Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

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Uli Plank

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Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostSun Apr 23, 2017 12:51 pm

Had a chance today to test these two cameras against each other. I tested each camera cold, after heating up to working temperature and finally after calibration. I opened test pictures in Photoshop and in Resolve, of course I recorded RAW, uncompressed in the case of the Ursa Mini Pro, since Adobe's software doesn't read compressed DNGs until today, even with their latest update. The Scarlet's recording was at the usual 8:1 compression.

A few observations:
All pictures were black on a calibrated screen without massive lifting. When I turned the "Exposure" parameter in Photoshop to 10, I finally saw real differences.
The UM46P showed a bit more noise when cold, while the Scarlet got more noisy when at working temperature. The Scarlet had about 7 dead pixels, one quite prominent in the center, while the UM46P had no dead pixels – or thousands of them. What does that mean? Well, the lifted noise of the UM46P was darker in general, but had more contrast with many small lighter pixels. There was some vertical FPN all over the DNGs, a bit stronger on the left side. The Scarlet showed minimal traces of horizontal FPN in some areas.
After calibration, which takes about 13 minutes (!) with the Scarlet, all dead pixels were gone, as was any trace of FPN. There was only very smooth, irregular colored noise left, very cinematic, but at a bit higher intensity than from the UM46P.
The UM46P improved only marginally, both noise and FPN was reduced slightly, but not much. It had probably been calibrated recently, and calibration takes only a few seconds. The Scarlet can store a few calibrations for different temperatures and/or exposure times, which is not really important for the UM46P with such short calibration times.
When I compared the footage in Resolve (both set to log) and turned the gain up to 4, the noise band from the Scarlet was a bit narrower and touched the 50% level, but it was very smooth. The noise band from the UM46P was lower, but wider and hat obvious spikes, that also touched 50% at maximum – these were fixed pattern.

Conclusion: these are both CMOS sensors, so don't starve them for light. Yes, the UM46P has some FPN, but nothing that should ruin your footage if shoot at reasonable light levels. BTW, the Scarlet MX was close to 10K with all accessories to make it work (minus a lens) when I last checked second hand offers and it doesn't have the same frame rates the UM46P offers and no ProRes or uncompressed RAW. Not bad, BM!
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Ryan Hamblin

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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostSun Apr 23, 2017 1:20 pm

The um46 also beats the pants off scarlet in dynamic range
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Yuri Gagarin

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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostSun Apr 23, 2017 3:01 pm

Thanks for sharing.
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Andrew Walldez

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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostSun Apr 23, 2017 6:28 pm

How about you post your findings.
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Dan Shay

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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 12:16 am

From my testing, the "Black Shading" on the mini 4.6k, doesn't remove fpn. It corrects a shift to blue in underexposure. Thus making blacks, look black. I don't see how the camera could actually do a fixed pattern calibration so quickly anyway. It has to look at numerous frames, calculate the noise which doesn't change and create a map to remove the fpn from new frames.
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Krishna Pada

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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 4:04 am

Uli Plank wrote: The Scarlet's recording was at the usual 8:1 compression.


In Red Scarlet MX, 8:1 compression is a wee bit too much. A 5:1 compression is good for Scarlet MX. With Dragon and Helium sensors, with the new DSMC2 body, people usually go up to 7:1 for professional quality.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 7:41 am

Yes, I know, 8:1 is kind of smoothing the noise to some degree, that's why it looks so cinematic ;-)

The camera was here for just two hours, but I'll do a few more tests anyway. Wavelet compression is always smoothing the picture out to some degree, while the compression in BM's cameras is keeping very fine detail.

OTOH, FPN can't be fixed with Neatvideo or similar software. I agree that seriously mapping the FPN out takes more analysis than just a few seconds, even an Epic Dragon needs minutes to do it.

Regarding DR, it's not only the range between getting out of the noise floor and clipping. A very important factor are color shifts when saturated colors get close to clipping – think neon sign, street lights or rear lamps of cars at night. Some cameras have horrible color shifts (many Sonys for example), other desaturate. I'll test this tonight, but from my test of the UM46 a while ago I'd suppose it to desaturate more than an Arri Alexa.
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 3:16 pm

Krishna Pada wrote:
Uli Plank wrote: The Scarlet's recording was at the usual 8:1 compression.


In Red Scarlet MX, 8:1 compression is a wee bit too much. A 5:1 compression is good for Scarlet MX. With Dragon and Helium sensors, with the new DSMC2 body, people usually go up to 7:1 for professional quality.


I'm going on memory here, but I don't believe you can do 5:1 in a full screen 24fps recording on Scarlet (need Epic for that). But yeah I'd wonder why you'd use anything lower than 6:1.

I'm coming from a mini 4.6k that I sold and grabbed a Scarlet MX, and the only areas I see a clear improvement on the Ursa is in DR, in-camera prores and frame rates. The Scarlet has the advantage in having more ISO options and no real image "gotchas" like magenta vignetting, crosshatching/fpn etc.

Yeah the Scarlet costs more, but we're also talking about a 4-5 year old camera that not only competes with the latest and greatest of the under $10k cameras of today, but is actually still getting updates that significantly affect image quality.

IMO the most significant difference between the Scarlet and the Ursa is the support behind them.
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Krishna Pada

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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 5:33 pm

Fahnon Bennett wrote:
I'm coming from a mini 4.6k that I sold and grabbed a Scarlet MX, and the only areas I see a clear improvement on the Ursa is in DR, in-camera prores and frame rates. The Scarlet has the advantage in having more ISO options and no real image "gotchas" like magenta vignetting, crosshatching/fpn etc.

Yeah the Scarlet costs more, but we're also talking about a 4-5 year old camera that not only competes with the latest and greatest of the under $10k cameras of today, but is actually still getting updates that significantly affect image quality.

IMO the most significant difference between the Scarlet and the Ursa is the support behind them.


Sounds crazy. Scarlet MX is no more manufactured and sold. You can get them at second hand market only. And someone is selling is UM46 to buy that!
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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 9:50 pm

Krishna Pada wrote:
Fahnon Bennett wrote:
I'm coming from a mini 4.6k that I sold and grabbed a Scarlet MX, and the only areas I see a clear improvement on the Ursa is in DR, in-camera prores and frame rates. The Scarlet has the advantage in having more ISO options and no real image "gotchas" like magenta vignetting, crosshatching/fpn etc.

Yeah the Scarlet costs more, but we're also talking about a 4-5 year old camera that not only competes with the latest and greatest of the under $10k cameras of today, but is actually still getting updates that significantly affect image quality.

IMO the most significant difference between the Scarlet and the Ursa is the support behind them.


Sounds crazy. Scarlet MX is no more manufactured and sold. You can get them at second hand market only. And someone is selling is UM46 to buy that!


Well look at the options out there. If you want to shoot cinema, 4k and have access to RAW, what can you get under $10k US? Pretty much only BMD and used RED. BMD pissed me off and lost my faith and the Scarlet image is comparable (and better in some ways as I mentioned above). You can also breathe easy buying a used RED because they offer to inspect and give a warranty even on their older cameras.

With all that in mind, what real difference does it make if the camera is still being made? RED's support is still there...
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rick.lang

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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 2:59 am

Fahnon, you have a good grasp of both cameras and their manufacturers' business models, so your decision was well-informed and we respect that. Maybe in a couple of years, you'll be back with another BMD camera.


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Fahnon Bennett

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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 4:26 am

rick.lang wrote:Fahnon, you have a good grasp of both cameras and their manufacturers' business models, so your decision was well-informed and we respect that. Maybe in a couple of years, you'll be back with another BMD camera.


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Hey there Rick. Thanks for such a gracious response. I loved the original BMCC and still have a pocket (so I'm not totally gone) and am open to buying an A cam from BMD again if they make improvements in the customer service and quality control areas. In fact the Pro addressing some of the feedback we all gave on the mini so directly gives me hope because I have been here from the beginning (like you have) and at the end of the day I hope they do well.

So I think BMD has some work to do, but if they do maybe you're right about me being back...
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 4:51 am

Fahnon Bennett wrote:Well look at the options out there. If you want to shoot cinema, 4k and have access to RAW, what can you get under $10k US? Pretty much only BMD and used RED.


And Kinefinity. Don't forget them. :)
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Uli Plank

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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 6:32 am

Do they really exist?
;-)
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Noise and FPN of UM46P vs Red Scarlet MX

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 7:57 pm

I saw one of them in person at NAB... the 6K models are shipping, but it seems that they're still having trouble with the 5K's global sensor mode. :twisted:
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