Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

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John Marksman

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Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostMon May 01, 2017 8:09 am

Hey everyone.

Bought the Blackmagic Micro 4K needed the largest possible FOV for it (presumably with a Micro 4/3). Recommendations?

Thanks so much!
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Uli Plank

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostMon May 01, 2017 11:24 am

Well, you can adapt C-mount lenses. I have two very nice ones which cover, but I'm afraid they are both vintage now:
– Schneider Cinegon 10mm f1.8 – only the version with a large front lens (55mm thread) covers
– Kowa 8mm f1.4 (more modern coatings, but much more distortion)

Apart from that it's MFT I suppose.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostMon May 01, 2017 3:18 pm

Well, depending on how wide you want, the new upcoming Panasonic Leica wide zoom will give you 8mm to 18mm, f/2.8-4 with a smooth (no step) changes, it's a MFT lens, so coverage will be great, takes front filters too.
For WA Primes, the SLR Magic 10mm Next in line would be the Panny and Oly 12mm offering, including the excellent Panny/Leica 12mm f/1.4 lens. The Oly 12mm f/2.0 is a nice small lens with excellent IQ. SLR Magic also makes a nice 12mm Hyperprime. Next up would be the P/L 15mm. All these lenses take front filters.

The Micro Studio has a open gate size slightly larger than S16 (the Pocket and Micro Cinema have a sensor a little smaller than S16 open gate size) so some vintage lenses like the Zeiss 9.5 Super Speed that covers the Pocket/Micro Cinema, will not quite cover the Micro Studio. That said, the Illumina and Elite 9.5mm covers both (I have tested this). Most C mount lenses, while they cover the Micro Cinema, WA will not quite cover the Micro Studio corners, and youwill see noticeably dark corners. The Super Speeds need a matte box or clamp on filter rings, as they do not have fri t filer threads.

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rick.lang

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostMon May 01, 2017 10:52 pm

SLR Magic has a new 8mm f/4 photo lens for MFT.


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Denny Smith

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostMon May 01, 2017 11:23 pm

That's getting very wide! Good to know, however thanks Rick.
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John Marksman

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostWed May 03, 2017 6:15 am

Forgot to mention, cannot be fisheye.

Thanks
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John Marksman

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostWed May 03, 2017 6:18 am

rick.lang wrote:SLR Magic has a new 8mm f/4 photo lens for MFT.


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This one?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _lens.html

Not fisheye right?
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rick.lang

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostWed May 03, 2017 4:25 pm

That's correct. What do you think, John?


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Denny Smith

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostWed May 03, 2017 4:32 pm

Probably not a fisheye, but it is going to have edge distortion, especially close in. This is more of a drone flight lens, with locking focus and stiff Iris to prevent vibration changes. If you do not need a lens quite thismwide, the Oly 12mm f/2:0 is smaller in size, and has well controlled distortion, especially when shot in a S16 sensor, yiumare onlymusimg the center of both lenses, so,distortion is reduced, compared tomshooting either lens in a larger MFT sensor.
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Simon Baker

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostWed May 03, 2017 9:19 pm

rick.lang wrote:SLR Magic has a new 8mm f/4 photo lens for MFT.


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I received this lens direct from SLR Magic for testing and review last month.
Indeed rectilinear. Used it on my BMMCC.

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rick.lang

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostThu May 04, 2017 3:45 am

Thanks, Simon. Sure an 8mm lens for $299 is going to have some distortion, but it looks well-controlled if the vanishing point is the horizon. When the camera is tilted up or down significantly, then the distortion appears worse.


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John Marksman

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostThu May 04, 2017 8:01 am

rick.lang wrote:Thanks, Simon. Sure an 8mm lens for $299 is going to have some distortion, but it looks well-controlled if the vanishing point is the horizon. When the camera is tilted up or down significantly, then the distortion appears worse.


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Thanks a lot rick :)
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Simon Baker

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostThu May 04, 2017 12:01 pm

rick.lang wrote:Thanks, Simon. Sure an 8mm lens for $299 is going to have some distortion, but it looks well-controlled if the vanishing point is the horizon. When the camera is tilted up or down significantly, then the distortion appears worse.


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Absolutely Rick. It's strongly suggested by SLR Magic to shoot at f/8, which definitely helps reduce edge distortion. I wish it had IS, but for that price, can't complain much. At the end of the day, it suits my needs and I do like it. My biggest concern is with magenta shift toward the edges. I can only assume this is IR contamination from the sensor since I haven't seen it in other peoples test or reviews. I have an ND8 on there now and don't know if I'll bother with an IR cut at this point. Other than that video, I haven't had much opportunity to use it since acquired. I'll be bringing it and my bmmcc on an upcoming trip to Cali to test away from home.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostThu May 04, 2017 3:04 pm

That's not IR, but probably the angle of rays in the corners.
BTW, stopping down can improve many things, but not distortion.
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rick.lang

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostThu May 04, 2017 4:53 pm

Uli, I wonder if it's more likely some lens chromatic aberration showing up rather than any shortcoming of the sensor.


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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostThu May 04, 2017 5:03 pm

I agree with Rick, the lens has some CA from the test shot posted here wide open, giving a soft look to the image, and improves as it is stopped down, and f/8 seems like the sweet spot. This would work for drone work and outside shots, as you can use f/8, and get the added DOF to help with a preset focus.
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Simon Baker

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostThu May 04, 2017 7:20 pm

rick.lang wrote:Uli, I wonder if it's more likely some lens chromatic aberration showing up rather than any shortcoming of the sensor.


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I shot these in RAW. Let me know if anyone wants to analyze an uncorrected DNG file or two.
I'd like to know if it's the sensor or not causing the magenta cast. Seemed to do it with and without an ND filter.
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rick.lang

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostThu May 04, 2017 8:52 pm

The shots in which you compare f/4, f/8, and f/16 to my eye show much less chromatic aberration from the lens as the iris closes down. I'm doubtful there's a problem with this sensor as some of us have experienced on the 4.6K sensor. Putting a higher quality lens on the camera might demonstrate if it's the 8mm lens or the sensor.


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Peter Fizgal

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostThu May 11, 2017 7:03 am

The magenta cast reminds me a lot of what happens when using Leica M wide angles on non-leica bodies.

In photography I've seen this a lot, many people trying Leica M glass on for example the Sony A7. The result was often this kind of magenta vignetting.
Apparantly Leica bodies have micro-lenses incorporated on the sensor to correct this, while non-leica bodies do not have this, resulting in the magenta corners.

There is a tool that corrects this and is called "CornerFix", but this is for photography, not video.

I think, what Uli sais is correct and that this is not chromatic aberration, but due to the combination of the small wide angle and the sensor being used.
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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostThu May 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Peter, interesting, and I would tend to agree with you, when using the lens on a larger MFT sensor camera, but using it on a smaller S16 sensor camera, the lens' projected image circle is cropped to the center area, and the edges of the circle do not hit the sensor. Shouldn't this reduce the magenta corner cast and lessen CA issues, which are worst at the edges of a given lens projected circle?

The corner cast from Leica M lenses (which are designed for film cameras, except some of the newer digital camera series lenses being made, have very well controlled CA, and as you said, the corner cast comes from am interaction with the lens and some digital sensors. A similar issue to the BM 4.6 sensor and some lenses, especially 35mm still camera lenses, same issue, especially when sopped down to f/5.6 or 8.
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rick.lang

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostThu May 11, 2017 9:05 pm

Thanks, Peter.


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Peter Fizgal

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostFri May 12, 2017 6:29 am

Denny,
Couldn't the reasoning be applicable here as well ?
The SLR Magic looks to me (I'm guessing) that it is an adapted C-Mount Machine Vision lens, adapted to M43 mount.
If I'm not mistaken, Machine Vision lenses designed for 1" sensors should work on Super16 when adapted, and 1" is not much bigger than a Super16 sensor.

However, the lens is marketed as a true M43 lens, and SLR Magic has some impressive shots on Vimeo where no color cast is visible at all.
It might be that the footage from SLR Magic is corrected in post, but when comparing to the video that is posted here, the difference is night and day. Maybe the lens in this thread is just faulty ?

Here's the vimeo video of this lens :
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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostFri May 12, 2017 2:58 pm

Yes Peter, it could. I was just madding another possible angle to this. I have lot some of experience with Leica M Lenses, new and old, as a former Leica 35mm film shooter, so I understand how Leica lenses work.
Bitmthemissuemcould,also just be howmthe sample,was edited and graded, or more likely, how it was compressed for the web version we saw, with the artifacts added. We would need to loom at the original files to be sure.
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John Marksman

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostFri May 12, 2017 6:47 pm

Just bought this lens.

Does not work for green screens the aperture is too small.

This was the main purpose of the camera. Any other ideas then? Need at least f/2 for the widest angle possible lens for this camera.

Peter Fizgal wrote:Denny,
Couldn't the reasoning be applicable here as well ?
The SLR Magic looks to me (I'm guessing) that it is an adapted C-Mount Machine Vision lens, adapted to M43 mount.
If I'm not mistaken, Machine Vision lenses designed for 1" sensors should work on Super16 when adapted, and 1" is not much bigger than a Super16 sensor.

However, the lens is marketed as a true M43 lens, and SLR Magic has some impressive shots on Vimeo where no color cast is visible at all.
It might be that the footage from SLR Magic is corrected in post, but when comparing to the video that is posted here, the difference is night and day. Maybe the lens in this thread is just faulty ?

Here's the vimeo video of this lens :
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Kim Janson

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostFri May 12, 2017 8:20 pm

I have not tested much, but what I have the Olympus M.Zuiko 7-14mm f/2.8 ED Pro is pretty good
LeViteZer Smooths the movement, www.levitezer.com
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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostSat May 13, 2017 12:16 am

John, you got the 10mm SLR Magic Hyperprime f/1.4 or the Olympus 12mm f/2.0, or the more expensive Voightlander 10.5mm f/0.95 Nokton MFT lens. Good, Fast, wide and cheap are not always available at the same time, good, fast,and wide equals more $. :roll:
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Uli Plank

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostSat May 13, 2017 4:00 am

A 7.5mm f2.0 has been announced by Laowa (Venus Optics).
Judging from their previous products they make pretty good stuff.
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John Marksman

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostSat May 13, 2017 7:30 am

Uli Plank wrote:A 7.5mm f2.0 has been announced by Laowa (Venus Optics).
Judging from their previous products they make pretty good stuff.


Thanks Uli! Will check this out.
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Alex Klutchevski

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostSat May 13, 2017 12:50 pm

For largest FOV it is best to find a super 16 lens at 5 - 6 mm. There are also very rare to find 3.5mm for super 16, which ones will give you super fisheye and strong distortions, but I prefer super wide 5-6mm rectilinear.
It is best to find super 16 lenses because they are faster and sharper for this task.
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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostSun May 14, 2017 5:38 am

I thought of those lenses :? Alex, along with the 8mm and 9.5 Super Speeds, but they will vignette on the Micro 4K sensor, which is a little larger than the Micro Cinema/Pocket camera sensor. I tried the 9.5 Zeiss, wa a no go. The Elite 9.5 just barley covers the 4K sensor, with a slight darkening in the corners.
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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostSun May 14, 2017 9:33 am

That's why I suggested the Loawa. It's made for MFT, so it should cover very well.
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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostSun May 14, 2017 4:14 pm

Yes Uli, an excellent suggestion, I thought, and will keep it in mind if I ever need something that wide!
But the OP,is using this for chroma key (Green Screen) shoot, which from my experience is contradictory, as youmwant as little DOF as possible when shooting in tight spaces, to keep the green screen out of focus. The wider the lens, the harder this is going to be, moving the camera closer to the subject with a Ultra wide like 8mm, will add edge distortion also, so it becomes a "catch 22" situation.

So not knowing exactly what the OP's shooting situation is, it becomes hard to make lens recommendations, other than giving him the simple responses we have been giving him. He has already discovered a wide lens at smaller f/stops like f/4 and smaller doesn't work with a wide like 8mm. So he needs a very fast f/1.8 to compensate, which contradicts his requirement for "small lens" as Ultra wide and fast do not normally equal small. The SLR Magic Hyperprime 10mm is about as small as I have seen in a fast ultra wide, and it is 77/80mm at the front, as are most of the S16 fast ultra wides.
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rick.lang

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostSun May 14, 2017 5:16 pm

I'm tending to agree with Denny's logic. Shallow DOF is important here, so you just can't achieve that in most situations with a very fast ultra-wide lens. You do want a lens that can focus fairly sharply wide open on your subject. And since the very wide lenses will get you close to your subject, you don't want to be so wide that your subject's nose at some angles is going to dominate any shot. My guess is a fast 10mm is better than 12mm to suit the OP's requirements, but not the slower 8mm I had suggested.


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rick.lang

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostMon May 15, 2017 2:30 pm

Here's sample footage that shows Angēnieux 10mm f/1.8:
https://vimeo.com/groups/blackmagic/videos/217376861



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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostFri May 19, 2017 6:19 am

This is a nice demo, shot on the Micro Cenima camera, which has a smaller sensor than full gate S16 and the 4K Micro Studio, which has a sensor slightly larger than full gate S16. Also it was cropped in post to a wider format that16:9, which also shows less of the corner edge of the sensor and less of lens Projected image area. The Angie 10mm is a very nice lens, but not sure it will cover the 4K sensor. My Zeiss 9.6 Super Speed didn't and you could see a darker corner in 16:9 full sensor on the Micro
Studio. This is why I got the Elite 9.5, it does cover the corners on the 4K sensor.
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Alex Klutchevski

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostWed May 24, 2017 10:12 am

Angenieux 10mm vignettes even on pocket and micro cinema. Thats why there is cashe. Also it is fixed focus, but anyway c-mounts has ability to focus by unscrewing lens a bit from mount.
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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostWed May 24, 2017 11:27 am

If you want an oldie, rather get the 10mm Cinegon with the 55mm front thread.
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Alex Klutchevski

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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostThu May 25, 2017 3:30 pm

Uli Plank wrote:If you want an oldie, rather get the 10mm Cinegon with the 55mm front thread.


Absolutely true. Or the cine-nikkor 10mm f1.8. Covers entirely pocket and micro also. Schneider Cinegon has more modern look, will match with glass made from 90's. Cine-Nikkors are better if you plan to match them with retro zooms made until 90's.
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Re: Largest FOV for Black Magic Micro 4k?

PostFri May 26, 2017 5:56 pm

Yes, the Nikon Cine 10mm is a great little lens also, forgot about that one, $200-500 on eBay.
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