Ursa mini pro is a ENG camera or not?

I open this new topic because on this topic https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=56865&start=100 many people tell that a discussion about ursa mini pro ENG capability is off topic.
So lets talk here just about ursa mini pro ENG capability!!! And please stay on topic!!!

In my opinion run and gun style for a ENG camera require to use a servo zoom B4 lens. What is most cheaper servo zoom lens that you know? And waht is the "T" factor for this cheaper B4 lens?
To use a T 4.4 lens or more with a just 800 ISO native sensor is not enough for ENG style. Many time in ENG style must to shoot in many interiors scene without can to control the light. What results can offer ursa mini pro if you must to stay in 800 ISO?

Michael, if you,want a true ENF camera purpose built with true low light capability, you need to get a 3-CCD (2/3rds) camera designed for the B4 lenses. Anything else is going to be a compromise, one way or another, and most like the Ursa Mini Pro will not be good low light performers.

That said, the UM Pro comes close, is useable pushed to ISO 1600 (but again no true analog video gain as in a real ENG camera) wi the latitude in the 4.6 sensor. But, you are still going to loose a 1/2 f/stop in the max Iris opening (a f/1.4 becomes a f/1.8 for example) reducing your low light performance somewhat.

Also, to use the B4 lens, you need to shoot in 2K or HD window and you are loosing half of the cameras resolution, or more. Where as a 2/3rds 3-CCD sensor is what the B4 lens was designed for. Using a B4 lens on a BM B4 mount or other adapter is yet another compromise in both quality and ease of use.
Also, not all B4 ENG zooms are equal, some are better than others, and have several different applications, like short wide zooms for news work, and longer zoom range lenses used in sports and event coverage. So, no one B4 lens is going to work for all situations either.

Where the UM and UM Pro shine, is their ability to use full S35 sensor resolution and S35 Servo Zoom lenses that cover the 4.6K sensor at least in 4K window, if not the full gate sensor, to get the extra resolution and still have an ENG-like camera setup, thst can be used for run and gun shooting Documentary situations. But even this way the UM will be more difficult to use (keeping a sharp focus for example) with fewer auto features than a real ENG camera would be. Otherwise Fox NBC and ABC would be buying Ursa Mini cameras for $6K, instead of Sony or Panasonic ENG cameras for $20K.

Any B4 servo zoom with enough resolution and speed won't come cheap. On the contrary, it'll be far more than the camera itself.
Beware of any zoom lenses that float around the bay made for SD cameras from the last millennium…

Given the current trend to shallow focus imagery, the UM46P is a very interesting option for some fields of documentary with a S-35 zoom, and these tend to get more affordable nowadays, even from big names like Angenieux or Zeiss (by alphabetical order, not to start wars, grin).

But if you want fast run-and-gun operation, get a camera with a smaller sensor with UHD resolution, since HD soon won't sell any more.

Any B4 servo zoom with enough resolution and speed won't come cheap. On the contrary, it'll be far more than the camera itself.

Many people here are very enthusiastic because with ursa mini pro can change from EF mount to PL mount or B4 mount. In this case what is the utility in real life for ENG style if the lens cost so much?

Michael, if you,want a true ENF camera purpose built with true low light capability, you need to get a 3-CCD (2/3rds) camera designed for the B4 lenses. Anything else is going to be a compromise, one way or another, and most like the Ursa Mini Pro will not be good low light performers.

This. Period! The UMP is NOT an ENG camera. It's an attempt to market as one but no cigar.

I do not think it is even an attempt to market it as a ENG camera either, while the UM Pro is a Hybrid camera, it is still a Cinema camera first, with ENG-like formfactor to make it easier to use for should mount config shots. The B4 mount, allows for more lens options, but the PL mount is the real heart of this camera.

Yes Michael, good lenses often cost more than the less expensive "toss out" cameras we have today. But as previously mentioned, good PL zooms are coming down in price. Even good ENF 2/3rds B4 lenses are not cheap, but cost less used than the more expensive PL Servo zoom lenses, which is the appeal here.
Cheers

I totally disagree. I think the Pro with B4 mount would make an excellent ENG camera. I'm using my UM with B4 mount as an ENG camera at the moment and even without the ND filters and outside switching it does a great job of it.
I'd be happy to help promote and market the Pro as an ENG solution if MB would send me one

According to the PCAM app (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pcam-fi ... 56485?mt=8) it looks like 2K & HD Window Mode on the 4.6K is slightly bigger than a ⅔-inch sensor.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tim Schumann]

Which is one of the reasons why there are optics in our B4 mount.

Yes Kim, not off topic at all, another Servo zoom lens choice for the EF mount.
Tim, as Mr Schumann pointed out, the BM B4 mount (both models) has a corrective optical block that also expands the image by 1.4X to allow the 2/3rds B4 lens to cover the 2K sensor, even though this is a little larger than the 2/3rds sensor (kind of opposite of a Speed Booster) which also causes about a 1/2'stop light loss in the mount.

I did not say the UM Pro couldn't be used like a ENG camera, and in many ways it can. What I did say, is the UM Pro is not as easy or quick to use in run and gun situations as a real ENG camera is, which has more automated functions to Assist in quick response to fast changing shooting situations. Also, the UM Pro has a rolling shutter (an excelent one at that with fast sensor readout times in window mode to help), but it is not as good with fast moving action as the GS on a true 3-CCD ENG camera. They are two different cameras built for two different primary applications, with some overlap.
Cheers

Minor correction to the BMB4 optical mount at least on the original URSA Mini 4.6K PL camera. The B4 expands the image about 1.1x so the light loss is well under a third of a stop. Some B4 HD lenses have larger image circles like my Fujinon Cine Zoom so you can shoot in glorious 2K 16:9 without vignetting at any focal length. Just tested this again this morning to be sure on the URSA Mini 4.6K but I'm sure that applies to the URSA Mini Pro too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tim, can you add the 2K 16:9 frame to your pCam graphic? Would be interesting to see. Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Denny I've been shooting ENG for over 30 years now and I've yet to find an auto feature that is as fast as me in manual
As for movement, I've just been shooting cricket, 50fps and 1080i out of the SDI... it looks great.
Far as I'm concerned the Pro would be a better ENG camera than most of the current crop of "ENG" cameras that are twice the price. I mean have you used a Panasonic AJ-PX5000G? Its a hot mess and about as much fun to use as hair removal cream on your nuts.

Tim, can you add the 2K 16:9 frame to your pCam graphic? Would be interesting to see. Thanks.

Sure thing Rick!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Perfect, Tim. Those two graphics visually illustrate the differences in the sensor diagonal. HD is indeed 1.1x the ⅔" sensor and 2K is about 1.178x the ⅔" sensor. That lets me calculate the true 'crop factor' when using the focal expander: 3.75x compared to 135 film for the HD crop, but if your B4 lens will let you cover 2K, then the crop is about 3.5x. I don't think I have published those same numbers before, so ignore any previous posts from me for those crops. 3.75x when you shoot HD with the BMB4 mount and 3.5x if you can manage 2K 16:9.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Stephen I agree, we both after years of practice/experience, can outshoot most any camera auto feature, perhaps save a really fast continuous AF (The only really fast one was on a Nikon V1/3 camera). And no doubt you can outshoot me also. BTW, I wouldn't touch the Panny ENG camera you mentioned either, I shot with mostly with Sony ENG cameras also, from BetaCam to DVCam. I was referring to the less experienced "wedding event type" of shooters, who "grew up" using cameras that set their exposure for them, did the focus (auto focus) and all they did was point and shoot! You, Tom and other experienced news shooters are the exception around here with extensive ENG/ Event Documentary shooting experience.

In your hands, the Ursa Pro would shine like the star it is. The main advantage I see in a 3-CCD over a large sensor camera for more inexperienced shooters, is the added DOF for easier focus pulls, and the GS to handle the fast pans and eliminate RS artifacts for these less experienced or former DSLR shooters.

We have basically three types of shooters here, new to video or former DSLR users, Cine DOPs and Cinematography students or ENG/Documentary shooters. For me Cinemmatography is like a View Camera photographer, every shot us carefully planned, lit, rehearsed and finally shot, with multiple takes. Whereas on the other side, Event/Documentaty shooting is like a News photographer, quick in the draw, makes every shot count, and useually only has one take or chance to get the shot. Both have much different camera requirements to get the job done. To me the UM Pro is a hybrid or bridge camera, with its feet in both types of shooting, and has compromises in order to be able to work in both types of shooting. Is IR an ARRI Cinema camera? No. Is it a Sony 3-CCD ENG camera? Again no. But, it is a a little bit of both, and can function in nothing worlds with an experienced videographer or cinematographer.
Cheers

Now I feel like a dick for the "I've been shooting ENG for over 30 years now" comment.
I guess you are right that the Pro wouldn't be a good ENG camera for everyone but an experienced ENG shooter would have a very shallow learning curve to get up to speed on one.
One of the best things with the UM and the Pro is the presets. You can set them up beforehand and with the press of the screen you have the right settings for the right shoot. I love that.
The main issue some seem to have is the low light but I used to shoot News for ITN on a Sony 200SP and compared to that the UM has the eyes of a cat. If I could do news in all conditions with that half blind Sony then I'm not going to have any problems with the Pro.
The day Princess Diana died I was sent up to Balmoral Castle to cover the Royal family. That night I was by the front drive to get a shot of Prince Charles coming back from Paris. It was too dark for the Sony and the security were being unreasonable about shining lights on the road, so I moved my white edit van to the fence line so when the Princes car showed up the headlights bounced enough light back for me to get a shot of the Prince. Got the shot but I would have killed for as much low light capability as the UM has today. I guess what I'm saying is low light is relative and the UM is more than enough for most ENG situations.
I'd say the Pro with a B4 mount is a good ENG camera and I think I would even prefer it to the latest Sony 3CCD camera... if only I could get a Pro

Good point about how today's cameras work better in low light than the 70-80s cameras did. That is why we had those little Quartz lights on the camera's back then!
Anyway, do not worry about the shooting experience comment, you are fine, how else are we to know each other's experience, other than guessing based on the comments we leave.

Regarding low light performance, my comment was based on that Cinema type cameras today, tend to need more light than some of the new cameras aimed at run and gun type shooting, the the former DSLR shooters expecting the Ursa Mini cmsrss to have the same "low light" capabilities as their former DSLRs at high ISOs. Other cameras increase gain with analog boosting of the signal level, whi,e Cine cameras like the Ursa Mini to not, they are basically a ISO 800 camera, which I would also,have "killed" for in the 80s.
So as you pointed out, it is all relevant to our previous experiences.
Cheers my friend!

Could give me few example about PL lens or B4 lens with servo zoom with a good "T" light transmission at reasonable price who can could be a good kit with ursa mini pro at 800 ISO for ENG style? Maybe could you give me few links with this lens?

Michael, a good used HD servo B4 lens is going to cost from $1600 to $6K, depending on the lens. Most are f1.8 to f/2.0, and are fast enough for normal documentary shooting. A PL zoom is going to set you back $9K to $20K. You get what you pay for with Pro zoom lenses, and additional features like a zoom servo on PL lenses cost even more.
Cheers

My Fujinon Cine Zoom was at the low end of Denny's estimated costs, but that doesn't include a servo zoom. I think $2,500 is a more likely starting point for a lens with servo zoom in very good condition (like mine). EBay will have several for sale on any given week. The price range is wide, but that's just sellers that don't care if it sells or not. As always look for a motivated buyer that really wants to sell and if the price is decent, Buy Now.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Correct Rick, I only found one lens at $1600, the rest were $2500-6K. Today, a Cine zoom like your's Rick, is $2500 and up, in eBay. You got a very good deal at any rate.

If you want a good B4 zoom, at a price below $2K, better get one now, because with the release of the UM Pro, the price is going to double very quickly, as demand increases in this limited market.

The same thing happened to S16mm lenses, which were very inexpensive for premium glass, yiumcould get a Zeiss Super Speed for under $500. Today, after the release of the Pocket camera and BMCC MFT camera, the same lens is $1200-1800

Act quickly, the price is only going to go up, not down. That said, what you do not want is a former news ENG lens that had been through 10-years of hard use either.
Cheers

There was a test about 5 years ago that I can't seem to find where they tested ten Fujinon AT2 series SD lenses and found many of them equaled or out performed the then current budget HD lenses.
I bought a Fujinon AT2 A10x4.8BDERM-M28 (like this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/172416601356 I don't know anything about this particular lens.)
But only because I knew it and had used it and was able to get a tech to test it. He was surprised at how good it was, well within HD spec, even with 2x extender in.
There are good deals to be had out there but be careful

When I bought my HD lens, I was advised to stay away from the SD lenses, but if someone vouches for the quality, that counts for a lot. The buyer describes the lens in the ad, but all sales are final "as is." I personally wouldn't buy under those conditions as you want someone to stand behind their sale. Unfortunately eBay lets the seller hold all the cards, you don't know who you are dealing with and don't message them directly until your offer is accepted as I understand my experience. I had several email exchanges about the items I bought before they were shipped to me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You can ask a seller questions via eBay (under the Seller's ID) about an item enforce buying, I do this all the time, and wait for a response from the seller. No response, I move on, if it is a scam/fraud listing, eBay security will catch it when the message to the seller is sent. Then you get a warning message from eBay if it is a scam.
Cheers

Could you put here few links with PL and B4 fast lens that work great with ursa mini pro in ENG style? In Window mode for B4 lens we loose the dynamic range or just sensor surface?

Same dynamic range, but in 2K or HD window of the sensor.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Same dynamic range, but in 2K or HD window of the sensor.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Rick, what is your PL lens model? Cover it the 4.6K sensor circle?Is a parfocal lens?

Michael, I have the Fujinon HA20x7.8B M10 T2.4/2.6 B4 mount HD 2/3" Cine Zoom. The Cine Zoom is supposed to have superior optics but doesn't have a servo zoom control. It has handles you screw in to control focus and zoom. My seller couldn't find the long handle, but the short handle works very well for focus and the Chrosziel Fluid Zoom Control is wonderful to use zooming. I think it has advantages over a traditional cinematography follow focus for a sole operator and you can easily adjust the tension on the fluid zoom to suit your tastes.

The zoom is parfocal from 156mm to 7.8mm and back to 156mm.

Breathing well controlled.

It focuses beyond infinity, which is a good thing when you have large variations in ambient temperature. If has a back focus adjustment, but there is no 2x extender. Given the maximum focal length is 156mm and the crop factor on the URSA Mini 4.6K is 3.5x, I could rarely use the 2x extender outdoors and still get a decent picture anyway tracking motion.

Outside dimension is 110mm and I have an adapter for the standard 114mm clamp opening on the Misfit Atom so no light leaks. Screw-on filter thread is 108mm I believe, but I only use matte box filters with the Fujinon.

The image circle is my favourite bonus feature. I bought the lens to use with the BMB4 optical mount 1.1x focal expander which would let me record in an HD window. However I discovered I have perfect coverage of the 2K 16:9 window so I never shoot HD for a client.

Having the larger image circle has been a blessing to either increase my AOV or stabilize HD deliverables. I contacted Fujinon Japan and Canada and the US to determine the official image circle, no one could tell me. Fujinon US I believe is creating digital archives of all their old lens brochures, but they hadn't gone as far back as my lens and couldn't help me. It really doesn't matter since I know I have the coverage I need. Other Fujinon lenses that are not Cine Zoom may not cover 2K though. Unfortunately, you may not know until you buy. If you're considering a lens and know the image circle, I can tell you if it will cover 2K on the 4.6K sensor.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Michael, all of the S16 PL mount Cine zooms will also fill the 2K window, but agin, these are not servo zooms. The newer Angenieux HP series are excellent, as are the Optimo series which will cover the 4K window. But these newer zooms are $9K to $18K used. You are not limited to only B4 ENG zooms, look around my friend.
Cheers

Somebody here use the ursa mini Pro in run and gun style? Can put here few short movies make it in ENG style?Can tell me few impression about this?

Somebody here use the ursa mini Pro in run and gun style? Can put here few short movies make it in ENG style?Can tell me few impression about this?

Brian Hallett is now using a UMP4.6K for broadcast ENG news & special features (previously he used a UM4.6K and other BMD cameras). Article here, and read the comments, too.:
https://www.provideocoalition.com/black ... ro-review/