raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

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Thuyen Nguyen

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raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostWed Nov 22, 2017 1:00 am

just read that the Micro Studio Camera 4K can now output raw. What blackmagic device is required to record the raw signal?
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Denny Smith

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostWed Nov 22, 2017 2:08 am

None, BM currently does not have a video recorder that can do this right now. Convergent Designs and Atomis both have a model that will. But then there is no way currently to unpack the data once you record it. So I would just sit tight and see how this is going to play out, and see who offered a way to convert the dsts to a useable file you can then edit.
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Thuyen Nguyen

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostWed Nov 22, 2017 2:35 am

Denny Smith wrote:None, BM currently does not have a video recorder that can do this right now. Convergent Designs and Atomis both have a model that will. But then there is no way currently to unpack the data once you record it. So I would just sit tight and see how this is going to play out, and see who offered a way to convert the dsts to a useable file you can then edit.
Cheers
That's a little strange, I'm sure they must have something planned, a bit of a useless feature otherwise. Best case scenario is that it will be compatible with ursa mini ssd recorder.
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Denny Smith

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostWed Nov 22, 2017 6:39 am

No, not as of now. The Ursa Mini SSD recorder mounts to the camera’s Sony type V Mount battery plate, and the 14.5 VDC V Mount battery in turn mounts to the SSD recorder piggy back. The Micro Studio uses a much smaller Canon LP-E6 (7.4VDC) battery, so not likely as it will not fit. Maybe a new recorder is in the works for the Micro Studio, or a new Video Assist (or firmware upgrade to the existing VA4K recorder). BM has also released the Raw Packing info for third party developers, and maybe relying on a third party solution.
Last edited by Denny Smith on Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:58 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostWed Nov 22, 2017 10:01 am

Guys Really RTFM.. Studio Camera Manual Page 56:

I can't copy the text anymore from the PDF manuals of BMD.. Looks like they are copy protected now..

But in short comes down to In RAW mode it can be recorded by disk recorders that are capable of uncompressed 10 bit recording. Wrapped as Quicktime Movie.
A example of that recorder is BMD Hyperdeck studio mini. (But sure Atomos will do too)

The raw format is called raw as they did not debayern the signal. So it does not look like video but like data.
Note that davinci does not support debayering of raw data.
After that there is a lot of data as how the raw data is packetised. THese pages are labelled as Developer Information. So that means that they give out the structure on how they packetise. And developers like Atomos, Adobe and others can work from that to create plug-ins to support it.

Give it 6 months and i guess we will see some applications on the internet..

Another side note! You will only be able to turn this RAW mode on if your camera in in 2160P mode.. In HD the RAW mode is disabled in the menu. ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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adamroberts

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostWed Nov 22, 2017 6:19 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:Another side note! You will only be able to turn this RAW mode on if your camera in in 2160P mode.. In HD the RAW mode is disabled in the menu. ;)


That would be due to HD being a scaled video signal from the 2160p. As it's a video signal it's no longer RAW. To get RAW HD you would need to do an HD crop of the 2160p sensor. Much like how the URSA Mini works.

:-)
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Howard Roll

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostThu Nov 23, 2017 9:01 pm

According to the Hyperdeck manual only the Pro and 12G models support "uncompressed" recording. It is likely a mistake in the camera manual, the media for the mini is not even theoretically fast enough to support a 6G data rate.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostFri Nov 24, 2017 11:26 am

Have you seen the specs of the mini ;)
HyperDeck Studio Mini is a miniaturized broadcast deck that’s so compact and portable you can use it anywhere! Even at this incredibly tiny size, you get a professional deck that records and plays back broadcast quality 10-bit video as ProRes files on commonly available SD and UHS-II cards. It’s packed with features like 6G-SDI for working with all formats up to 2160p30, HDMI 2.0 for monitoring, dual SD card slots for non-stop recording

:D It is a 6G sdi recorder and with use of UHS-|| cards able to record up to 2160P30. ;)

Supported Codecs

DNxHD 220x, DNxHD 145, DNxHD 45, DNxHD 220x MXF, DNxHD 145 MXF, DNxHD 45 MXF, DNxHR HQX, DNxHR SQ, DNxHR LB, DNxHR HQX MXF, DNxHR SQ MXF, DNxHR LB MXF. ProRes 422 HQ QuickTime, ProRes 422 QuickTime, ProRes 422 LT QuickTime, ProRes 422 Proxy QuickTime. ProRes 4444 QuickTime in HD for fill and key playback.

Only i don't see an uncompressed data rate here. So i'm not shure which codec they pointing on.. But who knows that there is maybe a Software update for the Hyperdeck around the corner ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Denny Smith

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostFri Nov 24, 2017 6:17 pm

Yes, that is my take in this Daniel, I did not find any uncompressed data rates, or any mention the Minimcould,record uncompressed. In the original Hyperdrck Shuttle manual, uncompressed recording option is listed, and was a feature of this HD recorder.
Maybe a firmware update is in the works?
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Kim Janson

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostFri Nov 24, 2017 9:09 pm

Maybe via some of the PC SDI cards...
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Howard Roll

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostSat Nov 25, 2017 3:56 am

Maybe it's in the works, I don't see how it's possible to record 6G uncompressed (with uncompressed the signal and data rate are the same) with a card whose maximum theoretical recording rate is 2.4G and realistically is probably half. From the manual it's not entirely clear if even the 12G model is capable of recording uncompressed UHD. Until somebody figures out a way to unpack the data It doesn't really matter, right now it's just green fuzz.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostSat Nov 25, 2017 7:55 am

Howard Roll wrote:According to the Hyperdeck manual only the Pro and 12G models support "uncompressed" recording. It is likely a mistake in the camera manual, the media for the mini is not even theoretically fast enough to support a 6G data rate.


It's a typo and should be the HyperDeck Studio Pro. The last manual on the web and in the v4.7.1 installer has the correct information.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostSat Nov 25, 2017 7:57 am

While the signal is packed in an uncompressed video data stream, you don't really have to record it as uncompressed. That was mentioned as a way of getting something recorded right now, if you want a file that contains the bayer information for post processing.

An alternate way will be to just unpack in real time as you recieve the signal over SDI and write that to another RAW format depending on what your hardware can support.
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Denny Smith

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostSat Nov 25, 2017 5:21 pm

Interesting... Thanks Kristian.
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Howard Roll

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostSat Nov 25, 2017 7:50 pm

Kristian Lam wrote:just unpack in real time as you recieve the signal over SDI and write that to another RAW format depending on what your hardware can support.


Using the word" just" doesn't magically make something easier to accomplish. :D . I realize this statement is targeted at other OEMs and not necessarily the end user/consumer.

Since you're here however, care to drop any details about the nature of this raw output? Is it 12 bit linear or log? Is there any compression or is it straight 1:1 raw like the first iteration of BMCC? Can we expect any software/hardware support for this format from BM? While this is definitely a positive step and potentially a cool value add why don't you guys" just" enable 10 bit HDR over 6G?

Thanks.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostSat Nov 25, 2017 11:19 pm

Howard Roll wrote:
Using the word" just" doesn't magically make something easier to accomplish. :D . I realize this statement is targeted at other OEMs and not necessarily the end user/consumer.

Sorta like "just" add 60 fps, "just" add focus peaking, "just" add ProRes 2.5K ;)......
Since you're here however, care to drop any details about the nature of this raw output? Is it 12 bit linear or log? Is there any compression or is it straight 1:1 raw like the first iteration of BMCC?

It is 12-bit linear 1:1 compression as that should be decided by the device implementing the file writing.
Can we expect any software/hardware support for this format from BM? While this is definitely a positive step and potentially a cool value add why don't you guys" just" enable 10 bit HDR over 6G?

As per usual, can't comment on future product development. Sorry.
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Howard Roll

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostSun Nov 26, 2017 1:27 am

Appreciate the information, thanks.
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Kim Janson

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostSun Nov 26, 2017 9:52 pm

This in RAW would be something, well at least a data management nightmare 42 BMMSC :D

12004795_10153133708026186_6308198693710359277_n.jpg
12004795_10153133708026186_6308198693710359277_n.jpg (27.75 KiB) Viewed 527 times


Ps. it is not mine
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Howard Roll

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostMon Nov 27, 2017 8:25 am

Data nightmare............and sync, and power, and post, think your system can't handle 4k raw, try 40 streams of it. I can't wait until VR becomes 3D, and by that I mean dead.

Happy Holidays
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: raw output on Micro Studio Camera 4K

PostMon Nov 27, 2017 4:40 pm

Howard Roll wrote:Data nightmare............and sync, and power, and post, think your system can't handle 4k raw, try 40 streams of it. I can't wait until VR becomes 3D, and by that I mean dead.

Happy Holidays


Yeah, those rigs definitely raise the "what's the point" question... you'd have to stich those in a cloud and it would take quite a while...

... kind of like Lytro's cinema camera; 755 megapixels and 300fps is great if you have the budget to handle it, but to do the post production the team had to work with The Foundry to develop a bunch of cloud compute enabled nodes for Nuke. :)
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