CineForm Codec is Open Source now

This is big news, because this means we could finally get a robust true CineForm workflow from capturing to mastering.

https://gopro.com/news/gopro-open-sourc ... form-codec

And the source code on GitHub:
https://gopro.github.io/cineform-sdk/

It would be really great if Blackmagic considers implementing this codec now into their hardware and software products.

hi hope this enable third part to encode cineform raw easely.
i have a full license of cineform, raw4pro exactly be cause cineform raw was and will be a great raw compressed (visually lossless) codec, with scalability without proxy and more in every tools.
i hope now that blackmagic add full cf lib (resolve 14) mean that they thought about optimized media like Dng-> cf raw, is a simple tool that just exist in cf tools, also in free tool, they only integrate in Resolve.
i hope, we hope

I even had 3 licenses of CineForm. During that main time I'd used CF, it gave me always at least half the size of ProRes with similar image quality. But CineForm footage took only a quarter of the CPU power to play 4k compared to ProRes on Windows 7.

Finally! Now maybe ProRes and DNxHR with their asinine licensing restrictions will go away at last!

Finally! Now maybe ProRes and DNxHR with their asinine licensing restrictions will go away at last!

Does Cineform include an alpha channel that is read correctly by NLE and color apps?
At the moment, ProRes4444 is my go to for alpha channels because it renders exactly the same in all the apps I use.

Does Cineform include an alpha channel that is read correctly by NLE and color apps?
At the moment, ProRes4444 is my go to for alpha channels because it renders exactly the same in all the apps I use.

It supports alpha channels, yes.

Does Cineform include an alpha channel that is read correctly by NLE and color apps?
At the moment, ProRes4444 is my go to for alpha channels because it renders exactly the same in all the apps I use.

It supports alpha channels, yes.

That's great. Do the major NLEs read those Cineform alpha channels properly? Does Resolve?

That's great. Do the major NLEs read those Cineform alpha channels properly? Does Resolve?

I think they do. A lot of NLEs support it as long as it's installed on the system, both for render and ingest, though I don't know if they support its full suite of options.

Does Cineform include an alpha channel that is read correctly by NLE and color apps?
At the moment, ProRes4444 is my go to for alpha channels because it renders exactly the same in all the apps I use.

It supports alpha channels, yes.

That's great. Do the major NLEs read those Cineform alpha channels properly? Does Resolve?

If Software use standard protocols from codec installed in OS can read and save alpha channel in cineform from ever. it's a codec, and good of it is that it was very well concepted.

This is big news, because this means we could finally get a robust true CineForm workflow from capturing to mastering.

I think for everyone on Windows this is big news, hope it gets love from the camera manufacturers.

On the PC all manufacturers need to implement codecs and their alpha channels to get away from the dangerous QT framework. On a Mac you just need to install the codec.

I have nothing but good things to say about CineForm, having used it as part of the AspectHD product back in 2006. It was magical how it allowed a then six-year-old Dell PC, that could barely edit DV, edit 720p HDV from our JVC GY-HD100. It's an incredibly clever codec, and I always wondered why it didn't see more widespread adoption.

That is, until now. I certainly hope all the manufacturers, including BMD, pick up on this incredible new access.

Does Cineform include an alpha channel that is read correctly by NLE and color apps?
At the moment, ProRes4444 is my go to for alpha channels because it renders exactly the same in all the apps I use.

It supports alpha channels, yes.

That's great. Do the major NLEs read those Cineform alpha channels properly? Does Resolve?

Yes it does. I use it religiously since 2006ish for long time storing my master files, and it's my favorite go-to codec for intermediates, when I bring AE compositions into Resolve.

Add me as another big fan! Great codec; used for years – especially useful when grading on the move with underpowered machines. Would be great to see basic colour adjustments in Resolve reflected in Cineform's Active Metadata!

Add me as another big fan! Great codec; used for years – especially useful when grading on the move with underpowered machines. Would be great to see basic colour adjustments in Resolve reflected in Cineform's Active Metadata!

there was an old ofx free to do that exaclty for resolve to cineform raw file, windows only
https://iaremrsir.wordpress.com/2015/04 ... i-resolve/
i don't know if it work today in resolve 14

there was an old ofx free to do that exaclty for resolve to cineform raw file, windows only
https://iaremrsir.wordpress.com/2015/04 ... i-resolve/
i don't know if it work today in resolve 14

Ah yes! I remember that. Macs never had access to Cineform RAW. Maybe all these things are now possible in Resolve? I do hope so.

there was an old ofx free to do that exaclty for resolve to cineform raw file, windows only
https://iaremrsir.wordpress.com/2015/04 ... i-resolve/
i don't know if it work today in resolve 14

Ah yes! I remember that. Macs never had access to Cineform RAW. Maybe all these things are now possible in Resolve? I do hope so.

I used to encode cineform raw on parallels machine, database of active metadata on dropbox shared between different computer, and move cf raw encoded file between mac and windows. Now that cf will be opensource could be possibile that every video tool add all capability of CF.
I remember to all that prores, h264, dnxhq/r had a lots of feature never implemented, for example the ability of cineform to reduce in realtime the resolution of data 1/2, 1/4 etc to host application are avaible also in all other codecs that i named, but... prores you have only finalcut the support of that, h264 i not know that are enabled on some editor, Dnxhd/r only in avid...
Implemented all Codec's feature is a long and not ever did work.

This is big news, because this means we could finally get a robust true CineForm workflow from capturing to mastering.

https://gopro.com/news/gopro-open-sourc ... form-codec

And the source code on GitHub:
https://gopro.github.io/cineform-sdk/

It would be really great if Blackmagic considers implementing this codec now into their hardware and software products.

I don't know what to say. I've spent $900+ per machine license on this way back in the day, only to have the company bought by GoPro which was dropping support for newer OS builds. - I guess great.

I don't know what to say. I've spent $900+ per machine license on this way back in the day, only to have the company bought by GoPro which was dropping support for newer OS builds. - I guess great.

me too, many years ago, go pro aquiring was a pain in ass, they destroy most of original Cineform advantage, and drop down commercial version with active metadata. I hope that now all info are public many other use the ideas and technology to back to the past (future) to have something that i did in 2009, and at today no other one give me similar tools...

Really hoping Cineform can be THE cross platform high end codec we're looking for.

Apple ProRes: cross platform playback, but troublesome encoding solution for Windows platform. And with Apple's history record, who knows what they will do in the future with this codec and licensing.

DNXHd: Cross platform both playback and encoding which is great. But Avid's future is an unknown from a financial view point. (Most certainly hope they do well financially as they are a big player in the profession.)

Maybe Blackmagic can be the influence that makes Cineform a viable defacto high end cross platform go to codec? Would seem like a good fit to move this codec along with the SMPTE standard Cineform has already been designated but not really widely implemented as far as I can see.

i add a new info, about prores dead : Premiere 2018 advise me when i output prores mov that Adobe will drop the quicktime support in the near future and suggest to use a different codec to output file to keep compatibility, told me on Sierra OSX.... On the mac, the place where quicktime was born...

i add a new info, about prores dead : Premiere 2018 advise me when i output prores mov that Adobe will drop the quicktime support in the near future and suggest to use a different codec to output file to keep compatibility, told me on Sierra OSX.... On the mac, the place where quicktime was born...

I think there's been a miscommunication there. Adobe have made it so that they support ProRes (and other .mov wrapped codecs) natively without requiring users to have old 32bit Quicktime code installed on their machines. ProRes will continue to work in CC2018 and beyond.

Does anyone know if there is an alternative to active metadata today? Maybe a free version of firstlight?
I have an old project with lots of active metadata.

I do hope Cineform gets picked up by camera manufacturers and editors alike. It was my go-to codec in the pre-GoPro days. It's really fast, and it's possible that it can be compressed more than ProRES/DNxHD with less artifacts. Better quality, less size.

Isn’t that the basis of R3D?

Isn’t that the basis of R3D?

David Newman, creator of cineform, develop that in 2001, active metadata in 2005, ages before r3d, he should do a legal action against red about these kind of patents.

And at today, the only codec that allow to grab Bayer data (raw) from one and convert in raw data to its raw (cineform raw). It allow to convert from red, arri raw, cdng, many photo raw format to cineform raw. It was innovative and after 15 years never replaced, but go pro kill it.


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carlomacchiavello. My understanding is that RED paid due licencing respect to the cineform intellectual property as a camera-recording system which was pioneered on the Silicon Imaging SI2K.

carlomacchiavello. My understanding is that RED paid due licencing respect to the cineform intellectual property as a camera-recording system which was pioneered on the Silicon Imaging SI2K.

with Silicon Imaging
in 2009 i used beta of 2x SI2k for 3d-stereo shooting in cineformRaw, i remember that Them told me they licensed from Newman Cineform codec to produce a chip based encoding cineform raw, and they develop the sensor matrix.
https://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalC ... mTech.html
unfortunately they never continue to develop along s35 project.
these cameras are amazing for that period, before bmd pocket, a s16sensor with raw recording for less 3000$. Danny boyle use them for many shooting of the millionaire, the first movie that win oscar for photography not shooted in kodak film strip.

Isn’t that the basis of R3D?

David Newman, creator of cineform, develop that in 2001, active metadata in 2005.

Yeah, who pointed him in that direction?

Isn’t that the basis of R3D?

David Newman, creator of cineform, develop that in 2001, active metadata in 2005.

Yeah, who pointed him in that direction?

Ehm Wayne I not understand your question?
Active metadata is a common photography raw, camera raw, aperture, and many other photo tools do that but relatively to single application use. The great ideas is to use the old 32bit QT library to manipulate data along reading to allow to every tool to read video data and in between elaborate it to debayering color, stereo alignment and more.
The lut in real-time, stereo 3d one file dual video stream and many others elaborations real time are what GoPro point when they buy cineform inc, but after few times abandoned software after closing developing. At today is a common DI like prores or dnxhr but only a shadow of real power, and also if is open source and free to implement on software, only 20$ fee if you want to add raw, no one grab and add cineform raw to his workflow.
I ask to everyone, do you Will pay 50$ to add another raw choice to your camera, that allow you to :
Small size with raw
Low cpu load
Lut previewable real-time from simple player and change on every software you load clip
5 different de bayering algorithm to optimize smooth and sharpening of shooting
Ability to proxy mode reading from same file and allow you to edit a 2k or 4K from usb2 hdd
A raw that are editable and readable from every video tool on Os

A dream? No this is what GoPro destroy in 2011
And I payed 1000$ to have it, in 2006.


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This guy pretty much sums it up:

Axel Mertes on Apple ProRes Raw and Raw HQ


While I see the release of ProRes RAW as a very clever move to enable already ProRes licensed camera manufacturers to enable a way of RAW recording to their camera fleet, with minimum requirements, I doubt it is the super clever format some seem to hope for right now. It will take less I/O, it'll not require the demosaic from Bayer to RGB, so it actually saves efforts inside the camera.

Saying this new codec is 6.x times faster than R3D is a bit of unfair. RED is stuck to JPEG2000 encoding. The by far best single frame encoding scheme available to date - bit rate vs. quality wise. However, the EBCOT bitstream entropy coding is fairly slow. GPUs, FPGA, ASICs all help and there are numerous hardware implementations, often driven by the begium team behind IntoPix (who already worked on the OpenJPEG in the beginning), who are also the heads behind TICO. However, ProRes will only enable this by either being not compressed or DCT compressed. Uncompressed is large, DCT can introduce artefacts.

TICO is a line by line wavelet codec. So you can decode a line at lower horizontal resolution, but you can only skip lines to decrease the vertical resolution. So itsa a 1D wavelet only. Not a big saving. Designed to enable 4K via HD SDI lines.

R3D/JPEG2000 and GoPro-Cineform/SMPTE VC5 are true 2D wavelet codecs. You can actually decode at lower resolution, with using less computing resources, and get a best quality downscale image, line/collumn skipping not spoken here. No other codecs can do this, no ProRes, no ProRes RAW, no DNxHD, no DNxHR or whatever. This is the MAIN feature of wavelets, and so many poeple out there still don't get it.

With ProRes RAW you'll need a beast of a machine, because you NEED to decode full res or you are set for line/column skipping to see proxies.
In fact, I can edit and play 4K, 6K or even 8K R3D on a 2002 HP xw8400 workstation or on my i7 notebook in its native format. I doubt I can to that with ProRes RAW of the same resolution source.
And Cineform/SMPTE VC5 is about 5-7 times faster than R3D, because this codec employs a much faster bitstream entropy coding (huffmann), which will give it that benefit. In other words, Cineform/SMPTE VC5 can be expected to be as fast as ProRes RAW (if told numbers remain true), but with smaller requirements for the playback hardware. And its open source now, while ProRes RAW will be proprietary. Big point IMHO.

On systems where I can edit R3D in 2K proxy, I can edit Cineform/SMPTE VC5 in 4K easily due to its speed benefit. Too bad RED and Cineform didn't manage a cooperation back in the beginning of RED...

Bottom line:
ProRes RAW is welcome to increase RAW recording options. However, I tend to transcode e.g. to Cineform/SMPTE VC5 RAW for better options in post for my workflow if I really need RAW. Or pregrade and go to e.g. Cineform RGB instead.

Misha, I feelthey made a mistake but concentrating on GPU processing early on. Now, GPU is widespread. A convenient step between CPU and ASIC. I tried to advocate this to David back then.

I feel, from discussions (not with cineform) that starting from the second version of Redcode, they have been using licensed cineform tech. Note, that Red is supposed to have a controlling patent of Bayer compression, through doney means, and a number of us don't agree with that, but you can get a $20 Bayer compression license off of cineform. How is that possible with Red is supposed to be in controll?

What we do need, is to strip out cineform and put in 3D+ wavelet technology (the third dimension being time. There is 7D or so out there).

I feel, from discussions (not with cineform) that starting from the second version of Redcode, they have been using licensed cineform tech. Note, that Red is supposed to have a controlling patent of Bayer compression, through doney means, and a number of us don't agree with that, but you can get a $20 Bayer compression license off of cineform. How is that possible with Red is supposed to be in controll?

it's your supposition?
David himself told that everyone can implement and use cineformRaw (software and Hardware) due a 20$ license, that mean that Red cannot advocade about original cineformRaw tech, and also if they licensed some tech, cannot impose or forbidden everyone to use his (david) tech.
here David release full sdk for raw compressed in the 25 october 2017
http://cineform.blogspot.com/2017/10/ci ... ource.html
https://gopro.github.io/cineform-sdk/
David is not a stupid, not risk a legal issue if is not sure to do the right thing against irascible giant like Red.

I feel, from discussions (not with cineform) that starting from the second version of Redcode, they have been using licensed cineform tech. Note, that Red is supposed to have a controlling patent of Bayer compression, through doney means, and a number of us don't agree with that, but you can get a $20 Bayer compression license off of cineform. How is that possible with Red is supposed to be in controll?

it's your supposition?
David himself told that everyone can implement and use cineformRaw (software and Hardware) due a 20$ license, that mean that Red cannot advocade about original cineformRaw tech, and also if they licensed some tech, cannot impose or forbidden everyone to use his (david) tech.
here David release full sdk for raw compressed in the 25 october 2017
http://cineform.blogspot.com/2017/10/ci ... ource.html
https://gopro.github.io/cineform-sdk/
David is not a stupid, not risk a legal issue if is not sure to do the right thing against irascible giant like Red.

As long as you keep the compression between 1:1 and 5.99:1 you should be okay concerning the RED patents.
Let's say we want to deliver 8k 120fps 420 in the comming years (like we do 2k 30fps 420 today, captured with a 2.8k ARRI ALEXA with ARRIRAW) with a bayer sensor.
8192h x 1.41 x 4320v x 1.41 x 16bits x 120fps ~ 136 Gbit/s ~ 17 GByte/s with 6 times compression you would need storage that can handle ~ 2.83 GByte/s which is already on sale for around $200/TB (Micron 9300). That is about 10.2 TByte/hour for ~$2,000 which is less than a 960 GB minimag that cost $2,350 on which you can shoot ~ 56 min at 6:1 30fps
The 1.41's are the debayering factors to get a near perfect rgb output.

Since CineformRAW requires around 7x less compute performance than REDcodeRAW the $1,400 24 core 3960x, should be fast enough to handle this codec in real-time.

Sadly for us, no one is going to use CineformRAW. (hopefully the Chinees will use it in the near future).

I see Misha. So Red claims a patent on existing technology above 5.99:1 to Cloke it as new? Curious. Does that mean anybody can do a 5:1 4k Bayer codec and be free from the red patent?

Doesn't that look like an admission in the patent that there was an existing competitor using Bayer compression in video at the time of application. Well, their specs on the resolution also is I'm similar way lining up with another existing competitor Silicon imaging camera, and their spec of frames a second lines up with previous usage at lower frame rates. If industry groups tried class actions the overall bill could be over a billion dollars. How do investors feel? The patent Office night also be brought in if the courts find something invalid, concerning diligence to voluntarily clean up patent portfolio's, to not clean up once reported, to not clean up when re-examination is requested, to not research and prevent from entering the patent pool in the first place. Applied across the patent archive, itt could easily add up to trillions of dollars across the patent archive of even beyond trillions of dollars, into the quadrillions, and every involved patent employee also have their assets up, every lawyer, every lodger and anybody involved. In terms of private assets, that still won't cover the actual damages from the activity. In the international system of trade regulations, such a case could bankrupt the country. A patent system helps a country grow, if done right, otherwise it can also do immense harm to industry.

I feel, from discussions (not with cineform) that starting from the second version of Redcode, they have been using licensed cineform tech. Note, that Red is supposed to have a controlling patent of Bayer compression, through doney means, and a number of us don't agree with that, but you can get a $20 Bayer compression license off of cineform. How is that possible with Red is supposed to be in controll?

it's your supposition?
David himself told that everyone can implement and use cineformRaw (software and Hardware) due a 20$ license, that mean that Red cannot advocade about original cineformRaw tech, and also if they licensed some tech, cannot impose or forbidden everyone to use his (david) tech.
here David release full sdk for raw compressed in the 25 october 2017
http://cineform.blogspot.com/2017/10/ci ... ource.html
https://gopro.github.io/cineform-sdk/
David is not a stupid, not risk a legal issue if is not sure to do the right thing against irascible giant like Red.

I think you misunderstood. The Redcode 2 was suddenly a lot more efficient, things shifted in the industry (I can't remember what, maybe it was Bayer compression licensing of a product). I seem to remember a conversation in a certain direction, maybe somebody here could elaborate. My memory is pretty bad from I'll health. But I have personally communicated freely with a number of players in the industry. Once again, I'm not putting David in the pot, as I don't think I was talking with him. But, maybe the other person was speculating, but just didn't relay it as so in a way that looked so.

But, I'm hypotheticising, that is could be that cineform is involved indirectly or directly with the red patent, that could be why they seem to orbit around one another without a legal fight. I'm not a patent lawyer to look through the ownership trail of the patents.

Wayne I can tell that David told, and what I can find on web from his word, obviously speculation on web are too large
About optimizations... I can grab red code and convert in cineform Raw, like any other raw, and I can see in cineform is more efficient than original red read and edited with sdk.
The opposite, converting x code in red code is not avaible (like every raw codec) the. I can’t do a proof that red code is more efficient on my computer.
The real power of red code against cineform is (to me) other tools, like denoise real-time internal of code, black balancing and many other tool tailored on red sensor.

Anyway unfortunately cineform seems near to dead, added to nle and other tools only like Di, but all good feature like raw, active metadataAM and firstlight seems lost for ever.


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Cineform is out there free, so can be used. At $20 a Bayer licensed I was surprised BM didn't take more interest in it, as it suites their higher end cameras, but probably a bit much for the cheaper cameras, or for mobile. A lot cheaper than what I was generously offered years ago, before Red.

Cineform compared to Red at the moment, is really like apples compared to deluxe apples. Now, obviously, even if Red uses cineform technology, that is not all there is to it, and Red has added a lot of extra quality features. Good on them. I had to debate with SI about noise reduction being a valid quality thing back at the beginning. Red has taken the advice, plus I also write a few things about how you could do new noise reduction comparisons circuites connected to pixels, and promoted the quantum multiplying thing in the earlier days. But still, watching h o c on Netflix I am troubled by the Red image, I don't like the colour cast, and the intro night scenes look more worrying than surrealistic to me. The yellowing statute looks painted on, but maybe that is my glaring TV.