Blackmagic Forum

I purchased the BMD Ursa EVF with my Ursa Mini and i've used it a total of 2 times.

twice.

i just don't like closing one eye, taking off my glasses, feeling around for control buttons.

am i doomed from proper operation?
for the same price, i could have gotten a SmallHD see-in-the-day monitor!

Adam, I haven't used one of those high nit monitors and I'm sure I'd like anything fully featured and around 1500 nits. However there may be times when you have an advantage with the BMVF. For example, if the sun is above and behind you, it may still hinder the usefulness of an external monitor for critical focus as it shines back in your eyes. And when you shoulder mount the Mini, the BMVF may be a better option.

Not sure why you don't want to remove your glasses since the diopter adjustment on the BMVF covers a wide range that easily accommodates my vision correction.

Having both eyes open while using the BMVF may just require some muscle memory retraining. When the Mini is on your shoulder, your left eye can remain open to follow the scene while your right eye concentrates on the detailed BMVF OLED HD image. When tripod mounted at times your left eye can serve the same function but often when open at the angle you have your head, it may be looking at the floor. But your brain is a marvelous instrument that can just ignore information that's irrelevant. After awhile of forcing your eyes both to remain open, it will be more natural and relaxing.

After giving it a fair shake to adapt to the BMVF, if you still hate it, sell it and buy the SmallHD model of your choice. You're not doomed to use the BMVF because you have it.

The one major constraint of the BMVF is the lack of flexibility in position of the eyepiece. Sometimes you can't really reach it to use it as intended. In those situations, I've set it to false colour and looked at it from a distance to monitor exposure while I've opened up the internal monitor for focus and framing. So still useful then. And that Wooden Camera BMVF conversion looks very tempting now my warranty has expired.


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rick.lang wrote:Adam, I haven't used one of those high nit monitors and I'm sure I'd like anything fully featured and around 1500 nits. However there may be times when you have an advantage with the BMVF. For example, if the sun is above and behind you, it may still hinder the usefulness of an external monitor for critical focus as it shines back in your eyes. And when you shoulder mount the Mini, the BMVF may be a better option.

Not sure why you don't want to remove your glasses since the diopter adjustment on the BMVF covers a wide range that easily accommodates my vision correction.

Having both eyes open while using the BMVF may just require some muscle memory retraining. When the Mini is on your shoulder, your left eye can remain open to follow the scene while your right eye concentrates on the detailed BMVF OLED HD image. When tripod mounted at times your left eye can serve the same function but often when open at the angle you have your head, it may be looking at the floor. But your brain is a marvelous instrument that can just ignore information that's irrelevant. After awhile of forcing your eyes both to remain open, it will be more natural and relaxing.

After giving it a fair shake to adapt to the BMVF, if you still hate it, sell it and buy the SmallHD model of your choice. You're not doomed to use the BMVF because you have it.

The one major constraint of the BMVF is the lack of flexibility in position of the eyepiece. Sometimes you can't really reach it to use it as intended. In those situations, I've set it to false colour and looked at it from a distance to monitor exposure while I've opened up the internal monitor for focus and framing. So still useful then. And that Wooden Camera BMVF conversion looks very tempting now my warranty has expired.


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thanks for the wise words! i'll try to give it another go

No, you are doomed, doomed! Well, not really, I have been using EVFs for more than 20 years, as there were no Odr options for on the shoulder shooting, or shooting outside. I also wear glasses, and have found most eye cups can be rolled back, to allow,you to get the glasses next to the eyepiece. Make sure you set the diopter correctly, so you can see the EVF display. You are very lucky, with an OLED EVF, should make using it much better than the old CRT EVFs of old!

Seriously, as Rick pointed out, it takes some practice and a little training to get the hang of using a EVF. Give it a go. Also, you can get thrived party eye shields that go,on the EVF, and allow you to get your glasses inside the envy, blocking out stray light, similar to an over size eye cut, useually made of material, not rubber, and Velcro onto the EVF. I have the E-Cuf, used one for years, they come in serval sizes and work great for eye glass wearers. See http://www.i-cuff.com/reviews.html
Cheers

Both eyes open with the EVF. If you can't learn that then yes you are doomed.

Stephen Press wrote:Both eyes open with the EVF. If you can't learn that then yes you are doomed.

Yes indeed. You HAVE to be able to use it with both eyes open at times - your life may depend on it.

Adam Langdon wrote:I purchased the BMD Ursa EVF with my Ursa Mini and i've used it a total of 2 times.

twice.

i just don't like closing one eye, taking off my glasses, feeling around for control buttons.

am i doomed from proper operation?
for the same price, i could have gotten a SmallHD see-in-the-day monitor!

adam, let me know if you'd like to sell your EVF. I've been looking for a deal on one.

I personally prefer to operate with an EVF because I beleive it allows me to concentrate on composition. It's also a more consistent reference for exposure and colour balance, immune to the changing ambient colour and brightness.

Maybe people also prefer to operate from screens and monitors and for some it's prefered because you can see more of the environment around you.

There's no right or wrong, and at least if you own the EVF you can choose either option.

It might also help you to get a better EVF mount to allow you to put the EVF into more comfortable operating positions.

Something like this mod that also improves your connectivity to the EVF.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/contro ... ku=1208718

JB

Could have used that Wooden Camera BMVF conversion kit in yesterday's shoot as I experienced the problem I mentioned in my earlier post not being able to operate the camera and reach the BMVF. Used it to monitor false colour from a distance and struggled to see the 5" monitor in bright sun, but I got my shots. Praise Grant!


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I prefer EVF because it helps me become one with the camera while operating. Precision and repeatability are essential, as is operating with both eyes open.

Seriously though if you can't shoot with an EVF I wouldn't hire you. I wouldn't recommend anyone else to hire you. That might seem harsh but I don't believe you can do some aspects of the job properly without an EVF. So why would I hire anyone without a complete skill set?
You really do need to get comfortable using an EVF if you want to progress in the industry. Honestly its not hard just a matter of practice and I'm sure once you see the benefits you will grow to love the EVF, especially one as good as the OLED on the BM... and it is good.

There are so many situations where using an evf isn't suitable; steadicam, gimbals, cranes, shooting in tight spaces. I love using monitors because I feel a lot safer when moving with the camera, I can look around easily. I feel lucky being in an age where you can get 2000 nit monitors that work when the sun is shining directly on them.
It would be cool if BMs next URSA Mini had a detachable monitor. It would keep the weight down and allow other placement options.

It's not like I shoot every day though, it's not my day job, I'm genuinely curious about which aspects of the job can't be done properly without an evf

On the shoulder shooting for starters...
cheers

For on the shoulder I just mount the monitor to one side of the matte box and set up the rig with a very low centre of gravity and balance perfectly in front of and behind the shoulder.
To be honest I come from a drawing and painting background, so seeing a composition on a monitor reminds me more of that
I'm sure perhaps it's personal preference but monitors work fine for me

Sure you can make a monitor work, but it is akward. Also, you are loosing your third point of contact with the camera, and will have reduced camera control. For good on the shoulder shooting (and most tripod work) you need to become one with the camera.

The EVF gets you tucked into the camera, you can see the camera settings, your image frame, timecode and audio display, etc. also your head contact with the EVF helps to steady the camera and puts you in the correct shooting stance, one foot forward, knees relaxed, elbows in... etc. You can stand up with your feet together, but you are not as stable. Same with a monitor vs EVF, you can do it, but not the best, or the most stable way to go.
Cheers

Any "career" operator would beg to differ on preferring a monitor for the reasons already mentioned.

Yes there are times when an external monitor is better, but from a craft and movement point of view, I don't know any professional operators that prefer to work off of monitors unless they have to.

When you look through an evf it's about how connect physically to the camera, how you interface with it, how you move it. It's the same with many elements like the hand grips, the shoulder pad, the position of the handles, the material the handles are made from. Your whole body is more connected to the camera when you're looking through the EVF.
https://flic.kr/p/pFz1Gq

Having both eyes open
https://flic.kr/p/8NFkYd

Operating from monitors tends to happen more with the "out in front" dslr style shooters who are used to having a camera held in front of their chest.
https://flic.kr/p/fa8bZ6
https://flic.kr/p/pXNnwn (using a cine saddle for stability)
https://flic.kr/p/hbu7Mi (when it's light enough)

Having a monitor in a position that is viewable when the camera is on your shoulder usually means having the to put the camera in a very awkward position in terms of balance fore and aft. In my experience, so that you're not testing your close focus capabilities, that means the monitor ends up out in front of you and it's often in front of the matteboxe, depending on the lens being used.

A lot of RED users also started shooting this way, simply because the early RED EVF's weren't very reliable and were very late shipping. Same again with the EPIC, they EVF was delayed like nearly 2 years.

https://flic.kr/p/6eG76v
Relying here on an after market EPL. When operating a geared head like this the rod keeps the EVF in the same place no matter what the camera is doing. You'd have to take the monitor off board for that to happen on a geared head.


Having to shoot EPIC without an EVF
https://flic.kr/p/pXN6A4

Operating a camera is a very personal choice about how you dress and balance your camera.
https://flic.kr/p/p2bQam


As I mentioned, most operators that make a career from being operators, prefer to use an EVF, but there's no rules to say you can't make a go of it if that's how you prefer to work.

JB

Thanks John and Denny for sharing some wisdom.
I loved the comprehensive write up.

You are welcome.
Cheers

so much useful information here... i don't like EVFs either.... but thanks guys a lot for your answers, i really found it very helpful. would you mind if i am going to ask some other questions for you to ask in the future?

You are not alone.

It really depends on what was the first device you got used to working on.

I worked on an industrial video where the young-ish director told the DP that he could not work with an EVF. I found that an odd comment but then realized that if you got into the industry using a DSLR with the screen on the back, that is what you know and feel comfortable with.

I find that one of the advantages of the EVF is that it is another point of contact to steady the camera when doing hand held. Using the head to rest the camera against.

Lets not forget that as you get older the eyesight changes and eventually you need an assistant to hold the monitor 2 feet away.

Hey all,

So this may be a little out there.. and I am not one to use that little eye thingy either.. much prefer my Atomos 1500nit LCD with a hood (mind you.. I am just a fan of BM..dont actually own one of their cameras..yet). But, given all the stuff going on with AR/VR and the use of things like google glasses (the new version) in many industries... what are the chances a single eye LCD/OLED device that fits over glasses (in some manner) and either via wifi or wired connection allows you to just wear the thing rather than having to use the one on camera?

Like I said.. probably a bit far fetched, but it seems to me the use of the LCD and/or eye piece are ripe for replacement with something like what I am describing. Something like this would certainly be adjustable in some manner to fit over one eye (like how VR/AR is done today, but only one eye instead of both eyes) to handle glasses, while offering the ability to stream whatever the lens is seeing? I am sure the technology exists today to do this, just havent seen anyone put forth a device like this.

Thoughts?

I agree, it is only a matter of time, before Google type heads up displays will replace traditional monitors/EVS for many applications, but not all situations. What an EVF does, that no other type of monitor will do (short of using a full hood on a monitor aka radar screen style) is isolate the camera operator from the background surroundings, allowing her/him to concentrate on the shot infront of them displayed in the EVF, with all surrounding distractions removed.

A EVF also allows the camera operstor to get in close to the camera, becoming one with it, shooting out any camera movements. Once you practice and learn how to use an EVF effectively, you will not go back.
Monitors are nice for long locked down takes, or using in a TV Studio situation, where you are following the action and keeping your camera framed on the shot. But, even in a TV studio, I always used an EVF to get critical focus, the one time I didn't, a slightly soft take on a one shot pre-recorded interview bit me in the...

With the new high definition screens available, combined with 200 or 400-percent punch in for Focus, makes pulling a good focus on a monitor more doable now, but I still like to check the focus with my trusty EVF!
Cheers

Justin Jackson


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... ition.html

An early Garret Brown prototype steadicam...he didn't want to let go of the EVF either...
and


Still didn't want to let go of it...

(these are optical fiber optic links by the way, not electronic EVF's.

JB

Wow! That little thing is cool, pricey given that it doesnt seem to be quite what todays HD VR goggles are displaying and soon 4K (or 3K?) displays will show.

That is amazing back in the day they used those with optical connections. I didnt even know optical connections existed way back then in the 70s!

Ok..good to know I am not completely off my rocker with the idea. I suspect that eventually they will be good enough to use in most situations. I totally get it about how the EVF allows you to block out distractions..I would suspect that a dual eye VR (or even single eye..though not sure how well that would work) would do the same thing.. but then I am also going to assume using EVF with one eye and other eye available for surrounding stuff is the best of both worlds.. allowing you to move/walk without tripping, while still tuning things out with the other eye.

Google heads up display glasses do not block out the background, the one I have seen, just displays a screen over your normal image of what is in front of you, so you see a "floating text or graphics" display overplayed in a transparent background.

So not sure this would work well for video work, unless the background can be blacked out. So all you see is the display. Then you would only want this on one eye so you can choose to see what is around you or see the video display, this would be more like a EVF. You would also need a hood between the eye and glasses element screen to block out surrounding light, focusing your attention on the display image.

Interesting idea however!
Cheers