Cineform support for Ursa

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Oli Koos

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Cineform support for Ursa

PostWed Nov 29, 2017 11:33 am

Hi folks,
I would like to add the feature request for the URSA to support cineform codecs like cineform raw. Cineform is now open source and a standard, it seams superior to dnxhd and prores and the raw could be compressed even further than the current 4:1 which makes Cfast use much more manageable.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostWed Nov 29, 2017 1:58 pm

Apparently raw isn't license free though: http://cineform.blogspot.com/2017/10/ci ... 6256120171
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Oli Koos

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostWed Nov 29, 2017 2:31 pm

Oh...ok I see but 20$ license fee for the raw codec is I thibk more than reasonable. :-)
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Dennis Sørensen

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostWed Nov 29, 2017 4:04 pm

Oli Koos wrote:Oh...ok I see but 20$ license fee for the raw codec is I thibk more than reasonable. :-)


Ya, but I think it is enough for BMD to not do it.. Thats why they have ProRes and DNG support today. It is free and wont suddenly jump up in price.. Also. BMD likes to be open source friendly.
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Oli Koos

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostWed Nov 29, 2017 9:44 pm

Well one thing is the cineform raw, the other one is cineform none raw codecs which are compared to dnxhd and prores open source.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostWed Nov 29, 2017 11:15 pm

Dennis Sørensen wrote:Ya, but I think it is enough for BMD to not do it.. Thats why they have ProRes and DNG support today. It is free and wont suddenly jump up in price.. Also. BMD likes to be open source friendly.


BMD isn't open source friendly, it's open standards friendly. The difference is that BMD's products are easy to integrate into most pipelines because they work well with the same standards that the rest of the industry works with (unlike, say, Adobe). That makes Resolve very open pipeline wise, but that's a very different from being open source, which is where the source code itself is available as is now the case with Cineform.
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostThu Nov 30, 2017 3:13 pm

...or you can get the best of all worlds and use RAW 4 PRO to convert URSA's DNG sequences to either CineformRAW, or ProRes, or DNxHD, or H264 - depending on your goals.

I'm the developer of RAW 4 PRO, it has been a workhorse of many people in the RAW video field for a couple years now, has a solid 5-star rating.

Although R4P EASY is normally selling for $110, I'm now offering it to BlackMagic Forum readers for just $29. Use code bm81off and get $81 off. (Offers ends at any moment without prior notice, sorry.)

Free trial also available at http://XactCopi.com
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Steve Holmlund

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostThu Nov 30, 2017 6:26 pm

Alex Primes wrote:...or you can get the best of all worlds and use RAW 4 PRO to convert URSA's DNG sequences to either CineformRAW, or ProRes, or DNxHD, or H264 - depending on your goals.

I'm the developer of RAW 4 PRO, it has been a workhorse of many people in the RAW video field for a couple years now, has a solid 5-star rating.

Although R4P EASY is normally selling for $110, I'm now offering it to BlackMagic Forum readers for just $29. Use code bm81off and get $81 off. (Offers ends at any moment without prior notice, sorry.)

Free trial also available at http://XactCopi.com


Alex,
Thanks for the discount code. I thought I'd give it a try. However, when I unzipped the download, my Norton anti-virus deleted the .exe file with a WS.Reputation.1 high-risk warning. I'm thinking this is because it has not see your program very often. Any advice?

It appears there is a way for you to "white-list" your product with Symantec/Norton: https://www.symantec.com/security_respo ... 99&tabid=3

Sorry, in this day and age you can't be too careful.

Cheers.
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostSun Dec 03, 2017 9:14 pm

You are absolutely correct, can't be too careful, ever.

I personally have both Antivirus and Anti-malware simultaneously running on our production and personal machines at all times.

Regarding our file: yes, it's clean, we even received a "100% clean" badge from Softpedia.

But don't just trust my word on this: please use independent verification! Here's an article in our Knowledge Base that explains how to do so for free.

Thanks again for your interest in RAW 4 PRO!
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Denis Kazlowski

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostMon Dec 04, 2017 8:58 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:BMD isn't open source friendly, it's open standards friendly. The difference is that BMD's products are easy to integrate into most pipelines because they work well with the same standards that the rest of the industry works with (unlike, say, Adobe). That makes Resolve very open pipeline wise, but that's a very different from being open source, which is where the source code itself is available as is now the case with Cineform.


Perfect statement, though they do like integrating open-source in their products, like running Resolve on Linux and the like, just depends on BSD vs. GPL licensing. I think they'd go with the least restrictive one where re-publishing the source is not mandatory.
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Dennis Sørensen

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostMon Dec 04, 2017 11:28 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Dennis Sørensen wrote:Ya, but I think it is enough for BMD to not do it.. Thats why they have ProRes and DNG support today. It is free and wont suddenly jump up in price.. Also. BMD likes to be open source friendly.


BMD isn't open source friendly, it's open standards friendly. The difference is that BMD's products are easy to integrate into most pipelines because they work well with the same standards that the rest of the industry works with (unlike, say, Adobe). That makes Resolve very open pipeline wise, but that's a very different from being open source, which is where the source code itself is available as is now the case with Cineform.


Sorry. Of cause not open-source - it is just sematic in my head because that is what I meant.. English is not my first language, so I apologize.
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostMon Dec 04, 2017 2:20 pm

Steve Holmlund wrote:when I unzipped the download, my Norton anti-virus deleted the .exe file with a WS.Reputation.1 high-risk warning. I'm thinking this is because it has not see your program very often. Any advice?


Good news today as I uploaded our program to Norton's white-list for verification and Symantec confirmed it's clean. They said their LiveUpdate across all Symantec products will stop badgering folks who downloaded RAW 4 PRO Easy (Unlimited) in 24hrs from now.

Kindly update your Symantec antivirus software then.

Also, our special discount is ending :( Please let people who might be interested know that our discount code for BM users bm81off will stop working shortly. The code bm81off allows you to get our 5-star, reliable software RAW 4 PRO for just $29 instead of the normal $125 or already-discounted $110.
Last edited by Alex Primes on Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostMon Dec 04, 2017 5:23 pm

Dennis Sørensen wrote:
Oli Koos wrote:Oh...ok I see but 20$ license fee for the raw codec is I thibk more than reasonable. :-)


Ya, but I think it is enough for BMD to not do it.. Thats why they have ProRes and DNG support today. It is free and wont suddenly jump up in price.. Also. BMD likes to be open source friendly.


The licensed is through the vc5 standard, or whatever it's called. But if they could negotiate $20 per user camera upgrade, and $20 per new camera, they could do it that way. It means that it costs them less to upgrade existing users, who are paying themselves. Say, $40-50AU and they start covering the fpga design.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Denis Kazlowski

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostFri Dec 08, 2017 2:15 am

Wayne Steven wrote:
Dennis Sørensen wrote:
Oli Koos wrote:Oh...ok I see but 20$ license fee for the raw codec is I thibk more than reasonable. :-)


Ya, but I think it is enough for BMD to not do it.. Thats why they have ProRes and DNG support today. It is free and wont suddenly jump up in price.. Also. BMD likes to be open source friendly.


The licensed is through the vc5 standard, or whatever it's called. But if they could negotiate $20 per user camera upgrade, and $20 per new camera, they could do it that way. It means that it costs them less to upgrade existing users, who are paying themselves. Say, $40-50AU and they start covering the fpga design.


I've participated in licensing of codecs, encoders, decoders and other things of this kind before, they are not packaged like this. It's stupid amounts of money up-front. The SMPTE standard will give you a reference guide of what the codec should and should not do, it may also include some sample C code. Then you'd have to deal with the vendor which implemented a fast/speedy encoding, on Chip, CPU or GPU for platform. Then with the theoretical units that would be running vendors code plus any other sublicense costs of the vendors implementation to yet another party. It's a nightmare of Intellectual Property shenanigans. For references see H.264 vs X.264, Motion JPG, MPEG-2-TS live encoding, Fraunhoffer MP3 vs. Everybody elses MP3 and while LAME encoder is called this, JPEG 2000 DCI encoders/players and their prices.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostFri Dec 08, 2017 3:29 pm

Too true Dennis, but I'm just talking about the way things should be. BM can buy in, and charge to recover.

Cineform will already have the code, and likely the ASIC cells (as GoPro uses it). They put this standard through. I have pushed for the use of their raw spec as part of a more elaborate visually lossless consumer media format (maybe Redray is this). As the raw saves space and debayering can be deterministic. Add, some inter frame compression and you have a high compression rate for visually lossless. But cinform had been taylored for non-ASIC hardware, so probably is a good target for using a top end phone chip at 4k. Somebody should approach GoPro about doing a pro camera based on cineform technology. BM could do this. It means that the gopro franchise can point to a bigger non action camera range the people to use to film the action externally, while GoPro offers the lowest end model in action camera form etc.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostFri Dec 08, 2017 8:32 pm

Dennis Sørensen wrote:
Oli Koos wrote:Oh...ok I see but 20$ license fee for the raw codec is I thibk more than reasonable. :-)


Ya, but I think it is enough for BMD to not do it.. Thats why they have ProRes and DNG support today. It is free and wont suddenly jump up in price.. Also. BMD likes to be open source friendly.


I'm not sure that prores is free of charge, i think that BMD payed it to apple, never apple did a gift like that, or every recorder and cameras would record in prores.
Anyway, like panasonic ask 100$ to add log to their gh4 / gh5, i will pay 100$ to add cineform raw to my ursa if is possible, BMD can add in firmware and unlock by code.
I use from many years cf raw, i know the good and the bad of that codec, and i often used it to convert (thanks to great Raw4Pro from alex prime) BMD dng to CFraw to edit easely it and work like a charm with Full commercial workflow of cineform.
Today only cineform raw is not enought, we need also that Resolve could decode and edit like raw files like Redcode.
If someone want it, can unlock, if no one want, no problem not buy it...
but... remember that prores have counted days...
why i told you that?
today CC2018 when I output Prores under Mac advise me that Adobe is going to remove quicktime support from their products, and suggest to use different container to keep compatibility for the future...
To me is a great signal that future could change faster, and a Broadcast safe / multi standard / raw compatible / scalable / Opensource codec like cineform is a good future form.
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostFri Dec 08, 2017 9:17 pm

carlomacchiavello wrote:today CC2018 when I output Prores under Mac advise me that Adobe is going to remove quicktime support from their products

I think there's been a miscommunication there. Adobe have made it so that they support ProRes (and other .mov wrapped codecs) natively without requiring users to have old 32bit Quicktime code installed on their machines. ProRes will continue to work in CC2018 and beyond.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostFri Dec 08, 2017 10:56 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
carlomacchiavello wrote:today CC2018 when I output Prores under Mac advise me that Adobe is going to remove quicktime support from their products

I think there's been a miscommunication there. Adobe have made it so that they support ProRes (and other .mov wrapped codecs) natively without requiring users to have old 32bit Quicktime code installed on their machines. ProRes will continue to work in CC2018 and beyond.


Hi Jamie,
i aware about it, but i talk about a message that appair when you output a prores from Premiere that advise you about the end of qt32bit, but suggest you to transcode it to a different format to use in future.
to me is not a good advise, qt32 is not necessary under mac, be cause from many years exist only qtX which is a 64bit application. If all codec (like adobe told us) are embedded, we not need to know this info and we not transcode it to read in future...
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostSun Dec 10, 2017 12:19 am

I agree, the notification makes zero sense unless it is simply there to warn people still using older 32 bit OS and CPU. I can't imagine that's very many people at this point, but who knows?
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostSun Dec 10, 2017 11:08 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:I agree, the notification makes zero sense unless it is simply there to warn people still using older 32 bit OS and CPU. I can't imagine that's very many people at this point, but who knows?


i agree with your theory, but ... this happen on a 64bit software that can be installed only on a 64bit os, on a MacOsX with a QT64bit. i greatly hope to be wrong, but it seems a different signal.
Anyway Adobe did in past a lots of nonsense action, i hope this is like in past. ;)
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostSun Dec 10, 2017 5:15 pm

See the official posts by Adobe on their forum. It should clear things up for you. The warning you’re getting is overzealous.

https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2396734
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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostSun Dec 10, 2017 10:44 pm

Alex Primes wrote:Free trial also available at http://XactCopi.com


This link doesn't work.
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostSun Dec 10, 2017 11:02 pm

David Peddicord wrote:
Alex Primes wrote:Free trial also available at http://XactCopi.com


This link doesn't work.


Apologies, our site is (embarrassingly) down since our host hasn't finished mapping our domain name to their servers since yesterday.

We are left in the wind to wait till they finish their job, sorry.

None of our existing customers are affected by the outage, btw. All purchased software works independently from this website.

I will immediately post here when our site is back up and running (hopefully Monday), so the demo will be once again available to the new users.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 2:17 pm

Alex, I'm interested in your copy software. Most copy software is prone to copy errors, where the verification is fine by bit sum, or bit to bit, on buffered or cache data that hasn't been updated or reflected on the drive yet. The issue was windows, system or drive not diung the flush properly. Normally not much of a concern except that people are copying their whole footage library year by year to new drives this way, bound to pickup some corruption. I did a lot of looking around for solutions, only to find a complicated command tool years ago. Does your software handle this?

Another good feature would be backup with data encoded recovery features, incase of corruption or head crash.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 2:21 pm

Somebody could make cineform into a encoder for Android or iOS phones using the GPU, or action camera.
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 6:30 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Alex, I'm interested in your copy software. Most copy software is prone to copy errors, where the verification is fine by bit sum, or bit to bit, on buffered or cache data that hasn't been updated or reflected on the drive yet. The issue was windows, system or drive not diung the flush properly. Normally not much of a concern except that people are copying their whole footage library year by year to new drives this way, bound to pickup some corruption. I did a lot of looking around for solutions, only to find a complicated command tool years ago. Does your software handle this?

Another good feature would be backup with data encoded recovery features, incase of corruption or head crash.


We currently have two different software offerings, one is RAW 4 PRO and another Data Boss (formerly Xact Copi.)

Are you referring to Data Boss?
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 6:31 pm

David Peddicord wrote:
Alex Primes wrote:Free trial also available at http://XactCopi.com


This link doesn't work.


Our host finished their setup just now, and the site is up and running now!

The new name of the software is Data Boss, and I hope this poster explains why. Do you like Data Boss better than Xact Copi (former software name)?

databossme_v1.jpg
databossme_v1.jpg (254.88 KiB) Viewed 64 times
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Oli Koos

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Re: Cineform support for Ursa

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 10:09 pm

Alex Primes wrote:
Steve Holmlund wrote:when I unzipped the download, my Norton anti-virus deleted the .exe file with a WS.Reputation.1 high-risk warning. I'm thinking this is because it has not see your program very often. Any advice?


Good news today as I uploaded our program to Norton's white-list for verification and Symantec confirmed it's clean. They said their LiveUpdate across all Symantec products will stop badgering folks who downloaded RAW 4 PRO Easy (Unlimited) in 24hrs from now.

Kindly update your Symantec antivirus software then.

Also, our special discount is ending :( Please let people who might be interested know that our discount code for BM users bm81off will stop working shortly. The code bm81off allows you to get our 5-star, reliable software RAW 4 PRO for just $29 instead of the normal $125 or already-discounted $110.


You are hijacking the treat! I'm not sure if you can advertise for anything that is not black magic related on this bord anyways.

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