Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

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Mario Belamaric

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Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostFri Mar 17, 2017 10:32 pm

Hi guys!
I'm new here. Yesterday I managed to sell my Ursa Mini 4.6K at a very good price and get me new
Ursa Mini Pro. Great functionality updates on Pro version. However, I have a couple of questions for Pro owners.

I noticed horizontal lines on Ursa display when monitoring the shot in dark areas (I guess they can't be visible in bright situations). I didn't have the issue with my Ursa Mini 4.6K. The screen (display) was very clean! Those lines are not visible on footage but are visible when you are shooting in dark areas on Ursa's screen. Any similar experiences?

Second, it seems to me that FPN at iso 1600 is even more visible than on my Ursa Mini 4.6K. I thought they had it mostly fixed! Any thoughts?

And at the end, when setting focus peaking at "high" value I get a lot of red dots all around the display. Okay, stuff in focus is marked in red accordingly but why the red dots on areas that are not in focus at all. Also situation I didn't have with my previous Ursa! If I set it to "Medium" dots disappear!

Any thoughts?

Thanks!
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Nick Degn

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UMP - Rate my FPN (I need your help!)

PostFri Apr 07, 2017 12:12 pm

Hi all...

I just recieved my first Blackmagic product a week ago, the Ursa Mini Pro.
As many did, I chimed in on the Rainbow FLare issue thread and I have the same problem.
I then went on to test some other aspects of this camera, that I had been hearing people having issues with.
and to my surprise the camera had quite alot (IMHO) FPN in low light shots.
So i took some screenshots of the Prores files and linked them here.
If there is another test that shows this issue better let me know.

I live in denmark so sorry for my bad english :-)
Thanks in advance for your help!

Best Regards Nick

iso 800 lifted.PNG
ISO 800 Lifted
iso 800 lifted.PNG (923.06 KiB) Viewed 5396 times


iso 1600 lifted.PNG
ISO 1600 Lifted
iso 1600 lifted.PNG (1006.08 KiB) Viewed 5396 times
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David Chapman

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Re: UMP - Rate my FPN (I need your help!)

PostFri Apr 07, 2017 3:49 pm

Hi Nick,

You said "lifted", but by how much? What did the scene read vs what you shot? You will definitely see noise when you boost the shadows (by however many stops you did).
David Chapman
Just another creative dude with a camera.
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Nick Degn

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Re: UMP - Rate my FPN (I need your help!)

PostFri Apr 07, 2017 4:08 pm

About half a stop, the scene Was very underexposed.

I did a bunch of tests but i don't know of how to show the video files in here? Can i perhaps PM you a link to Dropbox with the test you can download?
Thanks for your Quick reply! :-)

Best Regards
Nick Degn
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Atte Heinonen

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Re: UMP - Rate my FPN (I need your help!)

PostSat Apr 08, 2017 7:31 am

Hi,

I was wondering the same thing when I got my UM46k.

Check false color. If it is purple / blue, there is nearly no detail in the those areas so it can't take lifting. Green is middle gray and pink is one stop over. Yellow is nearly burnt higlight and red is burnt.

I learned a tip in BMCuser.com. I don't remember from whom it was, but thanks for the tip.

The tip was something like this:

On a sunny day - native ISO800 to get the best dynamic range.

Indoor, sunset, etc, when there is not that much light available. - ISO400 drops noisefloor down and you get cleaner shadows.

If you are shooting at night when there is almost no light and most of the frame is heavily under exposed (easy to check -> false color purple or blue) Shoot ISO 400 or even 200 to drop the noisefloor as down as possible.

My own observations when shooting like this (IMO):

First do your tests!

Light your images on location if possible.

Yes, this tip might sound little bit nonsense. But think it this way: How much underexposed areas do you have in your image? Is your point of attraction underexposed? If there is very minimal amount of underexposed areas then priority is in highlights, native ISO800 for best dynamic range. If there is a lot of underexposed areas in your image or your target is underexposed, you want to clean your shadows and there lower ISOs make the trick.

With RAW you can make it! It is more forgiving. Depending on situation, raw can easily take 0,5-1,5 stops exposure lift with lower ISOs and not showing that digital diarrea in the shadows. You can change your ISO in Davinci Resolve.

With prores it is more crusial to shoot like this because there is not that much room to play with and you can't change your ISO in post if needed. So if there is fpn it is there unless you don't crush blacks and lose detail in the shadow areas. If you shoot lower ISOs you can leave your blacks and shadows little bit "milkier" and have more detail there if you desire that look.

You could always lift your highlights and areas where there are enough light, but leave shadows down.
Luminance separation is handy for this (you can do this in Resolve and Lumetri)
If you need more light in the shadows -> add light to the shadows on location.

If shooting lower ISOs think like you are just dropping your black level and shadows in camera and you start to build your contrast and image from shadows to light.

Do your tests.

These are mainly my opinions and observations based on my tests, use and the method I found.

I hope this helps. Have a nice weekend! :)
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Nick Degn

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostSun Apr 09, 2017 5:40 pm

I have the exact same issues as you do!
I thought it Was just the lcd wich Was bad quality but others have said they have a normal display. :-/ i also have crazy fpn, so i will return it after easter for a New one. Too bad My first experience with this brand is like this...
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostSun Apr 09, 2017 5:47 pm

Yeo, I'm waiting for a new unit from BM. Also returned the 1st one.
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Nick Degn

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostSun Apr 09, 2017 6:17 pm

I hope the next one is better, would you mind sharing your thoughts in here when you recieve it?
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostSun Apr 09, 2017 6:30 pm

Sure!
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Nate Porter

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostMon Apr 10, 2017 3:05 am

Did you do a black shade calibration? Every sensor is different and very sensitive and the calibration is to help reduce some fpn. Also when the focus peaking is set to high that means it will try to peak on more things. This sometimes causes the camera to think that the noise is 'in focus' you could set it to low. When on low less things 'peak' but it is more confident in those things that do peak.
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Alessandro Caporale

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Apr 11, 2017 12:43 pm

I found the very same issue.
Hard to understand why this happens; first time I switched on the camera, I noticed immediately a checkboard pattern on shadows, but nothing recorded on footage.
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Matt Sharp

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Apr 11, 2017 6:54 pm

I recently upgraded from the Mini 4.6k to the Pro.

I'm happy with most things, but mine has the same issues with what appears to be fixed pattern noise on the flip out monitor, but not in the recorded file. It also doesn't appear on an external monitor.

I'm disappointed that I can't trust the built in monitor anymore. Hopefully a firmware update could correct the issue, or maybe a heavy discount on the viewfinder is in order.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Apr 11, 2017 11:25 pm

Not normal, see Tim's comment in: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58109&p=334100#p334100
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 6:45 pm

Today I received a new unit. As I wrote I returned the 1st one because of lines on display at ISO 1600.
New unit has the same "problem". So, I guess it's the common thing with Ursa Pro. Also there is FPN very visible at ISO 1600. You know; I'm to tired to return this one and wait for the next one and then return that and wait for the next...I will live with it and hope BM do some firmware update and fix this. :roll:
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John Brawley

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 7:25 pm

I don't think BM did themselves any favours with the new screen.

It's very low contrast and this only makes FPN appear to be worse than it is. I found exactly the same thing when I first started using it. You'll notice FPN on the screen but in truth once you have it in the edit it's no problem.

Subjectively if anything, my UMP has slightly LESS FPN than the Ursa mini ive been shooting with over the last two years. But to eyeball on the screen it looks like a major problem.

The screen on the UMP is by far the biggest disappointment for me. I'm so used to the Video Assist 5" / Ursa Mini screen looking so great that a smaller low contrasts smeary new screen that makes things like FPN look worse doesn't feel like a step in the right direction.

JB
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 8:31 pm

I have a feeling that FPN was less noticeable on my UM4.6K......not much into pixel peeping but it seems so...
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John Brawley

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 8:38 pm

Mario Belamaric wrote:I have a feeling that FPN was less noticeable on my UM4.6K......not much into pixel peeping but it seems so...


Yes, but you mentioned "looking at it on the screen" which I assume means on the camera LCD screen.

Which as I mentioned, is misleading, at least in my experience now with two units.

JB
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 8:43 pm

I checked it on my Mac... it's there! :roll:
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John Brawley

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 8:54 pm

Mario Belamaric wrote:I checked it on my Mac... it's there! :roll:


OK, but in Resolve ? Looking at FILM ? RAW ? ProRes ? with a grade ? With no grade ? Can you post the original file ? That's the best way to take a look.

JB
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 9:04 pm

Prores HQ. Film profile of course. Even though FPN seems a bit lower in Resolve than in QT (ungraded).
Will post when find the time!
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostThu Apr 13, 2017 2:08 am

John Brawley wrote:I don't think BM did themselves any favours with the new screen.

It's very low contrast and this only makes FPN appear to be worse than it is. I found exactly the same thing when I first started using it. You'll notice FPN on the screen but in truth once you have it in the edit it's no problem.

Subjectively if anything, my UMP has slightly LESS FPN than the Ursa mini ive been shooting with over the last two years. But to eyeball on the screen it looks like a major problem.

The screen on the UMP is by far the biggest disappointment for me. I'm so used to the Video Assist 5" / Ursa Mini screen looking so great that a smaller low contrasts smeary new screen that makes things like FPN look worse doesn't feel like a step in the right direction.

JB


They did not do themselves a favor with this new screen for sure. I feel like it's just another function input device and like you said, any real monitoring should be done via EVF or a higher grade external. I guess ya gotta give something to get something at this price though I can do without the free Squatty Potty Rainbow on all my images. :)
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Tim Schumann

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostThu Apr 13, 2017 5:30 am

We have an improvement we are working on for the horizontal and vertical lines in the 4" LCD that you are talking about. Just tested it here and it makes a big difference. This will be available in a forthcoming software update.
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VicHarris

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostThu Apr 13, 2017 5:49 am

Tim Schumann wrote:We have an improvement we are working on for the horizontal and vertical lines in the 4" LCD that you are talking about. Just tested it here and it makes a big difference. This will be available in a forthcoming software update.



I figured something like this is an easy firmware update fix/improvement based on the past.
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostThu Apr 13, 2017 6:08 am

That't great!!!!
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Nick Degn

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostThu Apr 13, 2017 1:30 pm

GREAT! Im part of a beta test, I couldn't tell, because of the full price i payed for the product... :roll:
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Uli Plank

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostFri Apr 14, 2017 6:57 am

Come on, it has been like this for years, and cameras from Red are much more expensive. Even Arri delivered quite a few fixes after sales.
If you don't like this, buy an old camera when the next one comes to market ;-)

Better a crappy monitor than artifacts recorded.
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Hector Abaunza

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostMon Jun 05, 2017 6:26 am

Hi Guys,
I have also a very weird issue with my monitor!
I got my brand new URSA MINI PRO... first shooting day was great, second shooting day amazing... but when the third shooting day arrived... as I switched on the camera I noticed the LCD Screen was grey, I can see menus on top of the other slightly washed out, and the image is totally grey... I was shooting a paying job and It got me really upset, thankfully I have a BM Viewfinder that shows no problem with the image and the rushes came out grey.
I Buzzed Adorama where I got the camera from and they told me to send it and get a replacement BUT they have NO cameras available and they are clueless about when it will be on STOCK again... BIG Problem for us since we have gigs booked and we werent expecting to RENT cameras for them!

Wonder if anyone has the same issue? and is this a software problem? Do I need to call BM Support to get a replacement directly from them or what?

Can Anyone from BM Kindly tell me what to do?
Is there a way to reboot or reinstall the camera software and would that solve the problem?
Or shall I just send the camera to BM to get an immediate replacement?

Thanks
Hector
Attachments
image2.JPG
ISSUE WITH LCD SCREEN 2
image2.JPG (980.74 KiB) Viewed 3970 times
image1.JPG
ISSUE WITH LCD SCREEN 1
image1.JPG (944.42 KiB) Viewed 3970 times
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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostMon Jun 05, 2017 10:52 pm

I'd use the BM Viewfinder and only use the monitor for menu changes while you wait for stock to come into Adorama if that works for you.


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Tony Rivera

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostMon Jun 05, 2017 11:53 pm

Hector Abaunza wrote:Hi Guys...
Can Anyone from BM Kindly tell me what to do?
Is there a way to reboot or reinstall the camera software and would that solve the problem?
Or shall I just send the camera to BM to get an immediate replacement?

Thanks
Hector

Contact your regions support office and they'll be able to give you further guidance on this.
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Jun 06, 2017 7:19 am

Hi Tony!
Any news about firmware update for those horizontal lines on screen?
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Tim Schumann

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Jun 06, 2017 9:19 am

Imminent
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Jun 06, 2017 9:37 am

Cool! Thanks!
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Hector Abaunza

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostFri Jun 16, 2017 8:50 am

Hi Guys,
Really frustrated to be frank!
I got my first ursa mini pro 4.6K few weeks ago and I was very excited about it,
As the camera arrived all seemed to be flawless with it, as with the previous 2 models I had before (mini 4k and mini 4.6k)
But after 2 days of a tv commercial shoot, the flip-screen went nuts, blurry, I could see menus on top of menus as ghost images etc... thankfully the external monitors and the viewfinder well all OK and I could access the flip-screen monitor commands to format and stuff before we got a rented ARRI ALEXA to finish the job!
YES I had to rent a camera as we were too afraid the mini would let us down...

We sent the camera to get a replacement and today we got the new camera, believe it or not the flip-screen in this new one is not even working, its light grey with big black bars all over the place and yellow noise... (look at the reference pictures) How can that be possible its brand new and broken already.

Any Hints as Im sending the camera tomorrow to get a THIRD replacement and Im starting to regret spending 6k on this one!
Anyone has the same experiences regarding the flip-Screen? Any advice from blackmagic?

Thanks
Hector
IMG_9972.JPG
Defective Flip Screen
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Dara O'Neill

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostSat Jun 24, 2017 12:23 am

Hi Tim,

I see Camera 4.4 Update has been released but I didn't see any mention of these issues?

Best,
Dara
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Jun 27, 2017 6:01 pm

The horizontal lines on display are mosy fixed (still visible but less than before).
Can't say about the rest.
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Tim Schumann

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Jun 27, 2017 8:27 pm

Dara O'Neill wrote:I see Camera 4.4 Update has been released but I didn't see any mention of these issues?
Did you read the release notes?

• Fixed bug where scaling on 4” display caused monitoring image artefacts.
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Dara O'Neill

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Jun 27, 2017 8:49 pm

Tim Schumann wrote:• Fixed bug where scaling on 4” display caused monitoring image artefacts.


Good to hear, thanks Tim. I did read the release notes, hadn't heard the term scaling being used before relating to the issue. Glad to hear it's sorted.
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Dara O'Neill

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Jun 27, 2017 10:23 pm

Can anyone tell me if the FPN in the shadows here is to be expected or should I be returning my UMP? I seem to see FPN everywhere, no matter what I'm shooting.

I stabilized and calibrated the sensor before shoot. Did I underexpose? I find it hard to believe considering I was shooting in daylight...

FPN in dark cows_1.2.1.jpg
RAW, ISO 800, ND #4, ungraded
FPN in dark cows_1.2.1.jpg (901.14 KiB) Viewed 3273 times


FPN in dark cows_close up.jpg
Close up view of FPN
FPN in dark cows_close up.jpg (718.02 KiB) Viewed 3273 times
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Jun 27, 2017 10:47 pm

Dara O'Neill wrote:Did I underexpose? I find it hard to believe considering I was shooting in daylight...

It looks underexposed to me. The histogram shows most of the exposure in the lower quarter, and the absolute brightest white only at about 58%.

Daylight or otherwise is irrelevant if you're not letting the sensor collect enough of it.
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Dara O'Neill

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostTue Jun 27, 2017 11:21 pm

Thanks Earl, I'll just have to try and get used to ETTR I suppose. I just saw on another thread the idea of using a LUT when recording to counteract the ETTR. I'll try it for now.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 1:18 am

Dara, rethink that LUT as saving your shot. Use the histogram at a minimum, but give false colour a try. You may not need to ETTR but expose for your scene and try to keep skin consistent in the scene.


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Dara O'Neill

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 8:44 am

Thanks Rick, I got to grips with false colour this morning. However I'm a bit stumped as to how to shoot a scene with some dark areas in the corners and some very bright areas in the centre. Such as a bright window in a dark room.

IMG_20170628_093211949.jpg
Example of window in a bedroom.
IMG_20170628_093211949.jpg (630.95 KiB) Viewed 3250 times


So I have three choices - a blown out window, FPN in the shadows, or setup lights for all the dark areas and then darken them in post? I guess this is an extreme example but I just need the clarity on it. Thanks, Newb
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 10:16 am

Dara, even with all the dynamic range the UMP provides you have to help the sensor to get the scene contrast done. That has always been the case. Either light up the room or stop down the brightness from the window by using ND gels on the window.

As long as your highlights are not clipped it is possible to get a lot of the highlight details back in post by using power windows.
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Dara O'Neill

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 10:49 am

Hi Robert, thanks for this, this newbie is now going to go away and put all of this into practice.
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Dara O'Neill

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 11:10 am

Any ideas how this uploader managed to avoid FPN in these shots?



He says in the description "800 is super clean".

Do you think then he is lying about this? Then grading and down scaling to achieve these results?
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 11:55 am

Your cow example does not show FPN, just normal noise. All Blackmagic cameras have no built in noise reduction, while other camera manufacturer have like Sony or Canon.

The example from Daniel Peters is true, I get similar results with my UM46k. And yes, by downscaling you will hide some noise - it improves signal to noise ratio, that's nothing new.
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Dara O'Neill

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 12:17 pm

OK this is interesting, possibly the images I am sharing aren't revealing what I'm seeing or else I am using the term FPN incorrectly.

My issue is that I see what appear to be hundreds of thin vertical lines, when dark areas of the image pass across them they appear more strongly and sometimes turn blue, and when bright images pass over them they mostly disappear.

FPN in darks of cows_lifted.jpg
"FPN" lifted for clarity
FPN in darks of cows_lifted.jpg (867.38 KiB) Viewed 3200 times


If you don't experience those lines by candle light then I believe there must be an issue with my sensor. I will do an ISO 800 candle light test tonight and upload for you and you can see if you think it is normal or not, I appreciate you taking the time.
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Dara O'Neill

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 12:40 pm

Also at the 1 minute mark of this video he says he used ISO 1600 in this dark room without incident:



I don't believe ISO 1600 behaves the same on my UMP. On mine it creates "FPN" (hundreds of thin vertical lines overlayed on the image).
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 12:49 pm

Dara O'Neill wrote:OK this is interesting, possibly the images I am sharing aren't revealing what I'm seeing or else I am using the term FPN incorrectly.


By extremely increasing the shadows you will be able to show FPN on any camera. It is a limitation of sensor technology. I'll admit what others say, that Blackmagic could improve FPN a bit with further improvements with in-camera calibration.
But it is always better to carefully expose your image and give the sensor as much light as possible. Your cow example is very underexposed.

Dara O'Neill wrote:My issue is that I see what appear to be hundreds of thin vertical lines, when dark areas of the image pass across them they appear more strongly and sometimes turn blue, and when bright images pass over them they mostly disappear.


Yes that is one type of FPN. I get less of it when staying with 180° shutter and more when using 360°. I suppose the reason is that I did the calibration with 180° shutter.


Dara O'Neill wrote:If you don't experience those lines by candle light then I believe there must be an issue with my sensor. I will do an ISO 800 candle light test tonight and upload for you and you can see if you think it is normal or not, I appreciate you taking the time.


Yes please. I won't be able to look over it this evening as I am on a job, but will do tomorrow.
Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
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Mario Belamaric

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro FPN + Screen lines

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 12:58 pm

Looking at the cows I wouldn't say they are underexposed. They are black! It looks to me that blacks are lifted in those cows. Look at the grass around. It's almost overexposed.
In any case I see the point that he's trying to clear. There are times where FPN
shows in perfectly balanced shot (blacks are black but with fpn) and the only solution
is to crush the blacks to avoid that. But that's not always a good solution.
Considering candle test, I predict there will be FPN...a lot!
I love my UMP but to say they could do better with low light it's true.
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