Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

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Ole Vestergaard Jensen

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Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostTue Aug 22, 2017 9:01 am

Hi Black Magic,

Is there any solution to the massive delay (8 frames!) issue in headphone monitoring? All of our photographers (mostly VJ's) are complaining about this all the time and we really need a solution to this bug.

Can you tell me if its something that you are working on in a new firmware update or is it something that can't be fixed in a firmware update?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostThu Aug 24, 2017 3:36 am

First of all, this is a user forum, not the BM Supoort site. Next, audio,delay as measured on the Ursa Mini/Pro is about 3 frames. This is caused by the fact that you are monitoring the audio signal after it has been processed and merged/sync'd to the video (think gap difference between record and playback heads on a audio tape deck, same issue, slight delay on the recorded signal vice the imputed signal.

The only way to monitor audio without delay, is to monitor the audio pre-processing, which is a switchable option on most ENG cameras. However on the Ursa Mini and Pro, you only get processed audio monitoring, which is what a sound recordist wants to hear, that is why the Audio guys wear big earphones to block out the on set sound to hear only what is coming from the headphones as it is recorded, to make sure it gets recorded distortion free, etc.

As far as camera operators go, you can learn to adapt to the delay with time, and get the hang of listening to the recorded signal, while following the action. Having the Camera Operator monitor audio is not always,the best option, better to have a dedicated sound guy, on a field mixer, sending final audio mix to the camera, and monitoring the return audio from the camera. That is why camera audio break out cables are used between camer and audio person, include two audio XLR cables and a return 1/8th unbalanced line return, all in one expensive cable. From the mixer, the audio tech. can switch between pre and post processed audio on the filed mixer, which can switch between the audio return from the camera (post/recorded audio) and pre-pricessedmaudio sent to the camera to be sure they match. ;)

Generally, BM does not speculate about possible changes and upgrades to its equipment until,it is ready for release. :mrgreen:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Tim Schumann

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostThu Aug 24, 2017 4:58 am

Denny Smith wrote:Generally, BM does not speculate about possible changes and upgrades to its equipment until,it is ready for release. :mrgreen:
Cheers


Denny is spot on here...

The audio is locked to the video so what you are viewing is in sync.
We have been looking into latency on the Pro for live event use and we are confident that we can improve on it substantially.
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Stephen Press

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostThu Aug 24, 2017 5:38 am

Tim Schumann wrote:We have been looking into latency on the Pro


... and the Mini???
"A cameraman with out a camera is just a man"
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rick.lang

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostThu Aug 24, 2017 5:43 am

Looks like the MIni Pro gets priority on firmware updates since it's release. Someday maybe the Mini 4.6K will get an update to bring it on par with the Pro when feasible.


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Rick Lang
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Ole Vestergaard Jensen

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostThu Aug 24, 2017 7:30 am

I know that picture and audio are in sync when looking into the viewfinder or LCD. But I would much rather have a audio signal in sync with people around me :) This is pretty much standard for all other types of cameras right?
The delay is really distracting when you're working on your own in the field.

We have been looking into latency on the Pro for live event use and we are confident that we can improve on it substantially.


I really happy to hear that :)
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Adam Silver

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostThu Aug 24, 2017 3:53 pm

The Mini Pro uses a different audio processor, I believe, so it may not be possible to make any changes on the Mini. Just a thought.

Adam
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rick.lang

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostThu Aug 24, 2017 4:20 pm

Adam, I was feeling so upbeat on this beautiful day in paradise that we call Victoria... until you poured a chilling does of reality on my dreams of a perfect firmware update for my humble URSA Mini 4.6K!

You're probably right, but as Alexander Pope observed, "hope springs eternal."


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Rick Lang
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Denny Smith

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostThu Aug 24, 2017 5:52 pm

Yes, yes it does Rick :!:

Ole, only consumer and most Prosummer cameras monitor audio pre-processed. Pro cameras useually are selectable or are just Post Recorded audio like the BM Mini Pro. In professional recording practice, a camera operator monitors the video, a sound person the audio, and the director gets the works.

All TV Production cameras have some delay, so post audio and in sync video is only monitored in the control room. In the studio pre-processed video only is monitored by the camera operators and floor director, so what they see and hear from the live audio from the taken are in sync. Camera operators are wired to a headset for director instructions in one ear, the live talent audio in the other ear.

Field production cameras are designed for what they are being used for, so you either get pre-processed monitoring at the camera, post in the media center, or for ENG type work, the camera operator is the audio person, so post processed Studio is synced with the EVF, and thismis what the camera operstor looks at and hears. I used special ear buds, that block ambient sound, so I can only hear what is coming from the camera. As a camera operstor, this is what you need to do, so you know what is being recorded.

You need to learn how to shoot in a professional workflow, if you are using Pro gear like the UM Pro, which is not a Prosummer camera. If hearing the ambient sound is disruptive to you, get some sound canceling headphones to block out the ambient sound. Eventually you will learn to block it out, and learn to concentrate on the feedback (audio/video monitoring) the camera is giving you. :mrgreen:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Adam Silver

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostThu Aug 24, 2017 7:19 pm

Sorry Rick! lol Anyway, as some of you may remember, I came from a Canon 5D Mark III, and the audio delay really bothered me. Now I'm used to it, so it doesn't bother me.

I still want BM to improve the audio I'm hearing through the headphones. I have it turned down to 9%. I'm using a Sennheiser MKE 600. The actual recorded sound is really awesome, but monitoring it in the headphones sounds horrible because I can hear a lot of sound as if it's recording an omnidirectional mic as opposed to a shotgun mic.

Adam
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Denny Smith

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostFri Aug 25, 2017 2:17 am

Yes, the audio monitor amp is not very good, unfortunately. This makes checking the audio a little tricky. If you have a Video Assist or SmallHD monitor, you can get a better audio signal (imbedded audio on the SDI signal).
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Adam Silver

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostFri Aug 25, 2017 5:33 am

Denny Smith wrote:Yes, the audio monitor amp is not very good, unfortunately. This makes checking the audio a little tricky. If you have a Video Assist or SmallHD monitor, you can get a better audio signal (imbedded audio on the SDI signal).


Hi Denny,

If I'm still recording audio into the Mini Pro, could I just monitor the audio on the Video Assist 4K? That's the video assist I have. I really only use as a monitor if I'm not looking through the EVF.

Adam
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rick.lang

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Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostFri Aug 25, 2017 5:36 am

Adam, perhaps in the documentation that came with the camera, you may find the coverage of the mic. You may find that some frequencies are captured as you expect from a shotgun, but other frequencies are picking up sound from the sides. I have that happen when I use the MKH416--very good picking up sound from a distance as you would expect, but also good picking up some conversations off to the side.


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Last edited by rick.lang on Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rick Lang
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Denny Smith

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostFri Aug 25, 2017 5:44 am

Adam, yes, that is the point I was trying to make. You can monitor video and audio on a VA 4K while recording on the Ursa Mini, and by-pass the noisy monitor amp on the UM. The VA has a headphone output jack on the side, 1/8-inch stereo.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Adam Silver

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostMon Aug 28, 2017 4:57 am

Thanks Rick and Denny! :)

Adam
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Tim Schumann

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostThu Oct 12, 2017 1:13 am

Tim Schumann wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:Generally, BM does not speculate about possible changes and upgrades to its equipment until,it is ready for release. :mrgreen:
Cheers
Denny is spot on here...

The audio is locked to the video so what you are viewing is in sync.

We have been looking into latency on the Pro for live event use and we are confident that we can improve on it substantially.
Camera 4.5 has been released today and is available on our website. It has substantial improvements in it for latency. Picture is still locked to audio but you will notice there is now less than a frame of latency on your monitoring.

We will look at whether we can add this improvement for the Mini now too although we still need to work out whether it is possible.
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James Alexander Barnett

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostThu Oct 12, 2017 5:40 am

Tim Schumann wrote:
Tim Schumann wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:Generally, BM does not speculate about possible changes and upgrades to its equipment until,it is ready for release. :mrgreen:
Cheers
Denny is spot on here...

The audio is locked to the video so what you are viewing is in sync.

We have been looking into latency on the Pro for live event use and we are confident that we can improve on it substantially.
Camera 4.5 has been released today and is available on our website. It has substantial improvements in it for latency. Picture is still locked to audio but you will notice there is now less than a frame of latency on your monitoring.

We will look at whether we can add this improvement for the Mini now too although we still need to work out whether it is possible.


Please, please, please look into this for the UM 4.6k, I ordered mine the week it started shipping only to wait 9months for it to arrive, then 6months after having the camera you release the pro which would of been much more suited to my needs.

I’m happy with the camera but to see all of the updates to the UMP and the SSD recorder it hurts a bit to be honest.
James Alexander Barnett
www.jamesalexanderdp.co.uk
URSA Mini 4.6k
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Tim Schumann

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostThu Oct 12, 2017 7:22 pm

Hearing you loud and clear James.
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James Alexander Barnett

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostFri Oct 13, 2017 6:30 am

Tim Schumann wrote:Hearing you loud and clear James.


Thank you Tim. :D
James Alexander Barnett
www.jamesalexanderdp.co.uk
URSA Mini 4.6k
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rick.lang

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostTue Oct 17, 2017 1:31 pm

That’s encouraging. Looking forward to firmware release 4.6 on the URSA Mini 4.6K camera! Serendipity.


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Rick Lang
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Ole Vestergaard Jensen

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Re: Audio delay issue in Black Magic Mini Pro

PostWed Oct 18, 2017 9:47 am

Tim Schumann wrote:
Tim Schumann wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:Generally, BM does not speculate about possible changes and upgrades to its equipment until,it is ready for release. :mrgreen:
Cheers
Denny is spot on here...

The audio is locked to the video so what you are viewing is in sync.

We have been looking into latency on the Pro for live event use and we are confident that we can improve on it substantially.
Camera 4.5 has been released today and is available on our website. It has substantial improvements in it for latency. Picture is still locked to audio but you will notice there is now less than a frame of latency on your monitoring.

We will look at whether we can add this improvement for the Mini now too although we still need to work out whether it is possible.



THANK YOU!!! We have updated our 3 Mini Pro cameras today and the latency is almost gone.

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