Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

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Cody Gless

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 10, 2017 8:18 pm

Darren Scott wrote:Hey BMD...any more news on the fix for this issue?



I spoke with BMD a couple of hours ago (while less severe than others, I still get some rainbow at 6 stops) and was told that a fix has been found and that it will be rolling out in the next week or two. He was not able to say whether this would be RMA or firmware, only that the fix is on its way.
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Darren Scott

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 10, 2017 8:41 pm

Thanks for the info Cody.
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Caleb Bonanno

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostWed Apr 12, 2017 9:15 am

Just chiming in. I'm also getting the Rainbow Flare. Seems like it's probably on all cameras like others have said. Definitely hoping for a fix on this soon.
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Amer Shanabli

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Apr 14, 2017 12:12 pm

Hi,

I have same problem with my ursa mini pro...

Someone managed to contact people from Blackmagic? I do not, I called the phone number in England ... nobody answered for 30 minutes ... I will try.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Apr 14, 2017 3:24 pm

Send them an email too. They will eventually respond.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Amer Shanabli

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 10:18 am

hi, what is the email adress?
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 11:14 am

Amer Shanabli wrote:hi, what is the email adress?


https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/contact/email
Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
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David Chapman

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 4:37 pm

Has anyone heard if this is a software fix or if it's a physical issue with the ND filters in the body? Just curious before I order one this month...
David Chapman
Just another creative dude with a camera.
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Nate Porter

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 5:01 pm

Just guessing, but i'm assuming it will be a hardware fix. I'd prefer a hardware fix, because it's a hardware issue. Trying to fix it in software will just be more processing that will sometimes create some artifacts. I'd prefer having that processing be going to something like making the headphone audio be realtime and not the 1/2 second or 1 second delay that it is which is distracting.

I've done testing and it seems to be some light leakage around the ND and since we can remove the mount i'm hoping maybe there could be just a small plastic ring or something we can insert behind the mount that blocks the light from leaking

Edit: Here is a test I did tilting up with ND set to clear and a spot light in my office directed straight into the lens. You can see how the back reflection pops up before the light is in the frame and goes away also before the light enters the frame.

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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 5:19 pm

Concerning the audio delay. The delay is caused by the audio processing and being embedded in the video stream. The monitor is checking the quality of the signal at the point it is embedded, so yiu hear the desks caused by the foricessing snd recirding. But, monitoring at this point, you will hear any clipping or other audio,issues resulting from the processing, and hear what is actually being "recorded".

The only way to not have the latency, is to monitor pre-process/recorded audio as it leaves the output stage of the preamp, which will give you "real time" audio monitoring, but you will not be able to hear any clipping or other audio processing issues occurring in the camera audio processing.

Somit is either real time monitoring of the source audio no delay, or monitoring the audio post processed, but with a latency delay. You can not have it both ways. Most ENG camera have (had) a switch to choose pre or post audio monitoring. Sound recordist prefer monitoring audio post, hearing the recorded signal, and this is why they wear big earphones that will only allow them to hear the recorded signal, and not the direct audio from the talent. Camera operators mostly monitored pre-process (source) audio to hear what was going on and to make sure they have an audio signal to the camera, and used the camera meters to track clipping issues.

Would be nice if BM had given the camera operator a choice on the UM Pro camera.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Amer Shanabli

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 6:02 pm

Hi,

I send an email an i receive:

"Thank you for contacting Blackmagic Support.
This email address, is only for Technical Support enquiries, relating to after sales product and customer service. If your question is about something else, your query may be forwarded onto another department." ....

What?

I try to call in UK but nobody respond...only the robot...

???
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Pavel Lavrov

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 8:18 pm

Amer Shanabli wrote:Hi,

I send an email an i receive:

"Thank you for contacting Blackmagic Support.
This email address, is only for Technical Support enquiries, relating to after sales product and customer service. If your question is about something else, your query may be forwarded onto another department." ....

What?

I try to call in UK but nobody respond...only the robot...

???


Were you writing to them about "Rainbow Flare" or anything related future fixes?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Pavel L
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 9:27 pm

Amer Shanabli wrote:Hi,

I send an email an i receive:

"Thank you for contacting Blackmagic Support.
This email address, is only for Technical Support enquiries, relating to after sales product and customer service. If your question is about something else, your query may be forwarded onto another department." ....

What?


Seems like you did not read the whole text...

This is an auto-response email to tell you they have received your message and the next paragraph says that a support technician will get into contact with you as soon as possible.
Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Blackmagic Camera Blog (German):
http://laufbildkommission.wordpress.com

Read the blog in English via Google Translate:
http://tinyurl.com/pjf6a3m
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VicHarris

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 10:02 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
Amer Shanabli wrote:Hi,

I send an email an i receive:

"Thank you for contacting Blackmagic Support.
This email address, is only for Technical Support enquiries, relating to after sales product and customer service. If your question is about something else, your query may be forwarded onto another department." ....

What?


Seems like you did not read the whole text...

This is an auto-response email to tell you they have received your message and the next paragraph says that a support technician will get into contact with you as soon as possible.



sigh
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostTue Apr 18, 2017 10:02 am

Im with Jason R Johnston, I usually shoot through stuff to introduce more flare! My camera exhibits the rainbow flare too, at certain angles with certain focal lengths, its not been a deal breaker. If Im outside on the shoulder, I don't mind seeing the occasional soft flare and think it can add to the image. I have also seen the same thing on my F5. I have a set of vintage lomos, so I'm used to dealing with aberrant unpredictable flare but also have a set of cinealtas for when I want something clean, so can understand the frustration if you're in an interview set up.
I'd like a hardware fix that you can pop in or out, sometimes I might want the rainbows!
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William McGough

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostWed Apr 19, 2017 2:51 pm

David Chapman wrote:Has anyone heard if this is a software fix or if it's a physical issue with the ND filters in the body? Just curious before I order one this month...

I suspect that a fix would most likely involve a mail-out replacement of the piece of glass that is in front of the rotating filters. This appears to be attached by 3 phillips-head screws which would make it user-replaceable, in keeping with @Tim Schumann's post that the fix will "hopefully not" require cameras to be sent back in for implementation.

(I am curious if this protective cover is the cause of the reflections or if it is the filters themselves. I would suspect that it is the actual filters, given their coating. That being said, if the protective cover were to be replaced with one that absorbed IR & UV light by absorption (as opposed to by reflection), perhaps that would go a ways towards solving the problem.)
Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k, Pocket Cinema Camera × Metabones
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Scott Pultz

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostWed Apr 19, 2017 10:05 pm

It would be nice to know soon as I want to order one of these cameras once a fix in place. Perhaps they don't want to announce an RMA path right before NAB.
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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostWed Apr 19, 2017 11:18 pm

The NAB 2017 news media will be all over BMD about this issue if a correction is not in place by NAB. They made a big deal of the lack of built-in ND filters on my beloved URSA Mini 4.6K camera so several won't be reluctant to cite the much improved Mini Pro but you know they can't resist landing a jab when your guard is down.


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Rick Lang
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HankCarter

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostThu Apr 20, 2017 5:02 pm

Could these be Newton Rings? They were a common problem in film scanners and could be eliminated by using a film holder made with anti-Newton glass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_rings

"Newton's rings is a phenomenon in which an interference pattern is created by the reflection of light between two surfaces—a spherical surface and an adjacent touching flat surface. It is named for Isaac Newton, who first studied the effect in 1717. When viewed with monochromatic light, Newton's rings appear as a series of concentric, alternating bright and dark rings centered at the point of contact between the two surfaces. When viewed with white light, it forms a concentric ring pattern of rainbow colors, because the different wavelengths of light interfere at different thicknesses of the air layer between the surfaces."

Perhaps it is caused by the glass cover on the sensor and filter. They're sit parallel to each other at a close distance.
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Benton Collins

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Apr 21, 2017 5:21 am

HankCarter wrote:Could these be Newton Rings? They were a common problem in film scanners and could be eliminated by using a film holder made with anti-Newton glass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_rings

"Newton's rings is a phenomenon in which an interference pattern is created by the reflection of light between two surfaces—a spherical surface and an adjacent touching flat surface. It is named for Isaac Newton, who first studied the effect in 1717. When viewed with monochromatic light, Newton's rings appear as a series of concentric, alternating bright and dark rings centered at the point of contact between the two surfaces. When viewed with white light, it forms a concentric ring pattern of rainbow colors, because the different wavelengths of light interfere at different thicknesses of the air layer between the surfaces."

Perhaps it is caused by the glass cover on the sensor and filter. They're sit parallel to each other at a close distance.


No, the problem cannot be Newton rings. Newton rings appear only when two pieces of glass are in direct contact with each other. The rotating ND filters and glass cover on the sensor do not touch each other.
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Richard Day

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostFri Apr 21, 2017 8:41 pm

Having recently bought the Mini Ursa pro I've read with interest the issue with flare. I can recreate this issue if i try but as most of my work is under controlled conditions and it may not affect me.

I have been waiting for some time for the PL mount and wondered if when I get the mount the issue is still there. Has anyone lucky enough to have received the PL mount still have the problem?

I just wonder if this is a hardware issue to do with the internal position of the filter wheel.
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thomas bruegger

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 5:06 am

Someone sent in the camera and got it fixed?
Thomas Bruegger / garage5 GmbH
www.garage5.ch
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Uli Plank

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 7:30 am

Definitely not Newton rings. I can reproduce the rainbow with quite a few of my lenses. I suppose it's the shiny edge of the protective glass, you can see with your naked eye how reflective it is. It will need some kind of cover or a replacement.

This will need an optical solution, not a firmware fix. If you can do it on your own? Only BM can tell. If the camera would be out of warranty, I'd do a very careful job with Japanese model paint in matte black, it has helped me a lot with less than perfect adapters for vintage glass ;-)

BTW, this whole issue with reflections from filters behind the lens is not a new one. Red had to struggle with it from day one, when the Red One came out and made regular patterns of red dots if you were shooting into the sun – or was it branding? ;-)
The problem raised it's ugly head again with the Dragon sensor and they needed more than a year to completely fix it with a new OLPF. Now, BM is pretty new into filters behind the lens. The whole issue is much more difficult with digital sensors than with film, I can provoke such artifacts even with an Arri Alexa under extreme conditions.
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Nate Porter

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 2:28 pm

Just wanted to post another video showing the back reflections at it's worst. You can see how it clearly is the ND as it goes away when I spin the wheel. Sun is right above the frame. This is straight out of the camera, nothing done to the image.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 3:43 pm

I get that even in the "clear" position.
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Nate Porter

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 3:46 pm

Uli Plank wrote:I get that even in the "clear" position.


Right me too i'm just showing worst case scenario and how it is clearly the filter wheel as it moves when the filter wheel is moving.

It is also a case of showing that it's not just a subtle little flare that adds some character.
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Earl R. Thurston

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 4:40 pm

Based on everything I've seen in the samples, my guess is that the frame holding the ND filters doesn't completely block the surrounding opening, and bright light in the periphery is getting around the frame and causing flare and/or reflections on the sensor side of the filter.
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Pavel Lavrov

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 6:09 pm

Any updates on a fix, coming from NAB Show?


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Adam Silver

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 5:59 am

According to jonesyjones on bmcuser.com:

The Rainbow flare has an official fix. It will be released in two weeks. They call it a mask, but it looks like a filter that you'll just place over the ir. They have one on display. They will send them to current owners and will soon be preinstalled.

A little bit more info from John Brawley in the same thread:

Not a filter. Its a modified mask / light trap. Simple fix.

Full thread: http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?2 ... s-from-NAB

Adam
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Cody Gless

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 2:59 pm

As simple as the turrets we're supposed to be to upgrade?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 5:03 pm

The Turret upgrade was never simple! You should give the Ursa manual a read on the upgrade process.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Cody Gless

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k ND Rainbow Flare

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 5:19 pm

Denny Smith wrote:The Turret upgrade was never simple! You should give the Ursa manual a read on the upgrade process.
Cheers


It never happened is my point.
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