after a few months, and now you have two cameras. :)

I don't think I'll be able to afford a good cinema camera if Blackmagic did not come up with these cameras. :)
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSun Mar 19, 2017 3:03 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Michael, we were compairing the UM Pro to a Sony/Panasonic HD ENG camera, not the Sony FS7 etc, which can shoot at higher ISO settings -- But, they do not shoot Raw or low compression ProRes or high bit rate files either, where as the Broadcast ENG cameras shoot at higher MPeg4 bit rates (200MPS). The UM46 sensor will image quality will best the pants off the Sony and Oanasonic upstarts you mentioned.


Neither is really an upstart. Panasonic makes one of the few cameras that is getting slotted into shoots that would normally be shot on Arri and Red cameras, and it's succeeding in that arena without having internal raw recording. In fact, some DPs have been very happy using the internal codec because of Pansonic's color rendering.

Sony is dominating ENG right now though. FS5/7 are kicking it in that market.

Each camera has its place and meets the shooters specific needs, Yes, the UM 46 is not s low light or super fast to use camera, but it is an excellent Cine IQ type camera, giving a image that is easy to work with and get great results from when exposed properly. :mrgreen:
Cheers


I suspect that it does better in low light than most people believe it does... as evidenced by Robert Niessner's post and images...
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSun Mar 19, 2017 5:49 pm

Ramesh, My comment about "upstart Panasonic" was referring to Michael's comment on the Panasonic AG DVX 200, not Panasonic in general or the Varicam, which is a great camera, as are their top of the line ENG cameras. I still have my AF100A.

And yes, the Ursa Mini at ISO 800 is good in lower light situations, than many believe, if exposed correctly. :mrgreen:
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSun Mar 19, 2017 6:22 pm

I've thought carefully where the two URSA Mini design should go next:

URSA Mini Cinema & URSA Mini ENG should be the next model naming. I feel there are only a few things that should come from the Pro to the URSA Mini Cinema:

1) Interchangeable Lens Mount.
2) External Power Switch.
3) Internal NDs (I've convinced myself these are a benefit due to only needing to Purchase ND 0.3, 0.6, and 0.9 beyond what you get with internal ND).

The URSA Mini Cinema will retain the 5-inch touch screen display. Some of the external buttons can change now because you don't need them to function the same way they have. Still debating on how those changes should be, but I think that it should be 4 Function Buttons, since I don't use Iris or Focus with my manual lenses.

Overall, I think that the URSA Mini Cinema can be a simpler camera design. More attuned to what filmmakers need. The internal microphone and improved pre-amps from the Pro can make their way over for improved camera audio. This is beneficial when syncing to externally recording audio. The URSA Mini Pro can become the URSA Mini ENG.

So, that's where I've landed after some thought. Obviously what I want in both is Wi-Fi, especially in the Cinema. This way you can change settings and alter metadata from a phone or tablet. Beneficial for the DIT and AC's to change slate metadata without having to ask the camera operator to gain access to the camera.

So any and all other improvements can follow for both models. However, I think that there can be a benefit to the simple design of the Cinema version of the URSA Mini since it can keep the cost down. That's perfect for putting money where it needs to go: lenses.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSun Mar 19, 2017 6:24 pm

Hey guys!

Could we stay on topic?

We all have our preferences in ENG cams, experiences with buying equipemnt and stuff.
There are different topics already for these discussions.

I also don't understand some of the "these are completetly different cameras" "um46k is still a good camrea why u are not happy with it" "BM doesn't owe you anything" etc - Yes I got all of these on this forum or some other.

So we - um46k owners - here to ask for the same or almost the same upgrading options as the Ursa owners have.

I don't want to repeat myself or some other members and owners who already explained our point of view.

We just want to talk about it with someone competent.

Thanks ;)
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostWed Mar 22, 2017 5:52 pm

I saw that in Ursa mini pro description "The built in active refrigeration ensures maximum dynamic range and low noise so you get incredibly clean pictures with amazing detail in both the dark shadows and bright highlight areas.". In ursa mini 4.6K i dont see that description. It just marketing or is a real difference? "Clean pictures in dark shadows" mean that ursa mini pro have more clean pictures in low light situation at ISO 1600 compare to ursa mini 4.6?
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostWed Mar 22, 2017 6:10 pm

yeah I noticed that too...any info???
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostWed Mar 22, 2017 7:03 pm

Adorján Czakó wrote:
We just want to talk about it with someone competent.


...and the lack of that talk from anyone from BM speaks volumes about the total disinterest they seem to have for existing UM owners.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostWed Mar 22, 2017 7:13 pm

Michael Moore wrote:I saw that in Ursa mini pro description "The built in active refrigeration ensures maximum dynamic range and low noise so you get incredibly clean pictures with amazing detail in both the dark shadows and bright highlight areas."


I read that as "your shadows (in properly lit situations) will be relatively clean and noise free"... not that the camera is good in low light... though it is certainly better than my ol' BMCC.

Amazing how this thread keeps veering off topic.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 2:10 am

I do not know if there is an difference in the cooling system between the various UM 46 cameras, my guess is there the same. Someone from BM is going to have to answer this one, the rest is conjecture.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 2:51 am

Well, looks like the petition to BMD from the post at the beginning of this thread has slowed and is holding at 67 supporters.

The way I see it, *maybe* 30% of those folks will likely upgrade at the full price to the UMP or whatever BMD comes out with within the next year. If they were to extend the current upgrade offer to UM4.6 owners... or even just those that have had issues with their cameras beyond the firmware fixable stuff... probably 75% or more of those people on the petition list would jump on the offer. I know I would. Beyond the 10-month+ wait for most that pre-ordered and the various other well-documented issues, there were people that had to return cameras multiple times just to get one that was acceptable.

What did URSA owners have to suffer through? Waiting and waiting for a turret upgrade? Sure, that sucks... but they still have cameras that work properly. And those that didn't even buy the 4.6 upgrade get to take advantage of the offer too? I really don't get it.

I imagine BMD is still making some money with the discount offer. So, wouldn't it make more sense to get more cameras out there (that otherwise wouldn't be), make more people happier... creating brand evangelists that will tout how well the company has treated them... which would only further others to trust and buy into BMD?

Fingers crossed, still hoping that BMD extends a bit of goodwill. (Please?)
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Stephen Press

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 3:49 am

I can't sign the petition as apparently it violates New Zealands internet guidelines in some way, spoken to 3 others over here who would also like to have signed. So call it 71, plus however many more who can't sign it because of their country internet restrictions.
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Darko Djerich

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 10:26 am

chris.white wrote:Well, looks like the petition to BMD from the post at the beginning of this thread has slowed and is holding at 67 supporters.

The way I see it, *maybe* 30% of those folks will likely upgrade at the full price to the UMP or whatever BMD comes out with within the next year. If they were to extend the current upgrade offer to UM4.6 owners... or even just those that have had issues with their cameras beyond the firmware fixable stuff... probably 75% or more of those people on the petition list would jump on the offer. I know I would. Beyond the 10-month+ wait for most that pre-ordered and the various other well-documented issues, there were people that had to return cameras multiple times just to get one that was acceptable.

What did URSA owners have to suffer through? Waiting and waiting for a turret upgrade? Sure, that sucks... but they still have cameras that work properly. And those that didn't even buy the 4.6 upgrade get to take advantage of the offer too? I really don't get it.

I imagine BMD is still making some money with the discount offer. So, wouldn't it make more sense to get more cameras out there (that otherwise wouldn't be), make more people happier... creating brand evangelists that will tout how well the company has treated them... which would only further others to trust and buy into BMD?

Fingers crossed, still hoping that BMD extends a bit of goodwill. (Please?)
---
c



Truth is BMD has over delivered on both cameras.

URSA mini is great camera for the money and unimaginable cinema power for independent filmmaker.
URSA Pro is Rolls Royce of already great camera.

The only fault of BMD is as usual frank communication with us.
Example,even if i was now to buy URSA pro 2nd body, i am holding in case BM drops price for us mini owners in near future, it is expected but no confirmation or denial as yet.
Also if i was to sell my current mini, say loose $1k on it to get PRO same may happened mini owners may get discount so i would loose twice again.

What i am trying to say is also if we knew this was coming we wouldn't be here now.
Its hard to make decision in as much we like this camera based on BMD communications strategy ,in the end this is hurting their most loyal user baseline that other companies usually reward for example having purchased already many products in past, they do quiet the opposite punish them this way.

I don get it.

BM should do 2 things:
* reward their engineers and give them a pay rise for amazing work they did for their cinema cameras and software
* Fire their marketing team and sales strategists
* Fire QC camera team

This should sort lots of issues as a brand.
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Que Thompson

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 6:13 pm

BH is selling the Ursa Mini Pro and Ursa 4K as a "kit" for $6500

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... o_and.html
Last edited by Que Thompson on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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chris.white

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 6:26 pm

Que Thompson wrote:BH is selling the Ursa Mini Pro and Ursa 4K for $6500

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... o_and.html


Hmmm... interesting. The plot thickens.
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Adorján Czakó

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Darko Djerich wrote:Also if i was to sell my current mini, say loose $1k on it to get PRO same may happened mini owners may get discount so i would loose twice again.

What i am trying to say is also if we knew this was coming we wouldn't be here now.


Exactly!
We are stuck too because of a lack off communication :(
We are trying to trust them... but we feel can't.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 9:09 pm

Adorján Czakó wrote:
Darko Djerich wrote:Also if i was to sell my current mini, say loose $1k on it to get PRO same may happened mini owners may get discount so i would loose twice again.

What i am trying to say is also if we knew this was coming we wouldn't be here now.


Exactly!
We are stuck too because of a lack off communication :(
We are trying to trust them... but we feel can't.


lol, you bought the wrong camera silly head, lol... :lol:

but seriously.. if companies told you about all the new products coming down the line, you'd would never buy anything. let's say they told you about the ursa mini 4.6k Pro, then right before they started shipping they said that an ursa mini 6k will be released shortly.. then right before the ursa mini 6k is released they told you about the ursa mini 6k Pro that was coming.. then right before the ursa mini 6k pro is released they say oh we're releasing the ursa mini 8k soon... then the ursa mini 8k Pro... it will never end. i know guys that are shooting music videos for STARS on GH4's and A7SII's. Getting 60 million views. When is it time to say, I've got a good enough kit, now i will go create..
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 9:53 pm

chris.white wrote:
Que Thompson wrote:BH is selling the Ursa Mini Pro and Ursa 4K for $6500

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... o_and.html


Hmmm... interesting. The plot thickens.
---
c


Note that it is the PL mount Ursa 4K.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 10:10 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
chris.white wrote:
Que Thompson wrote:BH is selling the Ursa Mini Pro and Ursa 4K for $6500

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... o_and.html


Hmmm... interesting. The plot thickens.
---
c


Note that it is the PL mount Ursa 4K.



So they're essentially selling the Ursa 4k PL for $500? What the?
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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 3:56 am

Yes, just covers the cost differential of the PL mount versus the EF mount.


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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Did the petition get deleted? The link doesn't take you anywhere anymore....

And I just want to know why they're calling the discount they're giving to URSA owners a "loyalty" Upgrade.

I bought the BMCC when it came out, the BMPC4k when It came out, pre-ordered the UM46, waited a year, then went through 3 different cameras that had sensor issues over the next 7 months until I finally got a mostly-properly working camera. And somewhere in there I bought a Ursa Mini 4k as well.

But I guess I'm not loyal enough
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Darko Djerich

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 10:26 pm

Phillip Bergman wrote:Did the petition get deleted? The link doesn't take you anywhere anymore....

And I just want to know why they're calling the discount they're giving to URSA owners a "loyalty" Upgrade.

I bought the BMCC when it came out, the BMPC4k when It came out, pre-ordered the UM46, waited a year, then went through 3 different cameras that had sensor issues over the next 7 months until I finally got a mostly-properly working camera. And somewhere in there I bought a Ursa Mini 4k as well.

But I guess I'm not loyal enough



+ 1

Exactly my point, hard core fans and loyal members have been snubbed.
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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 2:02 pm

Phillip Bergman wrote:Did the petition get deleted? The link doesn't take you anywhere anymore....

And I just want to know why they're calling the discount they're giving to URSA owners a "loyalty" Upgrade.

I bought the BMCC when it came out, the BMPC4k when It came out, pre-ordered the UM46, waited a year, then went through 3 different cameras that had sensor issues over the next 7 months until I finally got a mostly-properly working camera. And somewhere in there I bought a Ursa Mini 4k as well.

But I guess I'm not loyal enough


Here you go...

https://www.change.org/p/blackmagic-design-ursa-mini-4-6k-to-ursa-mini-pro-upgrade?recruiter=691131527&utm_source=share_petition
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 3:02 pm

Darko Djerich wrote:Also if i was to sell my current mini, say loose $1k on it to get PRO same may happened mini owners may get discount so i would loose twice again.

What i am trying to say is also if we knew this was coming we wouldn't be here now.


Plot Twist!! in a month or so the Ursa non pro will drop 1K in price.. So what is your current mini's value on the 2nd hand market then ;) ;)

Yesterday they dropped 1K on the 12G 4K rackmount screens.. From 1995 to 995.. :o

Something similair happend to the 2,5K camera remember... ;) A lot of users were angry as they just bought the 2,5K and did not get compesated..

The pocket mini had a sale for 1 month were it was half price...

So be aware that this could happen to the old ursa mini's too.!!!
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 3:40 pm

Ah... a new monitor screen coming next month me thinks. :roll:
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John Paines

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 3:52 pm

So the Pocket people are aggravated/furious that BMD hasn't addressed the obvious deficiencies of the camera with a new low-cost model, going on years now, and the Ursa owners are furious that BMD addresses the deficiencies of the Ursa line too quickly.

You really can't win...
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Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 4:19 pm

Without any special incentive for owners of the old URSA Mini 4.6K cameras to upgrade to the UMP, I think many will just stand pat and use their UM46K for years to come if it suits their requirements. Your car is always a year old the moment you drive off the dealer's lot. You typically keep it for several years with its antiquated feature set.


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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 4:30 pm

What happened to including obsolescence into a business plan?

BMD products are priced very well for this to happen.
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chris.white

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Re: Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 4:37 pm

rick.lang wrote:Without any special incentive for owners of the old URSA Mini 4.6K cameras to upgrade to the UMP, I think many will just stand pat and use their UM46K for years to come if it suits their requirements.


Yup. That's pretty much what I was saying earlier. There will likely be some that will jump up to the um pro without incentive. However, it appears that there could be as many as 72 others so far that would be willing to hand BMD another ~$4.5k (assuming most people would be purchasing a shoulder kit, if not a different lens mount as well) to get a second camera if there was incentive.

That's $324,000 in sales that they're leaving on the table... and of course loads of goodwill that people would certainly cheer about.
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rick.lang

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Ursa Mini 4.6K to Pro Upgrade!?

PostSun Mar 26, 2017 5:21 am

Was the sole operator for today's event shoot on the BM46K B4 mount with the all manual Fujinon Cine Zoom. Without an assistant, I had no time to change IRND filters. Sunlight was changing every few minutes. I changed aperture. I had to zoom with my right hand on the Chrosziel Fluid Zoom, with my left hand change focus with the handle on the Cine Zoom, and use body English to pan and tilt the camera. The joys of an entirely manual cinema camera used for purposes ill-suited to its limitations. But you know I got some fine footage! And I look forward to doing it again.

Admit things would have been easier and better with built-in filters. With a electronically enabled Servo Zoom, with a hand free to grab the pan handle. But as my muscle memory improves with the tools I have, so will the results improve.

I don't recommend you follow my path. The URSA Mini Pro is more flexible and I recommend you take advantage of electronics in the EF and B4 mounts when you can. But other priorities mean I can't be chasing a replacement camera now and so haven't signed any petitions. I wish you all good luck with your initiative.


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