Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

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Will Vazquez

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Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Mar 30, 2017 7:47 pm

There is a rainbow flare artifact that myself and other Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k owners have experienced. It appears to be caused by internal reflections of the built-in ND filters. This has the possibility to ruin a shot and it appears to pop up in almost all my shots that I used the ND6. I'm really worried about the usability of the camera now. Below is a link for a test I did.

And here are examples that other users have posted.



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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Mar 30, 2017 9:15 pm

Will, there is no ND6, did you mean with 6 stops of filtration, you are seeing an internal flare? Did using a matte box make any difference?


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Will Vazquez

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Mar 30, 2017 9:23 pm

[quote="rick.lang"]Will, there is no ND6, did you mean with 6 stops of filtration, you are seeing an internal flare? Did using a matte box make any difference?

Hey Rick, yes, as I stated in my test, I did use a mattebox and this is not a mattebox problem. Also, I used the ND4 which is the 6 stop ND, that's what I meant.

I returned my camera today. I have spent the last year with my old 4.6k going back and forth to BM for image improvement to clean up the crosshatching and FPN twoce. And BM the last time says it's normal and that's that. Now the new camera has pretty well controlled FPN, and barely there, but it has this flare issue with the built-in ND, which is the main reason I bought the camera. So i can't deal with a bad camera and have to eat it, so I will wait for them to fix the problem. I'm not the only one with the issue.
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Nick Gombinsky

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Mar 30, 2017 9:43 pm

rick.lang wrote:Will, there is no ND6, did you mean with 6 stops of filtration, you are seeing an internal flare? Did using a matte box make any difference?


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ND6 might mean 2-stop filtration, the first ND filter the camera has, as it would be ND 0.6, or ND6 for short.
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Nick Gombinsky

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Mar 30, 2017 9:55 pm

Well, for some reason I didn't see Will's latest reply which proves me wrong.

I guess I'm the only one around here who refers to a 2-stop ND as an ND6...
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Mar 30, 2017 10:11 pm

Thank you for flagging this Will. Please report back with the response you get from BMD support about it.

Pretty shocking how present that flare is. Seems BMD doesn't test anything before they ship it out.
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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 12:26 am

Will Vazquez wrote:Hey Rick, yes, as I stated in my test, I did use a mattebox and this is not a mattebox problem...


Sorry, I saw no reference to a matte box and all videos posted have no sound.

Regardless, you have confirmed the problem is not related to the matte box leaking light. My thinking was using the matte box may have prevented any errant light from striking the 6 stop IRND. Strange if the other IRND filters don't exhibit any similar flare. Needs investigation.


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Tim Schumann

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 12:59 am

Will Vazquez wrote:There is a rainbow flare artifact that myself and other Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k owners have experienced. It appears to be caused by internal reflections of the built-in ND filters.


We are looking into this with priority Will and hope to have a solution for you soon.
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Douglas Sullivan

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 1:14 am

Mine has this issue as well, from the 2 minutes of quick experience I had with it. What's with the last video? It looks like you're flipping from one ND to the next, and the rainbow flare appears on both (though worse on the stronger filter). Do you get this problem with more than one of the NDs?


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Will Vazquez

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 1:41 am

rick.lang wrote:
Will Vazquez wrote:Hey Rick, yes, as I stated in my test, I did use a mattebox and this is not a mattebox problem...


Sorry, I saw no reference to a matte box and all videos posted have no sound.



Hey Rick, sorry about not being clear. I thought I had posted about it not being corrected with a mattebox in the post, and I actually wrote it in the Vimeo Video.

It doesn't appear to happen with the clear, but it happens a little wit the ND #2 setting, and then get's worse with each stronger ND filter on the wheel. Anyway, I''m unable to do anymore tests because I returned the camera. If and when BMD offers a solution or fixes it, I will buy new camera, but since my camera was only a week old, I didn't want to deal with it. I hope they fix it. I didn't even report it to support, but now it appears they are onto it by reading they're reply to this thread.

It's a shame that this flare problem exists, as I believe the new camera is lovely, and seem to give slightly cleaner/neutral color, and definitely, the FPN that showed up in some earlier original 4.6k cameras, is not really a problem anymore.
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Benton Collins

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 5:18 am

This is very disheartening to see! I admit I was lusting after the built in NDs in the PRO, but now I'm holding on tighter than ever to my vintage UM4.6! (Especially after battling the magenta issue through three cameras) I feel this is going to be a difficult fix for BMD, even more than the magenta issue was. But I'll keep my fingers crossed for them!
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Scott Pultz

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 6:06 am

Does everybody have this issue? Looks like it will need a hardware fix. The main draw for me and the Pro is the ND filters.
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Willem Timmersma

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 9:46 am

Just pointed it a window. I can replicate that same sort of flare on my ursa, though I also see it in clear mode? Been using it for a full week now, and haven't ran into any problems so far. Just love it!

Could this be eliminated by just a slight tilted ND filter like bright tangerine does with the misfit atom mattebox?
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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 4:33 pm

My bad Will! When I go to Vimeo, I immediately expand to full screen view to play the video. I must get in the habit of reading the comments!

I am confounded that not a single blogging reviewer including several of the respectable sites like NewsShooter and Cinema5D have reported this issue. It may be related to a few cameras and not all cameras to give the bloggers the benefit of the doubt.

https://www.cinema5d.com/blackmagic-urs ... pressions/



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Nick Gombinsky

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 4:36 pm

rick.lang wrote:My bad Will! When I go to Vimeo, I immediately expand to full screen view to play the video. I must get in the habit of reading the comments!

I am confounded that not a single blogging reviewer including several of the respectable sites like NewsShooter and Cinema5D have reported this issue. It may be related to a few cameras and not all cameras to give the bloggers the benefit of the doubt.

https://www.cinema5d.com/blackmagic-urs ... pressions/



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As time went by I started to notice that bloggers and reviewers don't really shoot stuff.
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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 4:41 pm

Tim Schumann wrote:... We are looking into this with priority Will and hope to have a solution for you soon.


Although I don't have the URSA Mini Pro, I sure want BMD to be very successful with the launch of this new design.

We in BC Canada have a lot of experience with forest fires started by a single lightning strike. Bad news travels faster than wildfire so even though there's only a small blaze, launch the water tanker and knock it down!


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Balkan Tekelioglu

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URSA MINI PRO ND filter problem ?

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Hi,
My firts message here,;)
cause I intend to buy the ursa mini pro;)
Someone saw this?

seems to be a reel problem..
Do you have the same problems with this camera?
Thank a lot,
cheers
ec
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Tim Schumann

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 7:57 pm

We have worked out a solution for this and are rolling it out.
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Nigel Daniels

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 8:52 pm

Tim Schumann wrote:We have worked out a solution for this and are rolling it out.


Hi Tim, will this solution necessitate sending the camera back for repair? Thanks.
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Simon Still

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 9:31 pm

Some Sony F55s have a similar internal reflection issue and it's something you have to look out for when shooting with an F55.

I've been testing the UMP for a few days and the flare seems to be most prevalent around 35mm (the degree of flare appears to be focal length dependent). The flare is only triggered in specific lighting situations so it's quite easy to miss. Masking/flagging just above the frame line removes the flare, but a lens hood or matte box alone is insufficient.

The amount of flare remains ~constant at all ND wheel positions which I think indicates the problem is light leak around the edge of the filters. If so, the solution is probably going to be pretty simple. I should think BMD will just add a mask to fully cut the light passing around the filters. Of course it would have been better to do this before release, however, if a company like Sony can screw this up on one of their flagship cameras I don't think we can be too hard on BMD.

And to end on a positive note – I've absolutely loved working with the UMP, and it will be the first BMD camera I own and use as an A cam. [and, no, I'm not sponsored by BMD!!]
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Armen Amirkh

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Re: URSA MINI PRO ND filter problem ?

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 9:49 pm

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Tim Schumann

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 9:54 pm

Nigel Daniels wrote:
Tim Schumann wrote:We have worked out a solution for this and are rolling it out.
Hi Tim, will this solution necessitate sending the camera back for repair? Thanks.

Hopefully not. It is a fairly simple procedure but we need to confirm a few things.

We will have more details for you soon.
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Tim Schumann

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 10:50 pm

Simon Still wrote:Some Sony F55s have a similar internal reflection issue and it's something you have to look out for when shooting with an F55.

I've been testing the UMP for a few days and the flare seems to be most prevalent around 35mm (the degree of flare appears to be focal length dependent). The flare is only triggered in specific lighting situations so it's quite easy to miss. Masking/flagging just above the frame line removes the flare, but a lens hood or matte box alone is insufficient.

The amount of flare remains ~constant at all ND wheel positions which I think indicates the problem is light leak around the edge of the filters. If so, the solution is probably going to be pretty simple. I should think BMD will just add a mask to fully cut the light passing around the filters. Of course it would have been better to do this before release, however, if a company like Sony can screw this up on one of their flagship cameras I don't think we can be too hard on BMD.

And to end on a positive note – I've absolutely loved working with the UMP, and it will be the first BMD camera I own and use as an A cam. [and, no, I'm not sponsored by BMD!!]


Thanks for the positive words Simon.

We are working really, really hard to create an amazing camera at a reasonable price point. We are very proud of what our cameras do and are continuing to improve them all the time.
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Guy Fiorita

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 11:18 pm

Simon Still wrote:Some Sony F55s have a similar internal reflection issue and it's something you have to look out for when shooting with an F55.

I've been testing the UMP for a few days and the flare seems to be most prevalent around 35mm (the degree of flare appears to be focal length dependent). The flare is only triggered in specific lighting situations so it's quite easy to miss. Masking/flagging just above the frame line removes the flare, but a lens hood or matte box alone is insufficient.

The amount of flare remains ~constant at all ND wheel positions which I think indicates the problem is light leak around the edge of the filters. If so, the solution is probably going to be pretty simple. I should think BMD will just add a mask to fully cut the light passing around the filters. Of course it would have been better to do this before release, however, if a company like Sony can screw this up on one of their flagship cameras I don't think we can be too hard on BMD.

And to end on a positive note – I've absolutely loved working with the UMP, and it will be the first BMD camera I own and use as an A cam. [and, no, I'm not sponsored by BMD!!]


Agreed, Sony had similar issues with the F5 as well.
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William McGough

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 11:23 pm

Tim Schumann wrote:Hopefully not. It is a fairly simple procedure but we need to confirm a few things.

We will have more details for you soon.
@Tim,

Thanks for quickly acknowledging this issue and providing information about BMD's work to remedy it! I currently have a Mini Pro on order and it was very reassuring to see your prompt posts on this matter. (As Vince Lombardi observed, perfection is unobtainable, but if you chase perfection, you are liable to achieve excellence.)
Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k, Pocket Cinema Camera × Metabones
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostSat Apr 01, 2017 3:43 pm

Guys, I discovered with issue and posted it (it was one of the video Will referenced). Flagging the source resolved the issue for me. I took the camera out to shoot a dock soon after posting the video. I never had an issue but once and throwing up a solid fixed it. Hope this helps.
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Peter Furia

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostSat Apr 01, 2017 6:20 pm

I noticed this as well while doing some tests. I was only able to alleviate it by flagging super close to the top of my frame with a matte box. Curious what BMD's solution is.


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Nate Porter

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostSat Apr 01, 2017 10:08 pm

Tim Schumann wrote:Hopefully not. It is a fairly simple procedure but we need to confirm a few things.

We will have more details for you soon.


This is reassuring. Thanks Tim! Can't wait for BH to ship my camera!

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Adam Silver

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostSun Apr 02, 2017 9:44 pm

Hmmm...I pointed mine at a bright window today, and I can't replicate this. I guess these are not all the exact same filters? I will shoot some footage if needed, but I'm not seeing any obvious rainbow flare.

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Alessandro Caporale

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostTue Apr 04, 2017 1:41 pm

Just received my Pro today, yes, I confirm the rainbow flare just pointing to an incident source of light. The more ND you set, the more visible is.
Waiting to know from BM what to do
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Adam Gawenda

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostTue Apr 04, 2017 6:48 pm

I have got the same problem, which is terryfying. I'm thinking about sending it back, as i was going to put it in my rental company, but it is not reliable!

ALSO - At 01:03 ( www youtube.com/watch?v=DC3FVJkL2dU ) you can see a magenta orb in the centre of the Sun, which
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Scott Pultz

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostTue Apr 04, 2017 9:33 pm

This is a deal breaker. I'll hold off until this is fixed...
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostTue Apr 04, 2017 11:16 pm

Man
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostWed Apr 05, 2017 1:20 am

Yeah, I've had my mouse hovering over the buy button, but I'm going to hold off until this is fixed. That flare would drive me up the wall. Hope it's fixed soon!
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Adam Gawenda

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostWed Apr 05, 2017 4:51 pm

The filter causes a magenta tint as well. Look at the girl's face.
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Douglas Sullivan

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostWed Apr 05, 2017 10:04 pm

I had to return my Ursa Mini Pro because of another - more severe - issue related to recording ProResHQ at 4.6k. The replacement I received today doesn't have the rainbow issue as far as I can tell. So curious to know what could be causing this on (only) some units if it can be fixed with a firmware update!


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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Apr 06, 2017 1:30 am

thanks Will for posting this ... Tim has indicated they are working on this and his quick response is deeply appreciated. For the admin people ... please discard my attempts at making this a 'topic.'
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Apr 06, 2017 1:57 am

I do not think this is a firmware issue, more like how the light is interacting or getting around the filters somemhow. More like a QC issue during the camera build.
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Nate Porter

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Apr 06, 2017 3:32 am

Douglas Sullivan wrote:I had to return my Ursa Mini Pro because of another - more severe - issue related to recording ProResHQ at 4.6k. The replacement I received today doesn't have the rainbow issue as far as I can tell. So curious to know what could be causing this on (only) some units if it can be fixed with a firmware update!


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Check post #22 by Tim Schumann

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Douglas Sullivan

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Apr 06, 2017 5:54 am

Nate Porter wrote:
Douglas Sullivan wrote:I had to return my Ursa Mini Pro because of another - more severe - issue related to recording ProResHQ at 4.6k. The replacement I received today doesn't have the rainbow issue as far as I can tell. So curious to know what could be causing this on (only) some units if it can be fixed with a firmware update!


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Check post #22 by Tim Schumann

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That's what I was referring to. I can't imagine what the problem could be that it's got an easy fix!


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Alessandro Caporale

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Apr 06, 2017 6:41 am

I do believe this is an internal reflection from sensor to ND (and not ND to lens). Because the light leak is always of the same intensity, making it more visible when using higer ND (so, dimmed background).
Maybe it's something related to the interchangeable lens mount, but I feel we have to return our cameras for a fix.
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Nick Degn

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Apr 06, 2017 10:41 am

I too have this issue, I managed to flag the top like others, and removed it somewhat but its still present.
Also the halo around the sun flare is purple and green tinted, is this also the same issue as previously stated?
I am kinda troubled by this fix and have the opportunity to return the camera for a new one, as I just bought it.
What do you guys recommend? keep it and wait for the fix (could be a repair at blackmagic!) or return and hope for a new camera without the issue?

Best Regards
Nick Degn
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Alfonso Taurelle Dam

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Apr 06, 2017 11:37 am

I can confirm the same issue on mine, I guess it may be on all the cameras. It only happens at a certain angle shooting against the sun, though its appearence is awful when recording on shoulder or on the move (like a pulsation almost). Many people may not have noticed since it is not that easy to replicate, but it can ruin a shot without even noticing it while recording, so this must be adressed soon.

If the problem is within the ND-sensor and it's mount related it may not need RMA, but my guess is that there's a leak within the ND's, maybe a slight QC issue with tolerances, who knows. Anyway, I'll keep on shooting until it's adressed and then we'll see what needs to be done.

I truly hope this doesn't bring more bad press to BM, the camera is otherwise marvelous. Even so, I hope QC improves, mainly because it's less expensive than having to solve all this issues afterwards via RMA, so better for the company and for the consumer prices in the end.

For the time being, I'll stay tuned to see what BM has to say.
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Adam Silver

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Apr 07, 2017 12:49 am

Well crap! I can confirm it on mine after all. I went outside today and shot with it, and I was able to replicate it. I guess I'll wait for the fix as well.

Adam
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David Chapman

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Apr 07, 2017 3:41 pm

I just wanted to check and see here... it seems like some people are talking about the flare seen in the above examples and others are talking about the sun spot. Those are two different things. I'm concerned about the reflection either on the sensor or whatever is causing that glare—not the sun spot.
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Alfonso Taurelle Dam

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Apr 07, 2017 6:22 pm

David Chapman wrote:I just wanted to check and see here... it seems like some people are talking about the flare seen in the above examples and others are talking about the sun spot. Those are two different things. I'm concerned about the reflection either on the sensor or whatever is causing that glare—not the sun spot.


I believe we are all talking about the same green/magenta flare. BTW, I noticed it on other shot, thought it might have been a weird flare cause by a fingerprint on the lens, didn't give it much importance since it was a lazy first day run, but I saw it again reviewing what I'd recorded and there it was.

Any news on this Tim? Thanks.
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Nate Porter

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Apr 07, 2017 10:21 pm

You can add me to the list of people with the same thing. Just got my camera today and tested. It bleeds from every side of the frame. Obviously this is worst case scenario with a flash light pointed directly into the lens but you get the idea. http://imgur.com/a/zFAN8
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rick.lang

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Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostSat Apr 08, 2017 3:13 pm

People have said that the URSA Mini 4.6K purchasers were really beta testers for the URSA Mini Pro. I think we can put that thought to bed. After twelve months of using my URSA Mini 4.6K PL, not a single problem related to built-in IRND filters to report.



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Jason R. Johnston

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 10, 2017 2:21 pm

Everyone is a beta tester for the next iteration of anything.

Anyway, I came to chime in about the 2-stop ND part from earlier. An ND filter with 2 stops of exposure reduction is called an ND 0.6 in the film world, and an ND4 in the broadcast world, and represents a transmittance amount of 25% light hitting the front lens element. The film (motion picture and stills) world calls it 0.6 because that is the optical density of the filter. The broadcast world says ND4 because, like gain, a stop is gained or lost whenever a value doubles or halves, so ND Zero or Clear is 0 stops reduced, ND2 is 1 stop, ND4 is 2, etc. The film world would be .3, .6, .9, 1.2, etc.

So, I've never heard of an ND4 or ND 0.6 referred to as an ND6. Maybe you speak "ND six" because we usually don't say a decimal (ie, "T two two" instead of "T two point two"), but it is always written "ND point six" or "ND zero point six". I would say "point six ND" or "let's reduce the stops by 2 with some ND" or something like that and the AC would know he needs a 0.6 ND filter. Never actually heard "ND6" before...but that doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong. A wooden clothespin might be called a bullet on one set and a C-47 on another. So long as the people who need to know whats-what on set do know and everything is communicated quickly and professionally, then it probably really doesn't matter.

Also, why say "cameras A and B" when you can say "Anabel and Beatrice"?

Back to the rainbow flare: that sucks. I would generally say it's the coatings of the lens being used, but if this is an internal problem...then I don't know what to tell you. The flare is actually sort of pretty...and I would chalk it up to a "character flaw" of the camera...which makes it more endearing. Of course, I prefer my piano to be slightly out of tune, and I use all kinds of filtration to soften the image coming into the camera on the day...so I'm not a big help. Forget I said anything. :D
Jason R. Johnston
Fifty Oars Motion Pictures
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Darren Scott

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 10, 2017 8:13 pm

Hey BMD...any more news on the fix for this issue?
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