Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

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Clarence Williams

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Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 11:06 pm

I was wondering if BMD is going to produce a Blackmagic Design Production Camera with a 4.6 K or 5K sensor? I am well aware that BMD just released an Ursa mini pro. However I am partial to the Blackmagic Cinema and Production style camera. There's a lot of information on this forum so forgive me if this is a redundant question.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 6:23 am

No, not likely as the smaller form factor of the Production Camera (BMCC) precludes the added sensor cooling the 4.6K sensor requires. The Ursa Mini is about the smallest you are going to get the new sensor's in and allow for the required sensor cooling. You can look at look at the new Ursa Min Pro as the next generation "Production Camera"
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Clarence Williams

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 2:04 am

Hi, Denny, I hope your holiday season and the new year is off to a great start! I will be acquiring the older model 4K production camera. However, I see that there is an 8K workflow that is being promoted. Will there be an 8K camera coming soon? I know you cannot divulge too much but I'm just wondering before I invest in this camera.

Best

Clarence
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Jack Fairley

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 4:02 am

I would wait at least until the conference on Thursday before buying anything!

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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 4:03 am

There’s an enormous difference between a 4K and 8K camera. Especially when Blackmagic Design’s camera’s Support raw and ProRes. Let’s say BMD did that this April. Would many of us buy it? Would we be able to handle the workflow both in terms of post processing and storage?

5K and 6K May be less of a stretch. But I’m not sure BMD is chasing Ks like another manufacturer. They might be putting their energy into quality over quantity. Things like adding features like another stop of dynamic range to their cameras through sensor redesign or going 4K everywhere.

As for continuing with and promulgating the form factor of the BMCC and BMPC4K: unlikely.


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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 5:36 am

Why do people get so stuck on framerate and resolution????

It has always been about the technology as to how much heat is generated, or how good whatever resolution is. You can get pocket action cameras that can do enough data rate for broadcast in 4k, even film productions. They probably use 1 watt or less. So a pro head on larger sensor might use 2 watt or less 4k. My guess 4 watts 8k.

Maybe that 8k nokia camera phone was like a toaster all those years ago, or the iPhone X will melt the phone with minutes battery life? It is only the setup they use that does this, but for a production camera they don't have too. They can use low heat lower cost parts.

But the 4.6k, what is the heat profile of the sensor at 60fps? I know the previous camera was different (but there is a newer version of that sensor, and of the one in the production mini with more resolution). Don't be fooled by smoke.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 6:44 am

So, the following sensor from 2013 does 14 stop 14mp 80fps, 1.1gp/s at 1.1watts. So, it is nonsense all this anti-hype.

It has a newer type of the production mini's sensor. There is also a slightly older small sensor that does 18mp at 24fps. In 2008 or so, there was a small sensor in a casino camera that did 9.1mp at 60fps.
These common sorts of numbers that ambarella cheap chips ingress (but often don't compress at) ate used for down scaling and auto focus etc. But you somehow find a certain manufacturer does not have these rates in many of their small cheap sensors. It is about market control, and you guys are the ones being controlled.

http://cinescopophilia.com/aptina-14mp- ... -at-1080p/

But the 14 stops is not exactly usable due to how the bit depth and modes are divided up according to a discussion I have read.

I will have to get around to digging up some ambarella documents to show how completely rediculous all this not faster cheaper anti-hype is. These chips ingress raw real cheap, and low power, macroscopic, and the bigger ones compress 8k video in around 1 watt. To game it to 8kp60 high quality for TV feild production (600-1200mb/s h264) might require significantly more.

https://www.ambarella.com/news/91/122/A ... ng-Cameras

Appears that the information on Ambarella is harder to find in detail these days. However, this chip announced 2 years ago is doing 4kp60 in "under 2 watts". But it doesn't tell you what codec or at what data rate. However, this chip can do likeable numbers, but I don't know if that is what is included in that claim, enough to do 8k. The chip will do 4kp120 compression, which is equivalent to 8kp30. The previouse version would do 4kp60, equivalent to 8kp15 (like the GoPro 4kp15). There might have been a previous chip, I think, with similar capability. I unfortunately couldn't find figures for last year's official 8k chip. So, my figures would be off for 8k anyway. I know the encrease on encode watts would not be linear for 8k with the same datarate per unit of pixels. The rest of the chip's non compression parts takes up some, plus there are advancements and differences from any different chip process. So, 8 watts might be a better figure at quality. This with a good sensor is still not a high figure. But, looking at 4kp60 in the older chip, we are talking about upto 3.1 watts plus for compression and sensor. Currently the chip is in use. Looking at the lower power version of the older chip, it does 4k in 1 watt (but what does that mean concerning datarate etc)? BM could have done the best dash cam/Drone/action cam/camcorder/production camera head at a cheap price with these combinations. Raw Bayer, is not needed for video production. Raw 4:2:2 is. However, raw Bayer is probably doable, especially with a recorder. We are talking $500AU into all these markets by the hundreds of thousands. Certainly, news divisions could buy carton loads just to stick them in odd places. When the first Sony hdv prosumer camcorder turned up, they arrived by the truck full at one American network.

You are needlessly trying to dissuade people from the truth.

I'm sitting for real steel here.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 8:26 am

Last post updated.
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Stu Aitken

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 3:57 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Last post updated.


so blackmagic just stuck a huge cooling system in the UM and UMP for fun then?

I can't help think that all of this stuff is in actual fact much harder to make work in reality than you think it is...

there is also a huge difference in whats possible if your building millions of smartphones compared to a few thousand cameras
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 10:34 pm

Stu, maybe because the processing solution runs hot. A lot of cooling has to do with not only sensor choice, but also with the processing choice (and storage depending on what type).

These are commodity parts with commodity reference platforms for millions of units, designed by the parts suppliers, so a lot of work is already done, and you would have to tailor custom changes (extra connector, larger sensor mount, configuration of physical controls support and power, battery and bigger storage maybe. But that is not much compared to designing that reference design, and that is not much compared to the chipset.

There are probably thousands of devices designed on these chipsets, some with runs of thousands (less than the 10k plus production numbers which Red and BM would hope for). The easy thing is to say it's not possible.

You have got to understand the market. Just because a part is out there, Durant mean just any credible company is allowed to use it however. Now, BM likely has preferred suppliers, and just wants to do it their way. A lot of delays maybe waiting for their sensor, and their ASIC chips. But the past use of FPGA chips, which run many times hotter, and sensors that run many times hotter, produces hot cameras. There is no technological limitations, but there is others. If we look at the old Nokia with ultra HD like chips downscaled to fullhd, years back, we didn't see these issues.

Have a look at zcam. I imagine they don't have too many sales for their M4/3rds pov camera, that uses an older Sony with around 10 or so stops and a low datarate. Everytime I see people get hyped about this camera, you have to wonder. If the camera had used the latest chipset and sensor (even the Aptina sensors) it would be a great product, but now the market is moving up even more.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 10:50 pm

The sensor market has undertaken a lot of consolidation. A lot of companies have been bought up concentrating tech in fewer companies. The Aptina technology came from JPL, went through a company bought by Micron, spun out to form Aptina, bought by whoever, and lands up in on semiconductors. They also bought cypresses technology which includes fillfactory and I think smal sensor, the legendary HDR sensor company (I have one camera that uses it) that many years ago had a still sensor that could have been used for HDR 720p pro camera (but that old one would probably be hot at full rate).

So, there is concentration of a number of companies with interesting performance technology into a few pools. Even the company that is in the mini 4k apparently has better technology for custom orders.

The new Sony sensors (a great technology concentrator) used in their handycams are silky smooth. So, I imagine 16 stops+ before HDR video. So, that is ahead of the 4.6k.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostThu Feb 01, 2018 12:40 am

Clarence, I do not have any more insights into BM than you do, nor a magic ball I can look into.
That said, I do not think (but I could be wrong) BM is developing a 8K Camera, but is developing 8K workflow to support the higher data rate of larger sensor cameras being developed by others, and handle full 4K higher frame rates, and HDR video production.

Tomorrow will revel all!
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostThu Feb 01, 2018 11:36 am

Ok, after some searching at on semiconductor, the problem is evident. Sorry BM. There is only one 1inch sensor left it the previous Aptina catalogue, the 10.1mp, no 4/3rds. However, On Semiconductor also swallowed up Kodak sensors, and orhers, and they have 50mp sensor in a medium format and other larger ones. So, the types of Aptina sensor needed for market competition, seems to be no more.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostThu Feb 01, 2018 11:47 am

As for 8k, the market forces set the pace. If X cameras, simply have to be purchased as 8k, as 8k "has" to be supported, those are sales BM can get. This happens also because companies "have" to find ways to make more profit.

I'll tell you a truth. Say if man did not sit around a fire and tell a story, does that mean no man should sit around a fire and tell a story ever, not so much. When they used to paint in detail, did that mean no man should paint by expression, no! When men painted, but did not take photographs, does that mean no man should invent and take photographs, no! When pictures were stills, did that mean no man should shoot a motion picture, no! When no picture had color, did that mean no color should be used, no! When no picture had sound, did that mean there would not be pictures with sound, no! And it goes on.

If you listen to some, you will achieve very little, but if you listen to the right people, you will achieve much.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostThu Feb 01, 2018 5:27 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Clarence, I do not have any more insights into BM than you do, nor a magic ball I can look into.
That said, I do not think (but I could be wrong) BM is developing a 8K Camera, but is developing 8K workflow to support the higher data rate of larger sensor cameras being developed by others, and handle full 4K higher frame rates, and HDR video production.


I'm sure BMD will develop an 8K camera eventually, but right now it's kind of pointless for most productions. I'm USING an 8K camera, and mostly I'm using that excess resolution to extract print-quality stills. There's not much other need for it right now at the budget levels I'm working at. For film work, I'd be quite satisfied with 4K at the moment.

BMD is offering a $5K camera that delivers quality that can compete with my $35,000 camera's. I don't see why anyone should be complaining about that, except for the ones who mistook the Red badge for a talent button.

In post though... BMD is apparently aiming to dominate film post. And that means providing hardware to support what the big productions are doing, and ensuring that whatever they want to do, they CAN do in the BMD ecosystem. You want to shoot a film with 12 8K cameras and monitor the results on an 8K reference projector? Sure, you can do that with Resolve, all you have to add to your color grading station is this nifty new 8K DeckLink card and you're golden!

BMD is giving away Resolve + Fusion because it wants to sell that stuff. Lots of that stuff.

Tomorrow will revel all!
Cheers


I'm guessing not... BMD's product portfolio is pretty big, so this is probably only going to reveal one piece of it. There will I'm guessing be a few more conferences like this coming up as NAB gets closer.
Rakesh Malik
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostThu Feb 01, 2018 8:25 pm

Well, if you look at the Production Camera as a “broadcast orientated” camers, rather than a Cinema Camera, then yes, BM has a new replacement Camera, the Ursa Mini Broadcast, with a 1-inch sensor (same size as the Micro Studio 4K sensor). The new UM comes with B4 Mount, and uses the UM EF (woundered why you could get this mount separately when it came with the UM), Nikon and PL Mount.

Now we could use a Nikon and EF Speed Booster Mount to maximize the small sensor.
But at least the PL S16 lenses and zooms will work (Rick are yiu reading this?).
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rick.lang

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Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 2:49 am

Yes, I could just pop my Fujinon Cine Zoom B4 on there and go with a camera that would make a very good image out of the box when I’m shooting outdoor events. Then I would leave my PL glass on the URSA Mini 4.6K for everything else. Interesting but I’d like to see some sample 4K and HD clips from the new camera.

That price, by the way, so tempting!


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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 6:44 am

Yes, yes it is...
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 7:08 pm

Maybe I missed it, but I would have thought BMD would have provided some sample footage especially illustrating the extended video capture in ProRes. That has to be another very appealing feature of the camera. But in BMD’s defense, the camera is shipping, so congrats to the BMD team once again announcing a product ready to ship. I would think someone will be providing sample footage here well before NAB 2018.


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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 7:27 pm

I hope so. Who is going to be the first? :roll:
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagicdesign Production Camera 4K successor

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 10:57 pm

There is a mini zoom sample on the product page. Looks like my Aptina based pocket camera when I don't have the color turned up.

The camera is probably very much about tapping into the Mini P and Mini 4k parts and designs. So, it wouldn't be like previouse designs with new parts from scratch, and could be dine faster.

Now, I know that Sony previously used this or a better version of this sensor part. I suspect they might even still be using new versions. I would like to know which sensor part is in those new camcorders latter last year. It is strange that On has so few Aptina parts, and certain better sensors I've read about, are not there. What happens at companies, is they can get exclusive supply of parts, and they are not available to others.

This camera needs more colour and more latitude in the footage I've seen, and the price should be closer to $3k or $2k. 14 stops is a dead minimum, and more bits. 16.5 stops is better. It should do both cinema and broadcast in 4.6k 14 stop+ Aptina sensor, but that would affect mini pro sakes. It should however replace the 4k mini in both markets. It also should be made into smaller with more lattitude and bits, even if ProRes only. But it is Ok.

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