URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!!

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Amer Shanabli

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URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!!

PostWed Apr 19, 2017 7:46 am

URSA Mini Pro 4.6K

Issues to Resolve:

1. ND Rainbow Flare (big problem / design problem)
2. Noisy Image & FPN & Hot Pixels
3. Sound ... the sound is very noisy (+more noise when use +48V) and DELAYED on headphone output ( on ENG camera? )


Improvements (or firmware updates):

1. 3200 ISO maybe...
2. 120fps full sensor / without window crop
3. Loosless RAW in Timelapse Mode (when use STILL button - pictures have 18.4MB vs 11.4MB when shot video RAW 4.6K > x1.5 compression)
4. DNxHR codec
5. 3x-5x zoom in display (focus checker)
6. BIG Histogram option & add Parade - Waveform - Vectorscope
7. Proxy files on SD cards when shot RAW on CFast
8. Menu button and wheel doesn't work (only on EVF?)


Thank you.
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Tristan Pemberton

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostWed Apr 19, 2017 1:06 pm

Sure. No worries. Coming right up. Anything else?


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Nick Gombinsky

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostWed Apr 19, 2017 1:19 pm

And then another firmware update to make the sensor bigger.
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Chris Clifton

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostWed Apr 19, 2017 8:19 pm

OMG I totally love your response, Tristan. Every new camera has issues and a half dozen firmware or hardware updates within 6 months. I've owned several of them from other high end manufacturers myself and they were worse. These are not deal breakers on the UMPro, they just take some figuring out by the engineers, and a little patience from us.

Tristan Pemberton wrote:Sure. No worries. Coming right up. Anything else?


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Andrew Walldez

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostThu Apr 20, 2017 5:14 pm

Yes, can we get a sensor noise thread, just a general sensor noise thread? We should be able to push and pull the image without seeing horrible color noise. I shoot at ISO 400 and still see noise. Why does it seem like the camera is just amplifying noise? Something seems wrong.
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silvio bonomi

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostThu Apr 20, 2017 6:23 pm

Amer Shanabli wrote:URSA Mini Pro 4.6K

Issues to Resolve:

1. ND Rainbow Flare (big problem / design problem)
2. Noisy Image & FPN & Hot Pixels
3. Sound ... the sound is very noisy (+more noise when use +48V) and DELAYED on headphone output ( on ENG camera? )


Improvements (or firmware updates):

1. 3200 ISO maybe...
2. 120fps full sensor / without window crop
3. Loosless RAW in Timelapse Mode (when use STILL button - pictures have 18.4MB vs 11.4MB when shot video RAW 4.6K > x1.5 compression)
4. DNxHR codec
5. 3x-5x zoom in display (focus checker)
6. BIG Histogram option & add Parade - Waveform - Vectorscope
7. Proxy files on SD cards when shot RAW on CFast
8. Menu button and wheel doesn't work (only on EVF?)


Thank you.


...e una fettina di culo no ???
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Amer Shanabli

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostThu Apr 20, 2017 7:21 pm

Hello dear friends & angry people, why so much negativity?

In large part there are minor things for our times ... you know that ...

I'm not asking for these things just for me ...

Maybe you know that the technology in general exists, just that it is served on small pieces ... much marketing ... beautiful packaging ... & bla blah bla ...

All good & peace.
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Carlos Garcia-Diaz

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostFri Apr 21, 2017 3:23 am

Amer Shanabli wrote:Hello dear friends & angry people, why so much negativity?


Agreed. There are people on these forums that follow a familiar pattern whenever anyone dares to point out the obvious QC issues that seem to plague the 4.6k and now the "pro": (1) point out how other camera manufacturers are just as bad, which is irrelevant to the issues with these cameras, and (2) defend BM despite all of the known and verified issues with these cameras.

As Amer pointed out, asking BM to improve its cameras and resolve their issues would benefit everyone, so why automatically dismiss criticisms which are legitimate? Fanboism. Read these forums and do a Google search if you want to find examples of people that have either shot footage on projects which is useless (terrible FPN and distortions in the footage viewtopic.php?f=2&t=57955) or have had the camera not function properly during a shoot. Asking BM to make better well-made cameras would benefit everyone if and when they do. Categorically shooting down constructive and legitimate criticisms of these issues helps no one.

I wouldn't trust one of these cameras (the 4.6ks) on a major project. No without extensive testing first, that is assuming that I actually got my hands on one that did not have to be RMA'ed soon after receiving them, as many people on these forums have had to do.

No wonder this happens:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58359
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Tristan Pemberton

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostFri Apr 21, 2017 2:24 pm

Carlos Garcia-Diaz wrote:
Amer Shanabli wrote:Hello dear friends & angry people, why so much negativity?


Agreed. There are people on these forums that follow a familiar pattern whenever anyone dares to point out the obvious QC issues that seem to plague the 4.6k and now the "pro": (1) point out how other camera manufacturers are just as bad, which is irrelevant to the issues with these cameras, and (2) defend BM despite all of the known and verified issues with these cameras.

As Amer pointed out, asking BM to improve its cameras and resolve their issues would benefit everyone, so why automatically dismiss criticisms which are legitimate? Fanboism. Read these forums and do a Google search if you want to find examples of people that have either shot footage on projects which is useless (terrible FPN and distortions in the footage viewtopic.php?f=2&t=57955) or have had the camera not function properly during a shoot. Asking BM to make better well-made cameras would benefit everyone if and when they do. Categorically shooting down constructive and legitimate criticisms of these issues helps no one.

I wouldn't trust one of these cameras (the 4.6ks) on a major project. No without extensive testing first, that is assuming that I actually got my hands on one that did not have to be RMA'ed soon after receiving them, as many people on these forums have had to do.

No wonder this happens:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58359

I think you are missing the point. It's not the "legitimate" criticism that seems farcical, it's the shopping-list-style of requests that quite simply demonstrate a lack of research, understanding, and in some cases to be frank, common sense.

BMD do a great job of providing a camera rich with features at a price point no-one else can match. Yet, despite that, there's a never ending line of people that seem to think that what they are being offered is not enough; they should keep adding features simply because they say so.
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Carlos Garcia-Diaz

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostFri Apr 21, 2017 5:24 pm

Tristan Pemberton wrote:I think you are missing the point. It's not the "legitimate" criticism that seems farcical, it's the shopping-list-style of requests that quite simply demonstrate a lack of research, understanding, and in some cases to be frank, common sense.


I agree with you on this for the following reason: people should stop asking for new features on cameras that do have technical defects until after BM has ironed out and fixed all of these problems. The issue, as someone else stated on another thread, is that BM doesn't seem to want to do that (fully implementing promised features or fixing issues before moving on and releasing new products).
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Amer Shanabli

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostFri Apr 21, 2017 7:37 pm

Hello again.

Do I want too much?

Passing over the fact that BMD is trying to offer options to say high at decent prices, how do you explain that the URSA MINI PRO has just been released, with improvements... such as internal ND filters ... and ... after a wonderful presentation ... we already have problems: ND RAINBOW FLARE, it would be the 3rd generation cameras.

Either cameras are not tested before, or maybe is a marketing strategy.

I have never said that BMD don't try to make good products.

All good.
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Emilian Dechev

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostFri Apr 21, 2017 11:02 pm

I would also like to have a bigger ZOOM for the focus checker on all URSA models. Must be easily done in firmware. 2X is just not enough. Maybe 4X will be great!
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John Brawley

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostSat Apr 22, 2017 1:51 am

People usually end up on a forum like this because they have a problem.

It can create a perception of their being more problems than there may actually be.

I compare other major camera makers because people say dumb stuff like "id never trust it on a major project" when I can easily point what I consider to be bigger show stopping problems from other camera manufacturers that DIDNT stop them being used on major projects.

I've seen threads where people think they're discussing the same issue but it's actually three different issues. You get called a defender or apologist for pointing that out of course.

Nothing wrong with requesting new features. If you want to make claims about what other people can and can't do with the gear then expect to get someone saying the opposite.

JB
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Benton Collins

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostSat Apr 22, 2017 2:50 am

Emilian Dechev wrote:I would also like to have a bigger ZOOM for the focus checker on all URSA models. Must be easily done in firmware. 2X is just not enough. Maybe 4X will be great!


YES! This Please!
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Robert Niessner

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostSat Apr 22, 2017 11:41 am

Tristan Pemberton wrote:I think you are missing the point. It's not the "legitimate" criticism that seems farcical, it's the shopping-list-style of requests that quite simply demonstrate a lack of research, understanding, and in some cases to be frank, common sense.

BMD do a great job of providing a camera rich with features at a price point no-one else can match. Yet, despite that, there's a never ending line of people that seem to think that what they are being offered is not enough; they should keep adding features simply because they say so.


Sorry Tristan, I don't get your point.

Amer raises some legitimate issues which affect some of the cameras out there. And he makes some good improvement proposals from a users perspective.

The only proposal I'd criticize is #2 120fps full sensor / without window crop because this is a hardware restriction BMD just can't circumvent easily. As far as I know BMD in the past has never artificially restricted their hardware, but have pushed it as far as they could and made sense.

I don't see asking for adding features a bad thing. If BMD adds often requested features it makes the camera more interesting to more potential buyers. Of course they have to evaluate what makes sense to add and what not.

I am glad that BMD did not listen to you but instead immensely improved the handling of the UM46k camera with firmware 4.x over 3.x

I am glad that BMD did not listen to you but instead improved the handling of the BMCC/BMPC camera with firmware 1.9.x over older versions by adding a histogram, audio levels and remaining time.

EDIT:
I'd like to get a better notification when recordings stops because of dropped frames. 2 days ago I rolled an interview for ~20 min. (ProRes 1080p) and somewhere after the 8th minute the camera stopped recording which took me a minute to realize (5th day of shooting in a row, little sleep - you all know that) because I was concentrating on the talent and the action behind in the background.

The problem is that the recording symbol just turns from red to gray with an exclamation mark.
It would better if that exclamation mark symbol would be blinking on yellow ground after recording has stopped because that can be realized by your mind much easier than just a color change.
I mean, for me it IS a little bit of an important information if my camera just stopped recording without my consent.
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Denny Smith

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostSat Apr 22, 2017 6:43 pm

That is why I use the TC indicator to check that the camera is rolling, camera stops recording, TC counter stops rolling. Having the TC display on top or at bottom if screen really helps to keep an eye on it.
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Carlos Garcia-Diaz

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostSun Apr 23, 2017 6:29 pm

John Brawley wrote: It can create a perception of their being more problems than there may actually be.


Well, BM has a perception problem then. But where is this perception coming from? Why are producers and rental houses hesitant to recommend these cameras (the thread that I referred to)? I can point you to numerous examples of people using these cameras on projects where they had major problems or issues. I'm no camera expert, but I can tell you that I've been using Ikegami/Sony/JVC/Panasonic cameras for over 10 years and I've never had the types of issues that people are reporting with the 4.6ks. Does that mean that these cameras are perfect or that no one has ever had any issues with them? Of course not, but not to this extent. BM needs to step up its quality control and improve. Everyone would benefit from this.

John Brawley wrote: If you want to make claims about what other people can and can't do with the gear then expect to get someone saying the opposite.


This statement does not negate either contention. It is possible for two seemingly contradictory assertions to be true at the same time. The fact some people are not be experiencing problems with these cameras means nothing to those that are, and both situations are probably true. I, for one, would love to be able to buy the 4.6k pro (we have purchased almost $10k of BM equipment for our studio this last year) but not when so many people are clearly having serious issues with these cameras.
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John Brawley

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 3:22 am

Carlos Garcia-Diaz wrote:Well, BM has a perception problem then.


Maybe.

Does it really matter anyway ?

I can go back 6 years and just substitute RED for Blackmagic in 95% of the comments about BMD cameras. Most of them are based on un-truths or half truths and bad workflow practice. How many corrupted frame were bad CFAST card readers ? How many dropped frames were because of un-recommended media ? How many posts have we seen about not knowing to swipe up and down to get the on screen display working ?

It's terrible that anyone would be hired based on the camera they own or choose. I know that is a reality for some.

I have used these cameras for nigh on 5 years now. They're been more solid for me than most other cameras and I shoot a lot of stuff....with a lot of different cameras. That's just real life experience, but only my experience. Years of daily life experience...

I find the biggest resistance and ignorance about Blackmagic cameras comes not from Networks, Studios or producers, but the camera department itself. Mostly by the end of a show, most of them are buying one for themselves.

Carlos Garcia-Diaz wrote:
John Brawley wrote: If you want to make claims about what other people can and can't do with the gear then expect to get someone saying the opposite.


This statement does not negate either contention.


Exactly.

JB
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Amer Shanabli

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 7:33 am

Hello friends,

I think the discussion has gone a bit, I like what Blackmagic do, my demands are in a contructive way, not critical, but for example i can not accept the new issue with ND Rainbow Flare, Ursa Mini is the third generation.
Does anyone really test these cameras?

I think the most effective option for both parties (Blackmagic & users) is that before the final version of the product is tested by a few people in the field / professionals (dp's, editors, ...).

I'm currently waiting for that fix for ND Rainbow Flare at my new Ursa Mini Pro.

Blackmagic is growing, it has potential, I think it will do great things in the future, but I can also take some of the user's needs into consideration.

Thank you.
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Uli Plank

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 7:44 am

BM is new to filters behind the lens, and they are causing the the rainbow flare IMHO.

Red still had similar problems when they introduced the Dragon, so many years after the Red One …
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Amer Shanabli

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Re: URSA Mini Pro 4.6K - ISSUES to Resolve & Improvements !!

PostMon May 01, 2017 8:49 am

URSA Mini Pro 4.6K

Issues to Resolve:

1. ND Rainbow Flare (big problem / design problem)
2. Noisy Image & FPN & Hot Pixels
3. Sound ... the sound is very noisy (+more noise when use +48V) and DELAYED on headphone output ( on ENG camera? )


Improvements (or firmware updates):

1. 3200 ISO maybe...
2. 120fps full sensor / without window crop
3. Loosless RAW in Timelapse Mode (when use STILL button - pictures have 18.4MB vs 11.4MB when shot video RAW 4.6K > x1.5 compression)
4. DNxHR codec
5. 3x-5x zoom in display (focus checker)
6. BIG Histogram option & add Parade - Waveform - Vectorscope
7. Proxy files on SD cards when shot RAW on CFast
8. Menu button and wheel doesn't work (only on EVF?)
9. Reduce image delay on LCD / EVF


Thank you.

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