New Camera?

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Cedric Akins

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New Camera?

PostFri Aug 11, 2017 6:48 am

I am wondering if there are any plans to update the BMPCC to a better sensor that shoots 2.5K-3K? It is a great little camera, I own two of them. And I enjoy shooting with them. However, it is still 1080p. I would buy another one of these with an upgraded sensor and in natural lighting they can have a ton of dead pixels in any given frame. A better sensor that captured a clean raw image is just a thought. I know that this question has been asked several times but I was just asking anyway.
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rick.lang

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Re: New Camera?

PostFri Aug 11, 2017 1:18 pm

Certainly a common request. Look for something at IBC 2017 or NAB 2018 etc. Taking a smaller die of the 4.6K sensor would sell very well in the BMMCC or BMPCC or BMCC. Currently the 4.6K sensor and the processor to handle it may generate too much heat for the smaller cameras. But if you can be patient, you may have something you like in the future. It may cost more though. Having a sensor larger than your deliverables is a great feature that you'll love when it comes.


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Denny Smith

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Re: New Camera?

PostFri Aug 11, 2017 5:51 pm

The next update of the Pocket camera will be need to be at least a 4K sensor, according to BM. They have no plans to offer a lower resolution camera at this time, according to recent reports from BM. The only current update of thrnPocket camera, using the same sensor, is the Micro Cinema camera which does have a newer, faster and slightly better video processor, which solves some of the moire and rolling shutter issues of the BMCC and BMPCC.

BM has also stated they currently have not been able to find a suitable 4K sensor for new Pocket/Micro camera.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: New Camera?

PostSat Aug 12, 2017 11:01 am

rick.lang wrote:Certainly a common request. Look for something at IBC 2017 or NAB 2018 etc. Taking a smaller die of the 4.6K sensor would sell very well in the BMMCC or BMPCC or BMCC. Currently the 4.6K sensor and the processor to handle it may generate too much heat for the smaller cameras. But if you can be patient, you may have something you like in the future. It may cost more though. Having a sensor larger than your deliverables is a great feature that you'll love when it comes.

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Like the J1 cmpMera many years ago with a cheap Ambarella 4k chipset at 220 mb/s. A step above the Yi 4k+. I would like to see the next to m43rds. Or using a phone chipset recording Raw, for under $1000.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: New Camera?

PostSat Aug 12, 2017 11:11 am

Denny, they have two suppliers capable of doing it, one with much better technology then in the present 4k. But, whatever they call themselves now Altima or Sony sensors are what the need to source cheap. Go and look at the axiom camera sensor list, maybe a bit outdated now, but see how hopeless these non Sony sensors are. There must be heaps of m43rds or smaller sensors available, are they looking for s35. They might as well do a hydrogen multicamera, and get 4 good phone cameras.on a mobile chipset in a video assist or light 16 like design and call it a day. There are some non crappy small sensors around. They could contract out the manufacture to a mobile phone factory and get a sub $1k camera out.
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Nick Gombinsky

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Re: New Camera?

PostSat Aug 12, 2017 4:41 pm

So you want a camera that feels good on the spec sheet but pretty much sucks when you actually try to use it? Imagine these forums when they try to use a new BM camera with a cellphone chip and struggle to get professional results...
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Denny Smith

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Re: New Camera?

PostSat Aug 12, 2017 6:28 pm

The issue isn't that there are not any 4K 1-inch sensors, there are. The issue for BM as they stated it, is, the available sensors did not give the results and Cinematic look that the current 2K sensor gives on the Pocket/Micro camera, that BM is looking for. :roll:
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rick.lang

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Re: New Camera?

PostSat Aug 12, 2017 8:50 pm

Size (of a photosite) matters!


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Chris Chiasson

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Re: New Camera?

PostSun Aug 13, 2017 12:44 am

I've noticed the Blackmagic Production and 2.5K cameras are gone from their site. Maybe we're finally getting something new in those areas. That, or they're just discontinuing them, and there's no DSLR competitor for them.

I hope they are. Even if they can't make a 4K Pocket right now, at least make a camera that's the same size of a GH5, but designed for Video.
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Nick Gombinsky

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Re: New Camera?

PostSun Aug 13, 2017 12:50 am

The Micro line could fall into that category, with some creativity... I really like them, even though they were designed the way they are so they can be mounted on drones, I think they give us the possibility of turning it into a real video camera with a monitor where you want it, the kind of battery you want, etc.

One of the things I hated about the DSLR era was that nothing was in the right place compared to a video camera... now with the micro we can create our own, without as many adapters, without so much weight on the wrong side.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: New Camera?

PostSun Aug 13, 2017 3:53 pm

Wish they keep current 1080p sensor but added OLPF, handle grip, large size user friendly buttons and joystick to control camera, LUT support, FPN correction, full sized camera connectors directed in correct position. Also lightweight 5" external monitor. I really prefer 100% clear 1080p RAW over 4k ProRes with moire, FPN and other digital artifacts. 1080p pros are less battery power, less heat, less data rate and less storage space when shoot RAW.

Currently almost all this can be done with BMMCC equipped with additional accessories and monitor with LUT support, but it takes a lot of time and rises total price up to $2.5K. But it is still less than any current cinema camera on the market that can shoot RAW and ProRes.

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Ian Henderson

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Re: New Camera?

PostSun Aug 13, 2017 4:22 pm

I'm currently looking at building one of these over a GH5. What bits is yours using?
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: New Camera?

PostSun Aug 13, 2017 4:40 pm

Ian Henderson wrote:I'm currently looking at building one of these over a GH5. What bits is yours using?


SMALLRIG BMMCC Cage 1773
SmallRig Universal Handle 1984
Side Handle with LANC REC/STOP button (see options here https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59874)
Arri Rosette Mount Module by RADIOPROEKTOR (currently under development)
Mosaic OLPF
Angle Breakout Expansion Box Module by RADIOPROEKTOR https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=56186
Angle HDMI Clamp Module by RADIOPROEKTOR https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=55124
Lanparte 15mm Single Rod Clamp
CAMVATE 15mm micro Rod Mount
SmallHD 501 monitor
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Ian Henderson

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Re: New Camera?

PostSun Aug 13, 2017 4:49 pm

Amazing - thank you.
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Denny Smith

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Re: New Camera?

PostMon Aug 14, 2017 12:25 am

Dmitry, I hope you get your Arri Rosette Mount Module by RADIOPROEKTOR (currently under development) finished soon, it is the only bit I am missing to complete your rig idea. I have worked out a connector for the Small HD monitor to connect it like you show in your illustration above, brilliant idea BTW.
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Clayton Von Isaacs

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Re: New Camera?

PostMon Aug 14, 2017 5:55 am

Didn't Grant mention in a video that they are going to do it but the technology isn't there yet to do a 4K one, which is what they want to do?
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Denny Smith

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Re: New Camera?

PostMon Aug 14, 2017 4:49 pm

Yes, yes he did... So what Grant was basically saying was, no new Pocket/Micro S16/1-inch sensormtype camera until they could do a 4K one, as BM has no plans (currently) to develop any more HD sensor cameras. As mentioned in another thread, it would be nice if NM would develop the current sensor, or do an upgrade, to get a 2.5K S16/1-inch sensor camera with global shutter, like the Micro was supposed to have when it was first announced.

Unlike SD when HD came out, I (and many others) do not feel HD is dead, it is still a viable resolution, most markets are still using HD, and even Cine projection is still currently 2K. There is more to a good quality image than how many photo-sites you have, GS vs RS, tweaking the 2.5K to get a good full 2K HD image recorded, with well controlled artifacts like FPN, etc is more important than 4K, 6K or even 8K, as most viewers can not tell the difference in a finished video anyway. I can see the need to use higher resolution sensors on cameras for major Cinema release projects, but even Arri is staying below 6K

You could see a difference between SD and HD, but UHD is hard to distinguish from HD, unless you are looking at a grading monitor up close. So why the rush to make everything UHD or higher :?:
I would like to see BM work on improving the IQ of their existing HD and 4.6K sensors, and concentrate on solving the FPN issues, get GS working, and develop a next generation HD 1-inch sensor camera with GS. :roll:
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rick.lang

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New Camera?

PostWed Aug 16, 2017 6:29 pm

2K/HD delivery isn't going away soon, but very nice options when you capture in a higher resolution like raw 2.5K or 4K.


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Jim Giberti

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Re: New Camera?

PostWed Aug 16, 2017 9:06 pm

Having added a couple of Micros to our setup I just want to reinforce the comments about it and 1080 here.

Aside from the idiotic little buttons, the Micro can quickly be set up as a world class HD camera. And the value of recording to a larger sensor aside - HD is where all of our work ends up. Outside of Red, Arri and high end Sony cams, there's nothing else like the BM image and codecs; which is of course why so many of us are just waiting for a 4k small BM incarnation when it can be done.

I've always had big camera systems but now I love small cameras and smaller lens systems. UMP is as big as I like, but really only for commercial work, not field work.

Anyway regarding the Micro vs current small sensor 4k options, specifically Sony and GH - there's no comparison in terms of an emotional, cinematic feel, IMO. I've bought two small sensor 4k cameras in the last couple of years and no matter how I tried (and trust me I tried) I couldn't get them to match the BM image quality.

I posted this on the BMC forum recently and may have some value. Because we produce a lot of real time, action and doc work for clients I wanted one, small system, right through to the lens that could move on a monopod at any time. I built a simple Micro, Ikan Vl35, Oly 12-40mm system with a Smallrig cage and LCDVF.

The whole thing was around $2k and it has everything from false color and peaking at the touch of a button to 3:1 raw, slow mo, a (full fram equiv) 35 - 115mm 2.8 lens and it weighs about 2 lbs and cuts beautifully with UMP and any BM footage.
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rick.lang

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New Camera?

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 5:37 am

Jim, when the BMCC was first available, it was apparently hard for most professional cinematographers to take seriously (with some amazingly talented exceptions). The Pocket also seemed interesting but a bit of a holiday toy rather than a serious camera. Of course it sold extremely well anyway. When the mighty URSA camera was released, finally BMD had a camera that generally was well regarded as a serious camera on set, although beginning to be considered a heavy camera as the industry moved towards lighter cameras. The URSA Mini is a lighter camera but not a lightweight camera! However I must admit when I shoot with it, I do get a lot of respect that this is a serious camera. And my results are usually decent and seen in a favorable light.

A 4K/2.5K URSA Micro would still be a welcome camera continuing the trend to lighter highly capable cameras, but the Mini is certainly in a sweet spot getting people's attention if that helps promote your work. The BMD colour science may not be perfect, but in my limited experience as a viewer (not as an operator), only ARRI's images are consistently superior for a digital cinema CMOS Bayer CFA sensor.


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Kim Janson

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Re: New Camera?

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 6:49 am

In addition to sensor, there is many things that make a great camera, or not just a camera but a video making tool.

I am currently testing Sigma 18-35 and 50-100 1.8 Art lenses on BMMCC with 0.58 SpeedBooster. Very sharp f1.1 lenses even wide open.

The Micro camera expansion port provides control for the camera and lens and that feature is great, but it could be much better. It is not just camera, it is also SpeedBooster and Lens, they all need to work well together.

The taditional way is to have an expensive manual control lens with gears, to attach expensive follow focus, zoom and Iris systems. The above mentioned 1.8 Art lenses are 1/4 of the price of the cinematic T2.0 version of the same lens... and then you need to add the follow focus systems...

Why is that. modern lenses have good and smooth operating focus and iris motors. It is just the control that is not that great.

For good lens control, the Camera, the SpeedBooster and the Lens need to support that. Unfortunately that is not quite the case today.

The 50-100 1.8 provides smooth iris control, it still has the steps, but it moves smoothly in between the steps and often this provides a good result. The 18-35 1.8 does not have this. Both of them provide usable, but stepping focus control, not great. Some native MFT lenses provide very good focus control.

So why does this not work, why do we not have excelent lenses like the above mentioned with good electrical control. There is no technical reason for that and it would not reguire any additional HW, just SW.

There is the Canon EF protocols that are not available for Camera, Lens and SpeedBooster manufactures and these manufacturess do not co-operate. Sure, Sigman could make their own protocol that would provide perfect lens control and the same lens could have also the EF protocols. There is no technological reasons not to and they could make this protocol available for SpeedBooster and Camera manufactures and together they could make perfectly working lens control without any expensive, big and bulky follow focus gear. But I gues Sigma wants to sell the same lenses as 4X price for cinema use...

Not many camera manufactures provide any documented interfaces, some provide LANC, but it is really something that should already go a way, it is very limited control it provides.

BMD provides the Expansion port on Micro cameras, but why not on other cameras? BMD provideds Arduino SDI shield and it really provides good control for BMMSC and probaly some other BMD cameras I have not tested, but why do they not provide the same level of control on Expansion port. Again, there is no technological reason for this.

So when thinking the above lenses, the f1.8 Art versions together cost less than 2000 euros the 2.0T version arounf 8000 euros + folow focus system, same lens, different housing and control, but the f1.8 Art lenses have already very good housing.

Would it not be great to have a camera that would provide smooth control with the f1.8 Art version of the lenses :)

Ps. all the above mentioned gear, lens, camera, SpeedBooster is FW upgradable, so if they wanted, they probaly could make it work even with the existing gear.
Last edited by Kim Janson on Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jim Giberti

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Re: New Camera?

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 7:00 pm

rick.lang wrote: The URSA Mini is a lighter camera but not a lightweight camera! However I must admit when I shoot with it, I do get a lot of respect that this is a serious camera. And my results are usually decent and seen in a favorable light.

A 4K/2.5K URSA Micro would still be a welcome camera continuing the trend to lighter highly capable cameras, but the Mini is certainly in a sweet spot getting people's attention if that helps promote your work. The BMD colour science may not be perfect, but in my limited experience as a viewer (not as an operator), only ARRI's images are consistently superior for a digital cinema CMOS Bayer CFA sensor.
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Agreed.
I sometimes forget that I'm in a somewhat unique position comared to a lot of BM people I talk with online. Because I own the fiirm that produces the work there isn't anyone I need to be concerned with regarding the tools we use. I'm the arbiter regarding 4k and HD as far as aquisition and delivery.

I love the UMP but I use it with bigger lenses like the 18-35mm and 50-100mm and bigger primes w/SB.
But we shoot so much work that requires a lot of real time aquisition that small and light is just as important. The fact that, in my experience at least, there isn't a small camera that I can shoot straight MFT lenses and fly on monopods, the Zhiyun, small sliders in remote and challenging situations - that can match either the Pocket or Micro - they are the cameras I use for 1/2 of our work. And the fact that the micro can cut so well with the UM makes it ideal.

That's the reason I mention the Micro/12-40mm/Ikan setup. It's a really fast and intuitive system to shoot with in changing conditions, covers a great focal range and w/ the smallrig cage it's rugged, light and small but again - raw, prores, 60p to SD cards.

Yeah, that's why a cropped 4.6 senor version of the micro (just please improve the buttons) would be kind of an ideal next evolution. If it could grow to MFT sensor crop as well as mount would be all the better and probably not unrealsitic.
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Shane McGee

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Re: New Camera?

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 10:51 pm

Screen Shot 2017-08-17 at 3.46.12 PM.png
Screen Shot 2017-08-17 at 3.46.12 PM.png (225.59 KiB) Viewed 1929 times


Probably no real relevance regarding a new camera model but...I wonder why FilmTools is advertising the Micro Cinema Camera as "Limited Quantity Remains"? Sort of implying there will be no more coming? Doubt that.
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Justin Jackson

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Re: New Camera?

PostFri Aug 18, 2017 4:57 pm

Hey all,

I am a bit late to this..but I have been trying to figure out what camera to go for... I bought the ATomos Ninja Inferno to handle 4K 60P to DNxHR codec, loving that thing. But, I am torn now between the GH5.. and what I was hoping to originally do was the BM micro 4K camera setup. I dont know now if that will even work as I only have HDMI input, though I suspect I could get an SDI to HDMI converter in between and make it work?

At any rate, the GH5 will put out 10bit 4:2:2 SLOG for what I understand is near RAW quality (still reading/learning what all this is). From the footage I have seen with GH5 and Atomos, recording SLOG (I think it is SLOG) it looks very much like RAW... (if anyone cares to explain the difference would appreciate it :).

By the time I am ready to buy a camera, I suspect the GH6 may be out, which I am hearing rumors may support 6K video, but rumors are meant to change.. so who knows.

The other thing that has my panties in a bunch is all these youtubers that are shooting 8K RED RAW.. WTF? So I am wondering with that going on now, if BM might consider an 8K sensor in the next year or so.. which I suspect might drive the cost of a 4K to 4.6K down.

I am still absolutely baffled why 8K cameras are being used today.. other than for big budget movies with huge editing/rendering machines, nobody has 8K displays..and wont for several years to come.. and the only thing 8K gives to 4K is the ability to adjust shaky footage inside the 4K frame.. at least as far as I can tell. Anyway, I know BM is usually ahead of the game with new cameras and price points, so I was hoping a 6K to 8K camera might be announced this year or maybe next.. and like you all would love to see a 4.6K pocket camera.. preferably with an S35 sensor if that is even possible (heat and all).
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Denny Smith

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Re: New Camera?

PostFri Aug 18, 2017 5:25 pm

Well, 8K is more of a shooting resolution, to be downcoverteed to 4K for distribution. There is no rush to buy a camera with higher resolution than 4-6K, as that offers p,eat your of resolution for most delivery requirements, which are K or 2K. Actually, the human eye can not distinguish between 4K and anything higher at most normal viewing distances. Even in recent audience texts involving film students, many picked a high end HD TV over a middle of the road 4K TV monitor.

So for what most of us do, (non big budget Hollywood type peoductions) 4K is more than enough resolution. What is more important in a camera after you get to full 2K HD, is the camera's ability to deal with sensor artifacts, and the color science being used. Raw is even more than what most of us need, good codecs like ProRes and SLog can be effectively used and graded to meet individual requirements.

Justin, as far as using the Inferno with the BM Micro Studio camera, get the Atomos Connect SDI to HDMI adapter, that attaches to the back of the Inferno, in one of the battery slots, and yiumcsn piggy pack a battery on the the top of the Connect adapter. You not only get SDI to HDMI conversion, it adds a color bar and test pattern generator, audio 100Db reference signal to check camera, recorder setup.

Howie and I use the Video Devices PixE with the Micro Studio camera to get some very nicely saturated ready to use color footage, with a nicely balanced color science, similar to a graded Ursa Mini 4.6 footage. Shooting 4K and dropping it down to HD, allows some flexibility in editing, including resizing the frame, adjusting composition and doing some "zoom in" effects. Once the footage is rendered out in HD, you can not see the difference, and the edits are blended nicely together.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: New Camera?

PostFri Aug 18, 2017 5:45 pm

Justin Jackson wrote:The other thing that has my panties in a bunch is all these youtubers that are shooting 8K RED RAW.. WTF? So I am wondering with that going on now, if BM might consider an 8K sensor in the next year or so.. which I suspect might drive the cost of a 4K to 4.6K down.


More K won't make you a better cinematographer, and it won't make your footage look any better.

I highly doubt that BMD will be releasing an 8K sensor that soon; in addition to there being very few of them out there, most of them made for computer vision rather than for film, it's also a HUGE data rate which requires custom image processing and recording hardware presently. BMD's not going to launch an 8K camera until it can do so at an indie friendly price, so it might be a while.

Not that it should matter, since nearly every major film today is still being finished in 2K and up-rezzed for 4K releases, and still the number one camera in Hollywood is the 3.2K Super 35 Alexa line. Red's 8K is mostly a big-budget extravaganza thing, while most of the Hollywood folks who are using Red cameras are using 6K cameras. 8K nearly doubles the data rate from 6K... it's a BIG jump.

Plus, the cameras that are encroaching on the Arri/Red dominance are also 4K -- Varicams. I expect to see C700s in the Netflix arena also (I believe that they've been approved, as have the UM 4.6K cameras).

8K sounds nice and all, but keep in mind that the current "cheap" 8K option is a Red Epic-W, whose body costs $30,000. And that doesn't even include lens mount, monitor, or any kind of port (e.g. power, video, audio, etc).
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Denny Smith

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Re: New Camera?

PostFri Aug 18, 2017 5:50 pm

And the new Panny EVA-1 is on,y 5.6K, resized in camera to a full 4K acquisition/recording. So, I agree, 8K is not happening any time soon... :roll:
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Kim Janson

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Re: New Camera?

PostFri Aug 18, 2017 5:55 pm

"...that are shooting 8K RED RAW.. WTF? " :D

Well what advantage you saw on those YouTube videos thanks to the 8K RED RAW being used.

I think the only reason to do something like that is to get attention...
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Denny Smith

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Re: New Camera?

PostFri Aug 18, 2017 5:57 pm

My thoughts exactly Kim! :roll:
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Justin Jackson

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Re: New Camera?

PostFri Aug 18, 2017 9:40 pm

Agree with you all on the 8K thing! To me it is just showboating. There is no benefit at all other than downsizing.. but while 8K to 4K must look great.. why not just stick to 4K.. or 4.6K from BM to 4K. And like many of you said..the workflow is a monster. I do think a nicely built ThreadRipper with NVMe drives and such can handle that now, but there is no purpose to it that I can see.

I was just talking about how I am using a Sony AX53 consumer camera (just bought it.. still setting things up) for sports videography feeding the clean HDMI to the Atomos for better quality recording.. and from what I am reading, as well as a few I talked to.. nobody is even touching 4K for this type of stuff. My end goal is to make video highlight reels for kids to give to scouts/coaches for college, as well as provide high quality review video for the coach to share/go over with the teams. It is still way overkill..but my thought was.. for a bit more money than I was allowed to spend, I have future proofed myself for several years to come.. and I can now wait on the GH6 or something else perhaps coming in the next year or so before buying a cinema capable camera. I have wanted that dang pocket camera since before it came out.. missed that one time half price deal still kicking myself over that, but now that 4K is what everyone is moving to, I cant bring myself to buy the HD stuff any more. So I am hoping that there is a 4K or 4.6K small form camera coming. In fact, I even thought.. since I am using Atomos for recording.. and am about to plunge in to a full VMount battery system to power things.. maybe the micro camera would be worth while to get 4K cinema quality.
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Jack Fairley

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Re: New Camera?

PostFri Aug 18, 2017 9:55 pm

Kim Janson wrote:I think the only reason to do something like that is to get attention...

This, and to play with the toys. Unless you are distributing in 8K, which nobody does, that money could be spent improving a different aspect of production, with a better return.
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Kim Janson

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Re: New Camera?

PostSat Aug 19, 2017 3:24 am

There is one thing I can think of 8K video having advantage in near future. That is 180 degree video and 360 video.

I think either 180 or 360 will not replace anything it is something different, but could have some uses also for traditional film

This was with 250 Euro Samsung Gear 360, no stabilizer, so the image quality is not great, but maybe you get the idea, the freedom 360 video provides on editing phase, though done a bit extreme on this video :D



BMD clearly shoved some interest for 360 Video at NAB 2017, so maybe something also on that front in future.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: New Camera?

PostSat Aug 19, 2017 2:10 pm

Yes, 360 video does benefit from 8K since it's for the entire sphere of view.

There are some advantages in recording in 8K, but if you're in the budget range where you're debating it with envy, you won't be able to afford the FX team to reap those benefits.

However, since the 4.6K cameras are on the Netflix approved list people debating them should really stop complaining about the fact that BMD doesn't offer 8K and just start working on their craft. Netflix tests the cameras, it doesn't just go by specs.

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