4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

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Jonathan Murphy

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4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostMon Jul 24, 2017 3:48 am

Does anyone know this?
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Christopher Dobey

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostMon Jul 24, 2017 2:27 pm

I do not know, but:
Atomos has the 4K30p Ninja Flame and then had to release an entirely new Ninja Inferno to support 4K60p. Much more processing power is needed to allow for the higher frame rate, as well as more cooling. Just look at the 4K30p Production Camera 4K vs the 4K60p URSA MINI, it's about twice the size and has a much larger fan and heat sink.

I would imagine BM would need to release a hardware updated 4K assist, and not just a firmware update to record 4K60p.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostThu Jul 27, 2017 6:25 am

If they do, watch out for new 4kp60/50 camera.
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Denny Smith

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostFri Jul 28, 2017 5:11 am

Yes, the current VA 4K is limited by hardware to its current resolutions/frame rate. A firmware upgrade will not give a feature that is not supported by the hardware. Also, current SD cards do not support the data rate of a 4K 60p ProRes file, you are going to need some very fast media to capture this frame rate at 4K.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostFri Nov 24, 2017 1:09 am

I wonder if the SDI type used an carry 60fps?

As for data rate, it depends. You can use the 4kp30 estate for p60, but have tonbe able to process double the pixels at the start of the process (unless there is some specific hardware restriction, I don't think it is such a problem). So, some part of the sensor circuit could be restricted. You might never get a 4kp60 upgrade in any of these restrictions. But raw 4kp60 output should be able to fit the same SDI bandwidth.

I think, as with all these BM products, if only they did p48/p50 standard, that would be a great improvement, even in a 2.35/2.40:1 cinema widescreen format. I imagine they could possibly do that on a pocket.
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Denny Smith

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostFri Nov 24, 2017 5:21 am

For 4Kp60 uncompressed data rates, you are going to need a 12G SDI interface. The VA4K only has a 6G SDI, which only supports up to UHD 2160p30, or HD due to the interface hardware limitations. Next, you are going to need a SD UHS2 card that will support the ProRes HQ data rates required for 2160p60.

Also, I do not think the VA 4K records uncompressed Video, which would be required to record Raw.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostFri Nov 24, 2017 11:05 am

Yep, not compressed.

As I thought about SDI. But, you can fit double the pixels using Bayer versus 4:2:2 Denny, it will fit. I knew a guy about 12 years ago trying to do the first SDI RAW Bayer recorder, and was writing a paper for the method.

As for the 4kp60, you can drop back the quality and use the same compressed data rate as 4kp30.

As for Raw. Does the VA 4k use a reprogrammable compression chip? If it's like the cameras, it should be reprogrammable to Raw, and may archive 4kp60 like that.

But really, the MS sensor should be opened up as much as possible while being replaced with something better. The 11 stop is a deal breaker for me. I even recommend 12 stops fur cheap consumer cameras (then again, I also recommend 2/3 inch 12 bit 50fps as a minimum quality consumer standard, but nobody is listening to me anyway :) ). If there is a hdr video mode, it should be opened up with four settings: Quality (off) ENG, Sports, Rubbish (Evidence gathering/security footage). It might do up to 16 stops. But a newer sensor will likely do up to 14-16 stops native plus another 4-5 HDR. They likely will do 12 bits, but maybe only at 4kp30, and 10 bits p60 (seriously these are the sorts of things I see on Sony consumer sensors).
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Denny Smith

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostFri Nov 24, 2017 6:25 pm

Yes, nice ideas, but the BM Studio and Cinema camera’s are not sold as consumer cameras, so BM is raising the bar a bit on its output quality. Uping the compression, reducing the data rate, etc will always allow for more options, but at what cost? :roll:

The JVC LS300tried this, and it was not the success JVC had hoped for. Similarly, the EVA1 got higher frame rates by dropping the bit depth to 8-bits, and this is and the highly compressed recording codecs going to hold this camera back also.

So yes, their are lots of options that can be done...
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostSat Nov 25, 2017 3:27 pm

It's different Denny. The LS300 had woeful datarate, and I would imagine even at 4kp60 at 4kp30 datarate, the VA4k would be clearly better. It's possible if the VA4k can be reprogrammed to compress 4kp60 raw, it could possibly be even better again (raw data is half the size to start with, so at the same compressed data rate it is half the compression. Professional quality virtually starts at top end bluray datrates (144mb/s on 36mb/s h264 X 4 to scale to uhd) double that, depending). So, the professional bar is rather low on the bottom end. The sensors, outside the mobile ones, are better and professional when recorded unrestricted. The mobile ones, are still professional enough, and frankly there just a base thing.

I imagine they are planning something, we'll see.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostSat Nov 25, 2017 4:32 pm

Actually that Cineform is opensource would be very interesting to see implementation of Cineform Raw in all cameras and recorder. I used in past (2009) SI2k, that send a CFraw data between a simple lan cable, be cause CFraw is very otpimized codec raw.
To me would be a better solution to keep high quality and less space/data rate require.
If you think about mechanical disk where we record 2kraw in 2009, i think today we can do more with 4k, and more...
In past i remember a very expansive recorder with cineform codec, but today, since ten years later...
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Denny Smith

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostSat Nov 25, 2017 5:12 pm

But that is my point, the LS300 and GH5 sensors are good, but their recording codec/data rate is terrible!
You need to use an external recorder to get anything decent. So the Micro Studio is not that far off, now that it has Raw (sort ofmsnyway) just had a nice film log to the mix, and get the dynamic range upped by two stops. Carlo, Cineform would be interesting, and a recorder supporting this might work.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostMon Nov 27, 2017 12:32 pm

I see Denny. Yes, it would be an improvement.

But guys, news about cibefirm raw, it that the rawversuon requires sort of a $20 a unit royality fee under the vc-5 standard version, straight from David's finger tips. Modest even during a pocket. If I had a pocket I would pay $20US just to upgrade the firmware to confirm raw. I wonder if this because Red spied the a patent to use raw on resolutions 4k and abibde (don't laugh, this actually happened, tragically).

I don't know what it is like compared to the present RAW codec used to the pocket and other cameras, as a lot of years passed and the competition may have gotten better. See, when David invented it, confirm had been a system designed to use leads hardware resources to compress, so it would work on PC's etc. But, he also made raw was also a simple implementation . Compared to jpeg2k, which Redcode was based on, it was far out there. Then red licensed it for the new version of redcode, and it was then far out there, and BM didn't licence. Like there was a patent cross licence agreement between Micron/Aptina (which I suspect Red got it's Redone, MX, Dragon etc sensor technology from) and Sony. So Sony gut access to micron's low heat and high speed technology, and BM doesn't use Sony or the Micron sensors (now through a new entity). A shame, the subsequent Aptina derived stuff after the one in the MS, C have been good for cheap performance.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostMon Nov 27, 2017 12:37 pm

Ah, I forgot. Good to say things for a reason.

Maybe with modern ProRes and the Bayer compression used here, cineform might not be better enough to justify changing to it. Also, wavelet based compression uses a different hardware set to normal compression, and I don't know if the cameras or VA are set up to be able to use it.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostMon Nov 27, 2017 6:30 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Ah, I forgot. Good to say things for a reason.

Maybe with modern ProRes and the Bayer compression used here, cineform might not be better enough to justify changing to it. Also, wavelet based compression uses a different hardware set to normal compression, and I don't know if the cameras or VA are set up to be able to use it.


i use cineform from 2003, and i can tell you that during these years grow a lots, i used it to edit and produce DI from Viper, arriflex, red, dng of BMD cameras, and the ability to encode raw and mangare with active metadata raw value in a simple .mov clip, with scalability of data rate without produce newer files give me the winner solution to edit raw with less power.
During years codec grow, like Newman explain in cf paper, and raw encoding is quite good, with the full wavelet ability of cf, i did many visual experiment, with difference blending mode from original to CF files in FS2 compression, and from raw, from uncompressed media to CF FilmaScan2 version i not found big limits of editing color or other.
Now like Davinci user i need to access to raw file, to edit like raw, actually is possible on old davinci windows version thanks to free plugin that allow you to bypass edit by an ofx and allow to manage raw editing with metadata active, without it davinci manage cineform raw like a common video be cause is a CF engine that debayer and process files, not davinci.
Kineinfinity, Si2k use in past and today cineform raw like main codec to encode files in camera, Cinerecorder was in past a very expansive way to encode directly cineform from cameras, but today that is simplier to implement cineform license, i hope to see cineform in as many tool as possible.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 4k video assist ever going to get 4k 60p via firmware?

PostTue Nov 28, 2017 2:53 am

If it is better than what they are using, I say go for it. I'm an admirer of what confirm archived, it is along the same simplicity lines of my design philosophy. People just don't want to to do the complex work of simplifying things comprehensively for performance and others.

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