Super16 to Super35 PL expander

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Dante Harbridge Robinson

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Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostTue Jun 27, 2017 7:42 pm

Hi everyone
I've happily been using Super16 Lenses with my BMPCC and Micro Cinema cameras. I'm now thinking of Upgrading to the Ursa Mini Pro, and wondering if it's possible to keep the same lenses.

Has any cinematographer here ever used a PL expander/doubler to successfully get S16 lenses to cover S35? I've always thought the lenses resolved more than 1080p, as they produce moire without the OLPF; and Im now hearing about people shooting 4K on the Red Epic-W with Arri Ultra16s.

Am I crazy or could this work? :D
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Tristan Pemberton

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Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostTue Jun 27, 2017 11:30 pm

There is this, but I'm not sure if it'll work with S16 lenses.

https://www.lensadaptor.com/mtf-pl-2x-extender

This may work too, but same question regarding S16 taking lens.

https://www.ducloslenses.com/collection ... cts/2xtele


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Howard Roll

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostTue Jun 27, 2017 11:51 pm

No reason it shouldn't work. S16 has the same ffd as S35. Its an expensive piece of glass though. IBE makes one as well. Sometimes you'll find a used doubler from Century, Optex, or Abakus for about 1000 US. The big thing is the 2 stop loss, a wide open 2.8 is a bummer for a prime.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 1:07 am

If your S16 lenses are PL mount, you can use them as is on the camera in 2K window mode. I was considering this approach also, then get some of the SLR Magic APO PL Cine primes they have out for shooting full size sensor on the UM Pro.

As Howie stated, the doubler, is actuall a tele Converter (the reverse of the Speed Booster) which enlarges the projected image circle of the lens by 2X. So it would depend on the lens, of this will be enough of a increase in the image circle,to cover the UM Pro Sensor. May cover in 4K window mode, but not likely full sensor. You need to do the math to see what the coverage will be, based in the image circle of the lens you want to use.

In addition to 2-stop loss, you lens IQ may be effected or softened also.
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rick.lang

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 1:13 am

A Speed Booster focal reducer may actually increase the resolving power of your taking lens, but expanding the image circle will likely significantly reduce the resolving power. You may be happier with a lens designed for Super 35 frames, but you may need to wait for a deal.


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Tristan Pemberton

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 1:44 am

I use my Canon 8-64mm T2.4 with my URSA Mini 4.6k PL.

As Denny mentioned, it covers the 2K window of the sensor just fine. So essentially I have a shoulder mounted S16 2K camera with 15 stops of DR. For my event & doco work, it's a great combination. Lovely character to the lens, plus it's light, fast, has a great range and is well balanced.

As good as that lens is, I'm certain it wouldn't resolve 4K very well.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 6:48 am

I'd second the suggestion of using them as they are on the windowed sensor. We are doing it too with classic Arri/Zeiss Superspeeds on Red. As nice as these lenses are, they were made for (S-)16mm and such analog film never came close to 4K resolution, while modern sensors can pack their photocells quite close (only at the cost of sensitivity).
You'll spend a lot on the converter and will be disappointed by speed and resolution, I'm afraid.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Howard Roll

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 7:33 am

You shouldn't lose anything resolution wise going from s16 to s35 using a (perfect) doubler because you are doubling then halving essentially. The problem is going to be losing 2 stops and having to shoot wide open. I've had a couple of the Canon 8-64s and the happy place was 4-5.6, 2.4 was mushy and 2.8 was noticeably soft. Any vintage S16 lens (aren't they all vintage now?) is going to be soft until you close down a couple stops. For a prime it's going to be 2-2.8 for a zoom more like f2.8-5.6, now double the stop and its going to be little silly. Ultra 16s might look great but those are practically unicorns, is it really worth renting Ultra 16s and a doubler over just renting the correct lens to begin with? Unless of course you just happen to have a $50,000 set of lenses in your mom's garage then yes get the doubler.
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Dante Harbridge Robinson

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 9:22 am

Good to hear your thoughts guys.
Does the URSA Mini Pro actually have a 2K crop?
Tristan and Uli I'm looking for a similar setup to the one you describe. Tristan do you shoot the 3K mode and just do a crop on that?
I'd love to see clips of that setup.

I use a Canon 10.6-180 which I love for the speed of use and very filmic colours. Maybe it's just me but from looking at URSA Mini Pro footage it seems it's very easy to make it look like video, but I'm starting to wonder if this is just lens choices and the colours they let through.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 2:52 pm

The Ursa mini has a 2K/HD crop and it's covered fine by S16 lenses, at least the ones I own.

You can expect more or less what you get from the Pocket with the same lens, while on a Red you can use 3K with many lenses.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Denny Smith

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 4:16 pm

Howie, I agree, and using the S16 lenses with a doubler wide open will be soft, is what I was referring to n my previous post, when I said the results will have less "resolution or sharpness,. Yes, stopping them down on the doubler will sharpen them up, but I still think given the cost, no real advantage here doing this. You will get better results just using them in 2K crop mode. :mrgreen:
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Dante Harbridge Robinson

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostSat Jul 01, 2017 6:55 pm

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cGzptIyidj0
Just found someone using Super8 lenses on the S16 BMPCC with an expander lol.

I think I will stick with trying to get as much resolution as possible in crop modes.

I looked at buying Ultra16s and surprisingly there are some affordable ones to be had, but only in the less useful focal lengths like 6, 8mm. I can't find and 25, 30 or 50mm ones.
All the Super35 zooms I've researched are either pretty heavy, are too expensive to own or have no character and look video-like. So for now I'm sticking with the S16 zoom. I'm hoping the 3K crop used for anamorphic on UMP may give more res than the HD crop which I think may be smaller than S16. The whole idea is I'm trying to get supersampled 2K to get rid of aliasing that I feel gives the BMPCC footage an odd texture when looked at very large.

I wish there was a custom crop creator!
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Denny Smith

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostSun Jul 02, 2017 6:24 pm

The HD crop is smaller than S16, closer to Std. 16, the 2K crop is closer to S16 projection gate size, so the 3K crop should have good coverage and be closer to the Micro Studio sensor size.
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Howard Roll

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostMon Jul 03, 2017 1:23 am

I prefer over sampled images as well. A 1.4x expander might get you closer to 3k and only cost a stop. Your zoom might be a little slow but it's not like there are any fast s35 zooms either. You could also put the canon lens you've got on an mft cam and see what kind of coverage you get. I think mft image circle is probably pretty close to the 3k window.
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rick.lang

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Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostMon Jul 03, 2017 5:06 am

The diagonal of the UM4.6K and UMP sensor 3K window is 21.99mm. The diagonal of MFT is 21.64mm. Anyone who wants to shoot 3K on the URSA Mini 4.6K sensor with anamorphic primes such as the SLR Magic 2x Anamorphot primes must be wishing they had the option of an MFT mount on the UM cameras. I didn't realize they were so close in terms of the diagonal.

The diagonal of the BMMSC is 14.98mm


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Denny Smith

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostMon Jul 03, 2017 5:37 am

Thanks Rick, I guess I was a little off on the 3K window.
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rick.lang

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostMon Jul 03, 2017 3:27 pm

No problem, Denny. Finally made me look into it since shooting 3K even without an anamorphic lens could be visually interesting for its unusual aspect ratio of 6:5. Seeing that the diagonal is a very close match to MFT could make many people adopt a UM4.6K camera variant in the future if it offered an MFT mount especially those thinking of shooting 2x anamorphic. Sure the numbers might not be huge, but you never know until the option exists. That 3K option is a perfectly economical way to shoot anamorphic since you don't waste any photosites like you will doing anamorphic on a native MFT sensor. 3K 3072x2560 6:5 -> 6144x2560 12:5 which is 2.4:1 widescreen. All those photosites will be used to downscale to a colour-rich DCP 2K widescreen presentation.

Of course BMD could offer an alternative if the 4.6K sensor was operational in a Blackmagic Micro Pro Cinema Camera, but that's been discounted as infeasible due to heat management.


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Howard Roll

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Re: Super16 to Super35 PL expander

PostMon Jul 03, 2017 3:35 pm

Yeah maybe they build an ROÍ scaler into the next model and let dudes shoot whatever they want.

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