Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

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Mario Belamaric

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Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostFri Mar 17, 2017 10:32 pm

Hi guys!
I'm new here. Yesterday I managed to sell my Ursa Mini 4.6K at a very good price and get me new
Ursa Mini Pro. Great functionality updates on Pro version. However, I have a couple of questions for Pro owners.

I noticed horizontal lines on Ursa display when monitoring the shot in dark areas (I guess they can't be visible in bright situations). I didn't have the issue with my Ursa Mini 4.6K. The screen (display) was very clean! Those lines are not visible on footage but are visible when you are shooting in dark areas on Ursa's screen. Any similar experiences?

Second, it seems to me that FPN at iso 1600 is even more visible than on my Ursa Mini 4.6K. I thought they had it mostly fixed! Any thoughts?

And at the end, when setting focus peaking at "high" value I get a lot of red dots all around the display. Okay, stuff in focus is marked in red accordingly but why the red dots on areas that are not in focus at all. Also situation I didn't have with my previous Ursa! If I set it to "Medium" dots disappear!

Any thoughts?

Thanks!
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Nick Degn

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UMP - Rate my FPN (I need your help!)

PostFri Apr 07, 2017 12:12 pm

Hi all...

I just recieved my first Blackmagic product a week ago, the Ursa Mini Pro.
As many did, I chimed in on the Rainbow FLare issue thread and I have the same problem.
I then went on to test some other aspects of this camera, that I had been hearing people having issues with.
and to my surprise the camera had quite alot (IMHO) FPN in low light shots.
So i took some screenshots of the Prores files and linked them here.
If there is another test that shows this issue better let me know.

I live in denmark so sorry for my bad english :-)
Thanks in advance for your help!

Best Regards Nick

iso 800 lifted.PNG
ISO 800 Lifted
iso 800 lifted.PNG (923.06 KiB) Viewed 1262 times


iso 1600 lifted.PNG
ISO 1600 Lifted
iso 1600 lifted.PNG (1006.08 KiB) Viewed 1262 times
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David Chapman

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Re: UMP - Rate my FPN (I need your help!)

PostFri Apr 07, 2017 3:49 pm

Hi Nick,

You said "lifted", but by how much? What did the scene read vs what you shot? You will definitely see noise when you boost the shadows (by however many stops you did).
David Chapman
Just another creative dude with a camera.
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Nick Degn

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Re: UMP - Rate my FPN (I need your help!)

PostFri Apr 07, 2017 4:08 pm

About half a stop, the scene Was very underexposed.

I did a bunch of tests but i don't know of how to show the video files in here? Can i perhaps PM you a link to Dropbox with the test you can download?
Thanks for your Quick reply! :-)

Best Regards
Nick Degn
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Atte Heinonen

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Re: UMP - Rate my FPN (I need your help!)

PostSat Apr 08, 2017 7:31 am

Hi,

I was wondering the same thing when I got my UM46k.

Check false color. If it is purple / blue, there is nearly no detail in the those areas so it can't take lifting. Green is middle gray and pink is one stop over. Yellow is nearly burnt higlight and red is burnt.

I learned a tip in BMCuser.com. I don't remember from whom it was, but thanks for the tip.

The tip was something like this:

On a sunny day - native ISO800 to get the best dynamic range.

Indoor, sunset, etc, when there is not that much light available. - ISO400 drops noisefloor down and you get cleaner shadows.

If you are shooting at night when there is almost no light and most of the frame is heavily under exposed (easy to check -> false color purple or blue) Shoot ISO 400 or even 200 to drop the noisefloor as down as possible.

My own observations when shooting like this (IMO):

First do your tests!

Light your images on location if possible.

Yes, this tip might sound little bit nonsense. But think it this way: How much underexposed areas do you have in your image? Is your point of attraction underexposed? If there is very minimal amount of underexposed areas then priority is in highlights, native ISO800 for best dynamic range. If there is a lot of underexposed areas in your image or your target is underexposed, you want to clean your shadows and there lower ISOs make the trick.

With RAW you can make it! It is more forgiving. Depending on situation, raw can easily take 0,5-1,5 stops exposure lift with lower ISOs and not showing that digital diarrea in the shadows. You can change your ISO in Davinci Resolve.

With prores it is more crusial to shoot like this because there is not that much room to play with and you can't change your ISO in post if needed. So if there is fpn it is there unless you don't crush blacks and lose detail in the shadow areas. If you shoot lower ISOs you can leave your blacks and shadows little bit "milkier" and have more detail there if you desire that look.

You could always lift your highlights and areas where there are enough light, but leave shadows down.
Luminance separation is handy for this (you can do this in Resolve and Lumetri)
If you need more light in the shadows -> add light to the shadows on location.

If shooting lower ISOs think like you are just dropping your black level and shadows in camera and you start to build your contrast and image from shadows to light.

Do your tests.

These are mainly my opinions and observations based on my tests, use and the method I found.

I hope this helps. Have a nice weekend! :)
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Nick Degn

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostSun Apr 09, 2017 5:40 pm

I have the exact same issues as you do!
I thought it Was just the lcd wich Was bad quality but others have said they have a normal display. :-/ i also have crazy fpn, so i will return it after easter for a New one. Too bad My first experience with this brand is like this...
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostSun Apr 09, 2017 5:47 pm

Yeo, I'm waiting for a new unit from BM. Also returned the 1st one.
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Nick Degn

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostSun Apr 09, 2017 6:17 pm

I hope the next one is better, would you mind sharing your thoughts in here when you recieve it?
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostSun Apr 09, 2017 6:30 pm

Sure!
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Nate Porter

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostMon Apr 10, 2017 3:05 am

Did you do a black shade calibration? Every sensor is different and very sensitive and the calibration is to help reduce some fpn. Also when the focus peaking is set to high that means it will try to peak on more things. This sometimes causes the camera to think that the noise is 'in focus' you could set it to low. When on low less things 'peak' but it is more confident in those things that do peak.
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Alessandro Caporale

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Apr 11, 2017 12:43 pm

I found the very same issue.
Hard to understand why this happens; first time I switched on the camera, I noticed immediately a checkboard pattern on shadows, but nothing recorded on footage.
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Matt Sharp

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Apr 11, 2017 6:54 pm

I recently upgraded from the Mini 4.6k to the Pro.

I'm happy with most things, but mine has the same issues with what appears to be fixed pattern noise on the flip out monitor, but not in the recorded file. It also doesn't appear on an external monitor.

I'm disappointed that I can't trust the built in monitor anymore. Hopefully a firmware update could correct the issue, or maybe a heavy discount on the viewfinder is in order.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Apr 11, 2017 11:25 pm

Not normal, see Tim's comment in: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58109&p=334100#p334100
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 6:45 pm

Today I received a new unit. As I wrote I returned the 1st one because of lines on display at ISO 1600.
New unit has the same "problem". So, I guess it's the common thing with Ursa Pro. Also there is FPN very visible at ISO 1600. You know; I'm to tired to return this one and wait for the next one and then return that and wait for the next...I will live with it and hope BM do some firmware update and fix this. :roll:
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John Brawley

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 7:25 pm

I don't think BM did themselves any favours with the new screen.

It's very low contrast and this only makes FPN appear to be worse than it is. I found exactly the same thing when I first started using it. You'll notice FPN on the screen but in truth once you have it in the edit it's no problem.

Subjectively if anything, my UMP has slightly LESS FPN than the Ursa mini ive been shooting with over the last two years. But to eyeball on the screen it looks like a major problem.

The screen on the UMP is by far the biggest disappointment for me. I'm so used to the Video Assist 5" / Ursa Mini screen looking so great that a smaller low contrasts smeary new screen that makes things like FPN look worse doesn't feel like a step in the right direction.

JB
John Brawley
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 8:31 pm

I have a feeling that FPN was less noticeable on my UM4.6K......not much into pixel peeping but it seems so...
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John Brawley

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 8:38 pm

Mario Belamaric wrote:I have a feeling that FPN was less noticeable on my UM4.6K......not much into pixel peeping but it seems so...


Yes, but you mentioned "looking at it on the screen" which I assume means on the camera LCD screen.

Which as I mentioned, is misleading, at least in my experience now with two units.

JB
John Brawley
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 8:43 pm

I checked it on my Mac... it's there! :roll:
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John Brawley

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 8:54 pm

Mario Belamaric wrote:I checked it on my Mac... it's there! :roll:


OK, but in Resolve ? Looking at FILM ? RAW ? ProRes ? with a grade ? With no grade ? Can you post the original file ? That's the best way to take a look.

JB
John Brawley
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 9:04 pm

Prores HQ. Film profile of course. Even though FPN seems a bit lower in Resolve than in QT (ungraded).
Will post when find the time!
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VicHarris

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostThu Apr 13, 2017 2:08 am

John Brawley wrote:I don't think BM did themselves any favours with the new screen.

It's very low contrast and this only makes FPN appear to be worse than it is. I found exactly the same thing when I first started using it. You'll notice FPN on the screen but in truth once you have it in the edit it's no problem.

Subjectively if anything, my UMP has slightly LESS FPN than the Ursa mini ive been shooting with over the last two years. But to eyeball on the screen it looks like a major problem.

The screen on the UMP is by far the biggest disappointment for me. I'm so used to the Video Assist 5" / Ursa Mini screen looking so great that a smaller low contrasts smeary new screen that makes things like FPN look worse doesn't feel like a step in the right direction.

JB


They did not do themselves a favor with this new screen for sure. I feel like it's just another function input device and like you said, any real monitoring should be done via EVF or a higher grade external. I guess ya gotta give something to get something at this price though I can do without the free Squatty Potty Rainbow on all my images. :)
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Tim Schumann

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostThu Apr 13, 2017 5:30 am

We have an improvement we are working on for the horizontal and vertical lines in the 4" LCD that you are talking about. Just tested it here and it makes a big difference. This will be available in a forthcoming software update.
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VicHarris

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostThu Apr 13, 2017 5:49 am

Tim Schumann wrote:We have an improvement we are working on for the horizontal and vertical lines in the 4" LCD that you are talking about. Just tested it here and it makes a big difference. This will be available in a forthcoming software update.



I figured something like this is an easy firmware update fix/improvement based on the past.
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostThu Apr 13, 2017 6:08 am

That't great!!!!
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Nick Degn

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostThu Apr 13, 2017 1:30 pm

GREAT! Im part of a beta test, I couldn't tell, because of the full price i payed for the product... :roll:
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Uli Plank

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostFri Apr 14, 2017 6:57 am

Come on, it has been like this for years, and cameras from Red are much more expensive. Even Arri delivered quite a few fixes after sales.
If you don't like this, buy an old camera when the next one comes to market ;-)

Better a crappy monitor than artifacts recorded.

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