Blackmagic Forum

Hi folks,
I would like to add the feature request for the URSA to support cineform codecs like cineform raw. Cineform is now open source and a standard, it seams superior to dnxhd and prores and the raw could be compressed even further than the current 4:1 which makes Cfast use much more manageable.

Apparently raw isn't license free though: http://cineform.blogspot.com/2017/10/ci ... 6256120171

Oh...ok I see but 20$ license fee for the raw codec is I thibk more than reasonable.

Oli Koos wrote:Oh...ok I see but 20$ license fee for the raw codec is I thibk more than reasonable.

Ya, but I think it is enough for BMD to not do it.. Thats why they have ProRes and DNG support today. It is free and wont suddenly jump up in price.. Also. BMD likes to be open source friendly.

Well one thing is the cineform raw, the other one is cineform none raw codecs which are compared to dnxhd and prores open source.

Dennis Sørensen wrote:Ya, but I think it is enough for BMD to not do it.. Thats why they have ProRes and DNG support today. It is free and wont suddenly jump up in price.. Also. BMD likes to be open source friendly.

BMD isn't open source friendly, it's open standards friendly. The difference is that BMD's products are easy to integrate into most pipelines because they work well with the same standards that the rest of the industry works with (unlike, say, Adobe). That makes Resolve very open pipeline wise, but that's a very different from being open source, which is where the source code itself is available as is now the case with Cineform.

...or you can get the best of all worlds and use RAW 4 PRO to convert URSA's DNG sequences to either CineformRAW, or ProRes, or DNxHD, or H264 - depending on your goals.

I'm the developer of RAW 4 PRO, it has been a workhorse of many people in the RAW video field for a couple years now, has a solid 5-star rating.

Although R4P EASY is normally selling for $110, I'm now offering it to BlackMagic Forum readers for just $29. Use code bm81off and get $81 off. (Offers ends at any moment without prior notice, sorry.)

Free trial also available at http://XactCopi.com

Alex Primes wrote:...or you can get the best of all worlds and use RAW 4 PRO to convert URSA's DNG sequences to either CineformRAW, or ProRes, or DNxHD, or H264 - depending on your goals.

I'm the developer of RAW 4 PRO, it has been a workhorse of many people in the RAW video field for a couple years now, has a solid 5-star rating.

Although R4P EASY is normally selling for $110, I'm now offering it to BlackMagic Forum readers for just $29. Use code bm81off and get $81 off. (Offers ends at any moment without prior notice, sorry.)

Free trial also available at http://XactCopi.com

Alex,
Thanks for the discount code. I thought I'd give it a try. However, when I unzipped the download, my Norton anti-virus deleted the .exe file with a WS.Reputation.1 high-risk warning. I'm thinking this is because it has not see your program very often. Any advice?

It appears there is a way for you to "white-list" your product with Symantec/Norton: https://www.symantec.com/security_respo ... 99&tabid=3

Sorry, in this day and age you can't be too careful.

Cheers.

You are absolutely correct, can't be too careful, ever.

I personally have both Antivirus and Anti-malware simultaneously running on our production and personal machines at all times.

Regarding our file: yes, it's clean, we even received a "100% clean" badge from Softpedia.

But don't just trust my word on this: please use independent verification! Here's an article in our Knowledge Base that explains how to do so for free.

Thanks again for your interest in RAW 4 PRO!

Rakesh Malik wrote:BMD isn't open source friendly, it's open standards friendly. The difference is that BMD's products are easy to integrate into most pipelines because they work well with the same standards that the rest of the industry works with (unlike, say, Adobe). That makes Resolve very open pipeline wise, but that's a very different from being open source, which is where the source code itself is available as is now the case with Cineform.

Perfect statement, though they do like integrating open-source in their products, like running Resolve on Linux and the like, just depends on BSD vs. GPL licensing. I think they'd go with the least restrictive one where re-publishing the source is not mandatory.

Rakesh Malik wrote:

Dennis Sørensen wrote:Ya, but I think it is enough for BMD to not do it.. Thats why they have ProRes and DNG support today. It is free and wont suddenly jump up in price.. Also. BMD likes to be open source friendly.

BMD isn't open source friendly, it's open standards friendly. The difference is that BMD's products are easy to integrate into most pipelines because they work well with the same standards that the rest of the industry works with (unlike, say, Adobe). That makes Resolve very open pipeline wise, but that's a very different from being open source, which is where the source code itself is available as is now the case with Cineform.

Sorry. Of cause not open-source - it is just sematic in my head because that is what I meant.. English is not my first language, so I apologize.

Steve Holmlund wrote:when I unzipped the download, my Norton anti-virus deleted the .exe file with a WS.Reputation.1 high-risk warning. I'm thinking this is because it has not see your program very often. Any advice?

Good news today as I uploaded our program to Norton's white-list for verification and Symantec confirmed it's clean. They said their LiveUpdate across all Symantec products will stop badgering folks who downloaded RAW 4 PRO Easy (Unlimited) in 24hrs from now.

Kindly update your Symantec antivirus software then.

Also, our special discount is ending Please let people who might be interested know that our discount code for BM users bm81off will stop working shortly. The code bm81off allows you to get our 5-star, reliable software RAW 4 PRO for just $29 instead of the normal $125 or already-discounted $110.

Dennis Sørensen wrote:

Oli Koos wrote:Oh...ok I see but 20$ license fee for the raw codec is I thibk more than reasonable.

Ya, but I think it is enough for BMD to not do it.. Thats why they have ProRes and DNG support today. It is free and wont suddenly jump up in price.. Also. BMD likes to be open source friendly.

The licensed is through the vc5 standard, or whatever it's called. But if they could negotiate $20 per user camera upgrade, and $20 per new camera, they could do it that way. It means that it costs them less to upgrade existing users, who are paying themselves. Say, $40-50AU and they start covering the fpga design.

Wayne Steven wrote:

Dennis Sørensen wrote:

Oli Koos wrote:Oh...ok I see but 20$ license fee for the raw codec is I thibk more than reasonable.

Ya, but I think it is enough for BMD to not do it.. Thats why they have ProRes and DNG support today. It is free and wont suddenly jump up in price.. Also. BMD likes to be open source friendly.

The licensed is through the vc5 standard, or whatever it's called. But if they could negotiate $20 per user camera upgrade, and $20 per new camera, they could do it that way. It means that it costs them less to upgrade existing users, who are paying themselves. Say, $40-50AU and they start covering the fpga design.

I've participated in licensing of codecs, encoders, decoders and other things of this kind before, they are not packaged like this. It's stupid amounts of money up-front. The SMPTE standard will give you a reference guide of what the codec should and should not do, it may also include some sample C code. Then you'd have to deal with the vendor which implemented a fast/speedy encoding, on Chip, CPU or GPU for platform. Then with the theoretical units that would be running vendors code plus any other sublicense costs of the vendors implementation to yet another party. It's a nightmare of Intellectual Property shenanigans. For references see H.264 vs X.264, Motion JPG, MPEG-2-TS live encoding, Fraunhoffer MP3 vs. Everybody elses MP3 and while LAME encoder is called this, JPEG 2000 DCI encoders/players and their prices.

Too true Dennis, but I'm just talking about the way things should be. BM can buy in, and charge to recover.

Cineform will already have the code, and likely the ASIC cells (as GoPro uses it). They put this standard through. I have pushed for the use of their raw spec as part of a more elaborate visually lossless consumer media format (maybe Redray is this). As the raw saves space and debayering can be deterministic. Add, some inter frame compression and you have a high compression rate for visually lossless. But cinform had been taylored for non-ASIC hardware, so probably is a good target for using a top end phone chip at 4k. Somebody should approach GoPro about doing a pro camera based on cineform technology. BM could do this. It means that the gopro franchise can point to a bigger non action camera range the people to use to film the action externally, while GoPro offers the lowest end model in action camera form etc.

Dennis Sørensen wrote:

Oli Koos wrote:Oh...ok I see but 20$ license fee for the raw codec is I thibk more than reasonable.

Ya, but I think it is enough for BMD to not do it.. Thats why they have ProRes and DNG support today. It is free and wont suddenly jump up in price.. Also. BMD likes to be open source friendly.

I'm not sure that prores is free of charge, i think that BMD payed it to apple, never apple did a gift like that, or every recorder and cameras would record in prores.
Anyway, like panasonic ask 100$ to add log to their gh4 / gh5, i will pay 100$ to add cineform raw to my ursa if is possible, BMD can add in firmware and unlock by code.
I use from many years cf raw, i know the good and the bad of that codec, and i often used it to convert (thanks to great Raw4Pro from alex prime) BMD dng to CFraw to edit easely it and work like a charm with Full commercial workflow of cineform.
Today only cineform raw is not enought, we need also that Resolve could decode and edit like raw files like Redcode.
If someone want it, can unlock, if no one want, no problem not buy it...
but... remember that prores have counted days...
why i told you that?
today CC2018 when I output Prores under Mac advise me that Adobe is going to remove quicktime support from their products, and suggest to use different container to keep compatibility for the future...
To me is a great signal that future could change faster, and a Broadcast safe / multi standard / raw compatible / scalable / Opensource codec like cineform is a good future form.

carlomacchiavello wrote:today CC2018 when I output Prores under Mac advise me that Adobe is going to remove quicktime support from their products

I think there's been a miscommunication there. Adobe have made it so that they support ProRes (and other .mov wrapped codecs) natively without requiring users to have old 32bit Quicktime code installed on their machines. ProRes will continue to work in CC2018 and beyond.

Jamie LeJeune wrote:

carlomacchiavello wrote:today CC2018 when I output Prores under Mac advise me that Adobe is going to remove quicktime support from their products

I think there's been a miscommunication there. Adobe have made it so that they support ProRes (and other .mov wrapped codecs) natively without requiring users to have old 32bit Quicktime code installed on their machines. ProRes will continue to work in CC2018 and beyond.

Hi Jamie,
i aware about it, but i talk about a message that appair when you output a prores from Premiere that advise you about the end of qt32bit, but suggest you to transcode it to a different format to use in future.
to me is not a good advise, qt32 is not necessary under mac, be cause from many years exist only qtX which is a 64bit application. If all codec (like adobe told us) are embedded, we not need to know this info and we not transcode it to read in future...

I agree, the notification makes zero sense unless it is simply there to warn people still using older 32 bit OS and CPU. I can't imagine that's very many people at this point, but who knows?

Jamie LeJeune wrote:I agree, the notification makes zero sense unless it is simply there to warn people still using older 32 bit OS and CPU. I can't imagine that's very many people at this point, but who knows?

i agree with your theory, but ... this happen on a 64bit software that can be installed only on a 64bit os, on a MacOsX with a QT64bit. i greatly hope to be wrong, but it seems a different signal.
Anyway Adobe did in past a lots of nonsense action, i hope this is like in past.

See the official posts by Adobe on their forum. It should clear things up for you. The warning you’re getting is overzealous.

https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2396734

Alex Primes wrote:Free trial also available at http://XactCopi.com

This link doesn't work.

David Peddicord wrote:

Alex Primes wrote:Free trial also available at http://XactCopi.com

This link doesn't work.

Apologies, our site is (embarrassingly) down since our host hasn't finished mapping our domain name to their servers since yesterday.

We are left in the wind to wait till they finish their job, sorry.

None of our existing customers are affected by the outage, btw. All purchased software works independently from this website.

I will immediately post here when our site is back up and running (hopefully Monday), so the demo will be once again available to the new users.

Alex, I'm interested in your copy software. Most copy software is prone to copy errors, where the verification is fine by bit sum, or bit to bit, on buffered or cache data that hasn't been updated or reflected on the drive yet. The issue was windows, system or drive not diung the flush properly. Normally not much of a concern except that people are copying their whole footage library year by year to new drives this way, bound to pickup some corruption. I did a lot of looking around for solutions, only to find a complicated command tool years ago. Does your software handle this?

Another good feature would be backup with data encoded recovery features, incase of corruption or head crash.

Somebody could make cineform into a encoder for Android or iOS phones using the GPU, or action camera.

Wayne Steven wrote:Alex, I'm interested in your copy software. Most copy software is prone to copy errors, where the verification is fine by bit sum, or bit to bit, on buffered or cache data that hasn't been updated or reflected on the drive yet. The issue was windows, system or drive not diung the flush properly. Normally not much of a concern except that people are copying their whole footage library year by year to new drives this way, bound to pickup some corruption. I did a lot of looking around for solutions, only to find a complicated command tool years ago. Does your software handle this?

Another good feature would be backup with data encoded recovery features, incase of corruption or head crash.

We currently have two different software offerings, one is RAW 4 PRO and another Data Boss (formerly Xact Copi.)

Are you referring to Data Boss?

Alex Primes wrote:

Steve Holmlund wrote:when I unzipped the download, my Norton anti-virus deleted the .exe file with a WS.Reputation.1 high-risk warning. I'm thinking this is because it has not see your program very often. Any advice?

Good news today as I uploaded our program to Norton's white-list for verification and Symantec confirmed it's clean. They said their LiveUpdate across all Symantec products will stop badgering folks who downloaded RAW 4 PRO Easy (Unlimited) in 24hrs from now.

Kindly update your Symantec antivirus software then.

Also, our special discount is ending Please let people who might be interested know that our discount code for BM users bm81off will stop working shortly. The code bm81off allows you to get our 5-star, reliable software RAW 4 PRO for just $29 instead of the normal $125 or already-discounted $110.

You are hijacking the treat! I'm not sure if you can advertise for anything that is not black magic related on this bord anyways.

Yeah, it's in all the Cineform threads. Please use the announcements section instead: https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6

Alex, yes. You can PM me replies.

Just a thought. As confirm is designed to be much lighter processing than Jp2k based wavelet codecs (as the original Red one was). It might be possible to get the pocket cinema camera to process fhdp50?

Can only find one other cineform thread:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=67211

Can Resolve Studio (re-)compress CinemaDNG to CineformRaw or does Resolve not support CineformRaw encoding?

Oli Koos wrote:Can Resolve Studio (re-)compress CinemaDNG to CineformRaw or does Resolve not support CineformRaw encoding?

to my knowledge only goprostudio (and previous) contain library to encode cineformraw, raw4pro from alex do this be cause ask to install cineform and optimize the precess, do that goprostudio not do, sinc audio, add timecode and more

The latest 3.0 beta of the VLC player supports Cineform decoding now.

Robert Niessner wrote:The latest 3.0 beta of the VLC player supports Cineform decoding now.

Where do I find it? Both my installed VLC and their website insist that 2.2.8 is the latest version, and it does not play Cineform video, unfortunately.

Alex Primes wrote:

Robert Niessner wrote:The latest 3.0 beta of the VLC player supports Cineform decoding now.

Where do I find it? Both my installed VLC and their website insist that 2.2.8 is the latest version, and it does not play Cineform video, unfortunately.

Their website only shows final releases.
You can get the latest beta release here:
http://nightlies.videolan.org/build/win ... 0101-0505/

Other OS:
http://nightlies.videolan.org

There is also a version 4 of VLC, but don't use that, it is in a preliminary stage and won't be ready before summer 2018.

great news finally!!!
thanks Robert

In fairness, small and fast MPC (Media Player Classic) can be used to view Cineform/RAW files just fine.

But of course VLC is a heavy hitter and a favorite of many, including yours truly

I am using the MPC-HC myself as my main media player, but it needs an installed Cineform codec, otherwise it will show nothing. The interesting thing now is that VLC will be able to use its internal implementation of Cineform.

Just a quick note, RAW 4 PRO will no longer be offered in just a few days. Blackout date: Jan 25th 2018.
But R4P Easy users who purchased their licenses up to that date will be fine - the EASY version will work indefinitely.

If you'd like to get one while still available, I'm offering a 55% off discount to the readers of this forum till Jan 20th. Just click here, then enter promo code: bmr55

Thank you for reading.

There is also CineForm plugin for VLC http://www.kolor.com/cineform-vlc-plugin/

Dmitry Shijan wrote:There is also CineForm plugin for VLC http://www.kolor.com/cineform-vlc-plugin/

That page says "It will allow you to watch CineForm encoded videos"

As Robert already kindly linked above, the beta version of VLC actually seems to be able to do that without a plug-in.

All those are decoders for playback, not for encoding.

RAW 4 PRO, however, comes with the proprietary Cineform-supplied encoder that outputs both in CineformRAW (virtually any resolution, I personally tried up to about 8K) or CineformHD, depending on whether the input is raw (DNG) or debayered (JPG).

Alex Primes wrote:

Dmitry Shijan wrote:There is also CineForm plugin for VLC http://www.kolor.com/cineform-vlc-plugin/

That page says "It will allow you to watch CineForm encoded videos"

As Robert already kindly linked above, the beta version of VLC actually seems to be able to do that without a plug-in.

All those are decoders for playback, not for encoding.

RAW 4 PRO, however, comes with the proprietary Cineform-supplied encoder that outputs both in CineformRAW (virtually any resolution, I personally tried up to about 8K) or CineformHD, depending on whether the input is raw (DNG) or debayered (JPG).

Windows only?

Tristan Pemberton wrote:Windows only?

Yes. I'm sorry I can't program for iOS yet.

Of course, RAW 4 PRO will function perfectly under Win emulators on Mac - tested with VMware Fusion, works great.

Alex Primes wrote:

Dmitry Shijan wrote:There is also CineForm plugin for VLC http://www.kolor.com/cineform-vlc-plugin/

That page says "It will allow you to watch CineForm encoded videos"

As Robert already kindly linked above, the beta version of VLC actually seems to be able to do that without a plug-in.

All those are decoders for playback, not for encoding.

RAW 4 PRO, however, comes with the proprietary Cineform-supplied encoder that outputs both in CineformRAW (virtually any resolution, I personally tried up to about 8K) or CineformHD, depending on whether the input is raw (DNG) or debayered (JPG).

I downloaded VLC beta 3 for Mac and it can not playback Cineform files.
Next i installed CineForm plugin for VLC and it was able to playback Cineform files. I also found Cineform playback quality tab in the settings.