Introducing Blackmagic Production Camera 4K

I highly respect Shane and I just wanted to start this post by saying that, but I have no idea what he's talking about and would definitely like to hear his explanation on that. In my opinion, the lack of skew and jello does not equal fake. I can't imagine he's talking about that. There's nothing else that I can think of that he'd be talking about, unless other cameras with global shutter render motion weird but I don't really see how that would be possible. That comment makes no sense to me and I'd love to hear an explanation. No skew and jello is basically a gift from the camera gods for VFX. Tracking will be more accurate. There won't be strange artifacts.

I'd really love to hear an explanation on that.

We've had "global shutter" for many years, back when we still had CCDs in video cameras. Nobody found them fake then, so why should gs be a bad thing now? Has it come so far that some people _expect_ wobbling jelly as proof of authenticity? To me, rolling shutter for a long time was the tell tale sign of consumer equipment... That has, of course, changed by now, yet still I'd prefer global shutter any time.

We've had "global shutter" for many years, back when we still had CCDs in video cameras. Nobody found them fake then, so why should gs be a bad thing now? Has it come so far that some people _expect_ wobbling jelly as proof of authenticity? To me, rolling shutter for a long time was the tell tale sign of consumer equipment... That has, of course, changed by now, yet still I'd prefer global shutter any time.

That's true!

I highly respect Shane and I just wanted to start this post by saying that, but I have no idea what he's talking about and would definitely like to hear his explanation on that...

Does anyone here use Twitter and could send Shane a tweet asking for clarification?

Rick Lang
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I highly respect Shane and I just wanted to start this post by saying that, but I have no idea what he's talking about and would definitely like to hear his explanation on that...

Does anyone here use Twitter and could send Shane a tweet asking for clarification?

Rick Lang
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There is know use in asking him on Twitter, He will probably never tell what camera he was speaking of, Well other than maybe the C500 as Andrew Reid had mentioned.

I highly respect Shane and I just wanted to start this post by saying that, but I have no idea what he's talking about and would definitely like to hear his explanation on that...

Does anyone here use Twitter and could send Shane a tweet asking for clarification?

Rick Lang
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There is know use in asking him on Twitter...

Okay, let's not press it. Maybe he's feeling embarrassed about it now. It's okay, we all say ridiculous things from time to time. I'd certainly think the global shutter will be a strength of the BMPC4K and not a weakness.

I remember when I was young being concerned about the image distortion that could arise from fast action in front of a stills camera using those focal plane shutters. In a way they are similar to a rolling shutter in a CMOS camera. I had preferred the earlier stills cameras that had a (slower) mechanical shutter. The electronic global shutter is a return to that original concept of a shutter, and can be even better since the readout from every area of the sensor is occurring in the same moment in time. Looking forward to that and the higher resolution from which better colour may be derived in final deliverables.

Rick Lang
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I remember when I was young being concerned about the image distortion that could arise from fast action in front of a stills camera using those focal plane shutters. In a way they are similar to a rolling shutter in a CMOS camera. I had preferred the earlier stills cameras that had a (slower) mechanical shutter. The electronic global shutter is a return to that original concept of a shutter, and can be even better since the readout from every area of the sensor is occurring in the same moment in time. Looking forward to that and the higher resolution from which better colour may be derived in final deliverables.

Rick Lang
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The RED motion mount looks an interesting solution if it works, adding electronic NDs and shutter into the lens mount (PL initially) The downside is you lose a stop of exposure (exposure not DR).

All (Global, rolling, physical and Motion mount) have their advantages and disadvantages.

The RED motion mount looks an interesting solution if it works, adding electronic NDs and shutter into the lens mount (PL initially) The downside is you lose a stop of exposure (exposure not DR).

All (Global, rolling, physical and Motion mount) have their advantages and disadvantages.

Thanks for that note about RED, Pete. I'm aware that having a sensor using global shutter option versus rolling shutter can be associated with a loss of some dynamic range. I don't know if that applies to the BMPC4K, since I believe it only has a global shutter and no rolling shutter option. Are there other disadvantages with a CMOS sensor global shutter?

Rick Lang
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Are there other disadvantages with a CMOS sensor global shutter?

Rick Lang
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Lower fill factor for the sensors. The global shutter is implimented by adding a couple extra transistors, which takes away area that would otherwise be photosensitive. That explains the lower iso and DR. It might add to Moire issues, but not definitely. It depends on the quality of the micro lens. Fill factor on CMOSIS is 42%, which for CMOS isn't to bad-especially considering they are cramming 8 transistors and two capacitors per pixel-on top of the photo diode and well area. Most designs are 4T or 6T designs.

CMOS cameras with global shutter mode operates exactly like the inter-line CCD. All pixels are exposed simultaneously to the light. Before the exposure the pixel is kept free of charge and after the exposure, the charges are transferred to the readout node. All parts of the obtained image using this mode is precisely taken at the same time. There will not be any spatial distortion and synchronization to an external trigger is quite simple. On the downside, the global shutter mode has higher read-out noise (typically twice large than the rolling shutter ~2.5 e) and also requires a background image to re-set the image which reduces the frame rate to half of what is possible for an unsynchronized rolling shutter based camera image. And to say the least; the global shutter image does not show any distortion and rolling shutter artifacts.

It's my wild guess that BMD called it Production and not a Cinema camera because the images it captures are smooth to say the least (which are more suited for television production) unlike other high end Cinema cameras that still largely implement Rolling Shutter mechanism with all sort of known issues like the ROLLING SHUTTER ARTIFACTS etc.
This one aspect still remains to be discussed here or some nut would still suggest to wait till some footage comes out? and that's practically fine! but i think every single soul who is waiting passionately for this camera should know of what it's actually gonna offer to them. whether it's more in line with television production (Lower iso & DR) or film production which needs just the opposite in terms of DR and sensitivity.

Cheers!

...On the downside, the global shutter mode has higher read-out noise (typically twice large than the rolling shutter ~2.5 e) and also requires a background image to re-set the image which reduces the frame rate to half of what is possible for an unsynchronized rolling shutter based camera image...

Definitely some downsides that I was not aware of and helps explain why the ISO would be lower.

And thanks to randomacronym for a clear explanation as well.

Rick Lang
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...i think every single soul who is waiting passionately for this camera should know of what it's actually gonna offer to them. whether it's more in line with television production (Lower iso & DR) or film production which needs just the opposite in terms of DR and sensitivity.

I think the lower sensitivity can be minimized where you can control the light but that still leaves a lot of low light situations that will be more difficult for the BMPC4K to capture well. Would you care to comment on what seems to me to be important in cinema and that is the colour you expect from the BMPC4K versus the BMCC when final deliverables are 2K or HD downscaled from 4K raw? My feeling is that improved colour from the BMPC4K due to debayering and downscaling from a higher resolution, although perhaps difficult to prove until we see comparison footage, will help compensate for some of the loss of dynamic range in the overall image quality.

Rick Lang
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...i think every single soul who is waiting passionately for this camera should know of what it's actually gonna offer to them. whether it's more in line with television production (Lower iso & DR) or film production which needs just the opposite in terms of DR and sensitivity.

I think the lower sensitivity can be minimized where you can control the light but that still leaves a lot of low light situations that will be more difficult for the BMPC4K to capture well. Would you care to comment on what seems to me to be important in cinema and that is the colour you expect from the BMPC4K versus the BMCC when final deliverables are 2K or HD downscaled from 4K raw? My feeling is that improved colour from the BMPC4K due to debayering and downscaling from a higher resolution, although perhaps difficult to prove until we see comparison footage, will help compensate for some of the loss of dynamic range in the overall image quality.

Rick Lang
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Well that exactly what my guess is! about the color depth coz we'd certainly have double resolution to work with in post than what our final deliverables are gonna be (2k or HD). not sure how much of an advantage it is to downscale the footage when it comes to noise, color, DR and motion. Really!

I am afraid that lower sensitivity would kill this camera if it comes out really that bad, coz most of the end users of this camera would be amateurs who cannot afford high end cinema cameras with 4k resolution, in their respective domains; low light capability of the camera is as important as 4 times the resolution because of the hassles of carrying and buying a truck full of lighting equipments.

I think every technology has its own quips and quirks and is not perfect, as is with anybody else is in this world. And that way neither the Rolling Shutter means the end of the world nor the Global Shutter is indefectible, both mechanisms have their own advantages and disadvantages.

Let me also quote a proverb of Publius Syrus, who once said "A Rolling stone Gathers No Moss"
and i think it also goes true for Rolling Shutter which gathers NO Noise (or as much as a GS).

Ask an expert and he'd tell you whats most important, Low light sensitivity and greater Dynamic Range would be his preferred answer for sure, because not all shots are fast actions and fast pans (where GS would really shine) but that's generally a very tiny part of any project unless of course we are shooting a Greandprix...

Take Care

If you ask an expert, he'll tell you that each feature has its own unique purpose, so it is not possible to weigh one against the other. And he'd probably add that there are more factors to think about, like the right lens for the situation, that can somewhat compensate the loss in sensitivity.

If you ask an expert, he'll tell you that each feature has its own unique purpose, so it is not possible to weigh one against the other. And he'd probably add that there are more factors to think about, like the right lens for the situation, that can somewhat compensate the loss in sensitivity.

Sorry but i agree to disagree!

Bcoz as i said that the majority of the intended users of this camera would mostly be the non professionals whose work we usually see on Vimeo or youtube and that group does not have any specific purposes except to capture beautiful images, and certainly very few of them would consider buying two cameras for low light performance and the other for fast motions.

And BTW i m not in any way skeptic to Global Shutter, of course it offers something that's missing in Rolling shutter and vice versa. What all i am saying is that it's not the ultimate winner in every aspect as some people trying to convey here.

As far as fast lenses are concerned, my take would be that even the fastest lens sometimes falls short even with a camera like 5d mkiii which is a low light beast. Lower F or T stops of a fast lens couldn't be the substitute of actual sensitivity of the Camera. Also as most people would know here that shooting at lower F/T stops in low light creates Shallow depth effect becoz of the full opening of the lens which is not necessary at all times and for every work as most situations demand the subject and its environment fully in focus and that's near impossible with lower f/t stops.

Take care

Sorry but i agree to disagree!

Bcoz as i said that the majority of the intended users of this camera would mostly be the non professionals

It's ok to disagree - i do so as well

I think the majority of PC4Ks will be bought by professionals who know exactly what they want. I think so, just because the whole package of camera and neccessary accessories is too expensive for anyone who won't make money from it. Even if "4K for 4k" sounds really cheap, you must add a couple Ks for lenses & filters, ssd(s), proper rigging, batteries, probably even a field monitor or evf, etcetera. And there's not much point in buying a 12 stops 4k camera if you can't present your footage in full quality anyway... I believe the afore mentioned non professionals will be far more interested in the Pocket CC.

Sorry but i agree to disagree!

Bcoz as i said that the majority of the intended users of this camera would mostly be the non professionals

It's ok to disagree - i do so as well

I think the majority of PC4Ks will be bought by professionals who know exactly what they want. I think so, just because the whole package of camera and neccessary accessories is too expensive for anyone who won't make money from it. Even if "4K for 4k" sounds really cheap, you must add a couple Ks for lenses & filters, ssd(s), proper rigging, batteries, probably even a field monitor or evf, etcetera. And there's not much point in buying a 12 stops 4k camera if you can't present your footage in full quality anyway... I believe the afore mentioned non professionals will be far more interested in the Pocket CC.

Get ur numbers correct that how many BMCC 2.5k were bought by the professionals!
Truth is the majority of the units went in to the hands of either amatuers or semi professionals and the majority of works done by them showed up at online channels like Vimeo and Youtube...
BMPC 4k will meet the same fate, but that's positively fine, i mean wots wrong even if the amatuers and semi professionals also bitten by the same pixel bug. after all their creativity is'nt any less fun to watch.

Take care

Got the information from Newegg about the 4K camera. Newegg no longer carries the camera on their website. I asked them why and the rep told me they didn't get enough order. I don't think anybody order from them. Anyhow, he said to expect delay with the shipping because they didn't get a specific shipping date for it. I guess they didn't want to bother with BM.

I think the majority of PC4Ks will be bought by professionals who know exactly what they want. I think so, just because the whole package of camera and necessary accessories is too expensive for anyone who won't make money from it. Even if "4K for 4k" sounds really cheap, you must add a couple Ks for lenses & filters, ssd(s), proper rigging, batteries, probably even a field monitor or evf, etcetera. And there's not much point in buying a 12 stops 4k camera if you can't present your footage in full quality anyway... I believe the afore mentioned non professionals will be far more interested in the Pocket CC.

Mac you may be right about the majority but there will still be appeal for the BMPC4K among aspiring cinematographers and enthusiasts if the image quality, the final result after taking into account the various strengths and weaknesses, is equivalent to the BMCC. I imagine many professionals who will deliver 4K may even want a 6K or 8K camera to do that and won't be interested. Anyone who wants very good image quality for 2K or HD will be interested in what the BMPC4K achieves and how it compares to the BMCC.

Because both cameras are relatively inexpensive, I do not believe the $1,000 difference in camera price is important at all given the expenses for additional gear to make it all work well exceed the cost of the cameras (look at the cost of the Flanders Scientific CM171 monitor or a reliable tripod with true fluid head). Yes, it may be the 4K or 2K users who do not already work with raw will need better lights, perhaps a faster computer and larger display if colour grading in 4K (Resolve X and the new Mac Pro), and additional storage. But for many users who already have or rent a lot of their equipment, the extra costs of the BMPC4K workflow compared to the gear needed for the BMCC will not be significant.

When I say that, I am comparing the user who will shoot raw and edit and grade in 4K or 2.5K. Really not much difference in cost for those people. For those who are quickly going to downscale the raw to do all their work in HD, if they start with raw, again not much difference. For those who only record ProRes in-camera, not much difference.

I hope I am not sounding like I am arguing there is no difference! Just that the decision of which camera to use is likely based more on image quality and the uses the camera will be put to and where each camera appears to be stronger than that initial $1,000 difference. The BMPCC is an easy buy for anyone who owns either the BMPC4K, BMCC EF or especially the BMCC MFT. If someone is starting to use raw or ProRes/DNxHD with that pocket camera, yes there is likely a very significant cost to move up to the BMPC4K.

You are correct that the pocket will have a potentially larger market appeal for enthusiasts. I don't think many serious or casual users will find the BMD cameras appealing. Where's the auto focus, auto white balance, auto exposure, auto face detection, auto scene? Everything you need is missing!

Rick Lang
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...i think every single soul who is waiting passionately for this camera should know of what it's actually gonna offer to them. whether it's more in line with television production (Lower iso & DR) or film production which needs just the opposite in terms of DR and sensitivity.

I think the lower sensitivity can be minimized where you can control the light but that still leaves a lot of low light situations that will be more difficult for the BMPC4K to capture well. Would you care to comment on what seems to me to be important in cinema and that is the colour you expect from the BMPC4K versus the BMCC when final deliverables are 2K or HD downscaled from 4K raw? My feeling is that improved colour from the BMPC4K due to debayering and downscaling from a higher resolution, although perhaps difficult to prove until we see comparison footage, will help compensate for some of the loss of dynamic range in the overall image quality.

Rick Lang
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Well that exactly what my guess is! about the color depth coz we'd certainly have double resolution to work with in post than what our final deliverables are gonna be (2k or HD). not sure how much of an advantage it is to downscale the footage when it comes to noise, color, DR and motion. Really!

I am afraid that lower sensitivity would kill this camera if it comes out really that bad, coz most of the end users of this camera would be amateurs who cannot afford high end cinema cameras with 4k resolution, in their respective domains; low light capability of the camera is as important as 4 times the resolution because of the hassles of carrying and buying a truck full of lighting equipments...

Take Care

If the lower sensitivity is at least ISO 600 versus the ISO 800 of the BMCC, I think people will not consider that important. If the ISO is 400, that does seem significantly less. But BMD may be weighing the 'base' ISO they need to set in order to get less noise and perhaps squeeze out another half-stop of dynamic range. I don't believe BMD will release a camera with a dynamic range of less than 12 stops. They have used that figure when talking about the BMPC4K. As for the 'base' speed, they have only said, it may be less than the BMCC, so they are not constrained at least by anything previously mentioned as a target.

I don't know if it's as simple as this, but which option would you choose assuming the noise floor was equivalent: ISO 640 with 11.5 stops dynamic range or ISO 400 with 12 stops?

Rick Lang
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Perhaps I am terribly wrong, but it seems to me that if we talk about using bmcc4k for a 2k/1080p finish/delivery we will gain following due to having 4 samples of the original to 1 sample of output when the image size is downsampled in a floating point environment to trade spatial resolution for color resolution:
True 4:4:4/higher color bit depth — because Bayer pattern structure is negated by down-sample and color quantization is improved by the math of (a+b+c+d)/4;
Noise floor drops 6db or roughly 2 stops, effectively improving usable dynamic range by 2 stops. This might lead to overall extended dynamic range, depending on how BMD comes up with their stats figures (ie is the dynamic range calculated as an absolute sensor ability or do they give us a usable dynamic range ie, what's considered to be noise free)
Hope my logic is transparent and ok.

Perhaps I am terribly wrong, but it seems to me that if we talk about using bmcc4k for a 2k/1080p finish/delivery we will gain following due to having 4 samples of the original to 1 sample of output when the image size is downsampled in a floating point environment to trade spatial resolution for color resolution:
True 4:4:4/higher color bit depth — because Bayer pattern structure is negated by down-sample and color quantization is improved by the math of (a+b+c+d)/4;
Noise floor drops 6db or roughly 2 stops, effectively improving usable dynamic range by 2 stops. This might lead to overall extended dynamic range, depending on how BMD comes up with their stats figures (ie is the dynamic range calculated as an absolute sensor ability or do they give us a usable dynamic range ie, what's considered to be noise free)
Hope my logic is transparent and ok.

Certainly BMD is only going to refer to usable dynamic range. I had no idea that going from 4K to 2K/HD would reduce the noise floor about 2 stops. That is good news. Thanks!

I was aware that if one shoots 4K and downscales to 2K/HD, the colour will improve. Resolve uses 32bit floating point for those calculations I believe so the resulting colour should show finer graduation.

Rick Lang
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I don't know if it's as simple as this, but which option would you choose assuming the noise floor was equivalent: ISO 640 with 11.5 stops dynamic range or ISO 400 with 12 stops?

Rick Lang
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Tough one, but i think for me both sensitivity and DR are equally important, cant see loosing one over the other. But in given scenario i'd certainly choose the first option coz i can live with half a stop less of DR than loosing essential sensitivity.

Thanx Rick Sir!

Certainly BMD is only going to refer to usable dynamic range. I had no idea that going from 4K to 2K/HD would reduce the noise floor about 2 stops. That is good news. Thanks!

I was aware that if one shoots 4K and downscales to 2K/HD, the colour will improve. Resolve uses 32bit floating point for those calculations I believe so the resulting colour should show finer graduation.

Rick Lang
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Although the fact that it is a Bayer pattern sensor might mean that there will be less of a benefit. If one assumes that the pattern is a classical
RGRGRG
GBGBGB
we might not see any improvement in any channels other than green (and only of 1 stop) as far as the noise floor is concerned.
All of this is just a rambling of mine and I am sure all of it is more complicated than I can comprehend.

I would be curious to poll the forum:

How many of you will cancel your BMPC4K order if you do not have an opportunity to inspect and grade footage prior to the release date?

I will, perhaps regrettably, cancel my order and wait or perhap buy another camera that cost even more, but has a solid reputation.

As a demonstration of corporate professionalism, I think that it is very important for a company in this field to provide its consumers with test footage a few weeks before the product is released and communicate when the release will be made for four primary reasons: 1) quality accountability; 2) respect for the consumer (they keep the company alive); 3) a demonstration of pride in one's product and a willingness to "show off"; and 4) the "proof is in the pudding" and when the proof of quality excels, it increases sales and builds a company’s positive reputation. I am a CEO of a company and I have learned that poor communication, arrogance, and expecting that people will always love you is the beginning of a company’s downfall. BMD is an innovative organization. I would hate to see the expectations listed above be considered unnecessary burdens.

I am hopeful that BMD will make an announcement shortly regarding the release of footage to the general public. It truly is in their best interest.

I have a BMCC and have pre-ordered the BMPC4K. Will I cancel my pre-order if no footage is released? NO.

I did not see any ungraded F5 / F55 footage before the camera started shipping... Did that stop people pre-ordering?

I think Blackmagic have proved, with the BMCC, that they can make a camera with color science that produces amazing images. That's enough for me to hold onto my pre-order.

Thanks for your comment, Adam ... your experience with the BMCC and confidence amongst many unknowns is inspiring. I still hope that BMD releases some footage for those of us who have no experience with the BMCC. That would very reassuring, as I know that I will be adding around another 3-4,000 US dollars for accessories. Thank god I already have Zeiss CP.2 and Duclos lenses and everything else I need other that a proper BMPC rig, SSDs, etc.

I would be curious to poll the forum:

How many of you will cancel your BMPC4K order if you do not have an opportunity to inspect and grade footage prior to the release date?

I will, perhaps regrettably, cancel my order and wait or perhap buy another camera that cost even more, but has a solid reputation...

I am hopeful that BMD will make an announcement shortly regarding the release of footage to the general public. It truly is in their best interest.

We who have closely followed BMD since NAB 2012 have learned that BMD will release footage and the cameras when they are satisfied that they are ready. We all hope that is in another month as BMD has indicated recently, but it could be earlier or later. Take heart that there were several people who thought the BMCC MFT might even be released after the new cameras but BMD finally began production volume shipments in June. Yes, very late and it's a long story you probably know by now.

It may be that the BMPCC is released before the BMPC4K and that shouldn't surprise anyone given the sensor is from a new supplier and it is a very complicated recipe to prepare your colour science and finish the firmware. But that's speculation and they may both ship about the same time. We all expect to see footage on or before those shipments and BMD has been very good in the past releasing footage even if via their beta testers. Some footage I have seen from other manufacturers has been extremely impressive and polished perfection. Do you think that tells you much about their camera? Of course it doesn't. It tells you a lot about a highly controlled professional production using the camera.

BMD have been good letting us see a variety of footage for the BMCC that can show the strengths and weaknesses. It's not always as pretty perhaps but it is a commendable approach to gauge the camera. And then your community here will be very quick to add a variety of stress tests on the camera that again may not look the best but help you quickly learn how the camera behaves quite possibly even before your order is fulfilled. And if you do keep your order, most vendors will take back the camera in the first few weeks if you are not satisfied with it so you may have nothing to fear. I think, just as has happened many times here, when you receive the camera and begin using it, you will be very happy with it. No doubt it's not going to be perfect from day one, but it will be most usable in your hands.

Rick Lang
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Well said, Rick. I appreciate your comments.

I suppose what I was getting at in my message was that manufacturers in this field might want to refrain from announcing products until those products have ALREADY been thoroughly beta-tested and the product is ready to go after rigorous testing. I think the seduction of NAB announcements causes many companies to look ill-prepared (not just BMD) and disorganized. If I ran my company that way, my reputation would be toast.

Any word if the 4k will have the sun dot, and is the jello any better or worse?

For a camera that is supposed to be shipping in a month, I figured some kind of demo video would be out in the wild.

Any word if the 4k will have the sun dot, and is the jello any better or worse?

For a camera that is supposed to be shipping in a month, I figured some kind of demo video would be out in the wild.

No rolling shutter = no jello

Well said, Rick. I appreciate your comments.

I suppose what I was getting at in my message was that manufacturers in this field might want to refrain from announcing products until those products have ALREADY been thoroughly beta-tested and the product is ready to go after rigorous testing. I think the seduction of NAB announcements causes many companies to look ill-prepared (not just BMD) and disorganized. If I ran my company that way, my reputation would be toast.

I agree that would be a good approach for many potential customers. BMD is far from alone in the industry in announcing products before they are ready to ship in volume. So the wait is uncertain and frustrating and sometimes costly for those planning on using the camera before they have received it. The benefit to customers is that these announcements are at the least a heads-up on what they can expect. Let's pretend these new cameras were available at NAB 2013. More than a few people that had just received their BMCC cameras might have been upset that they paid for cameras that they would have cancelled if they had only known about the BMPCC or the BMPC4K. We would have lots of threads bemoaning the arrival of the new cameras without warning!

I know what you mean, but there is a silver lining when items are announced before they are ready. We have months to consider the options and plan for the camera(s) most suited to our needs. And third-party after market have time to make accessories for the camera so that when the camera is in your hands, you can order whatever else you may need shortly afterwards. I think if the announcements in April are fulfilled by shipping products in July and August, everyone (BMD, accessory vendors, and we) will be more than satisfied.

Rick Lang
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July is here guys!!
Seems like BMD's still busy improving the color science of the
BMPC 4k before they take the plunge of showing us the test footage!

Ha! Now Rick (see above) has me thinking about BMPC4K rigging needs. What direction are folks taking? There is Arri and Wooden Camera. I have Arri stuff now, but the Wooden Camera rigs are looking nice. Anyone out there looking at other aftermarket providers? BTW, is the new Mac Pro a 4K dream or what - perhaps, I can sell my furniture.

...so where is the camera? Or footage for that matter, it's July and they will "start shipping", but we haven't even seen footage like with the Pocket Camera.

I would assume that we will not see the camera this month or probably not the next either... feel free to prove me wrong.

...so where is the camera? Or footage for that matter, it's July and they will "start shipping", but we haven't even seen footage like with the Pocket Camera.

I would assume that we will not see the camera this month or probably not the next either... feel free to prove me wrong.

I am sure nobody would have any strength to prove you wrong on this issue!!

Well, its my take that BMD will either timely deliver the Cams or loose the worth of their words as most of the top notches of BMD were confident and preaching in favor of timely delivery this time around. And as they said there no such sensor issue as was last time; i see no reason for now to push the panic button "IF OF COURSE" their words have any truth and were not misleading.

cheers

...so where is the camera? Or footage for that matter, it's July and they will "start shipping", but we haven't even seen footage like with the Pocket Camera. I would assume that we will not see the camera this month or probably not the next either... feel free to prove me wrong.

Is it August 1, 2013 already?

Feel free to start whining then, but until then ...



-

...so where is the camera? Or footage for that matter, it's July and they will "start shipping", but we haven't even seen footage like with the Pocket Camera. I would assume that we will not see the camera this month or probably not the next either... feel free to prove me wrong.

I am also wanting to see some footage from this machine, but I have no doubts that this camera will ship on time.

1. The sensor issue wasn't completely BMD fault...would you rather have a crap sensor or proper sensor?

2. Although it wasn't completely BMD fault, I would expect them to restore their reputation to the camera world and prove "we can do this" do all the naysayers (but at this point, is anyone doubting the quality of ANY BMD product?)

3. Don't forget, this was their first go at a "camera"

4. And....although it was their first camera, I'm extremely impressed with the quality to cost ratio, and for that alone I haven't even really thought about considering anything else....AND a free copy of resolve...

If it takes them a month or 2 to get all the orders out then so what, every company including Apple can struggle with the demand at times, it's what makes the world go round.

1. The sensor issue wasn't completely BMD fault...

2. Although it wasn't completely BMD fault, I would expect them to restore their reputation to the camera world and prove "we can do this" do all the naysayers (but at this point, is anyone doubting the quality of ANY BMD product?)

I don't get why so many postings imply that BM doesn't do all they can to ship the cameras as soon as possible. The cameras will come, once they are ready (and i am confident that the pocket CC is ready and will ship soon, while the production cam is probably not quite ready yet), and it's in both our and BMs interest to get them out as soon as possible. The sensor problems were not only "not completely" but "completely not" the fault of BM.

If it takes them a month or 2 to get all the orders out then so what,

It might take considerably longer than that, even if no problems arise, yet still i agree: so what! An innovative high value product at an insane low price is expected to create a large pile of preorders, so i don't think i'll see my preordered camera before fall, maybe winter, or even next spring. I knew that before hand, and i won't complain.

... An innovative high value product at an insane low price is expected to create a large pile of preorders, so i don't think i'll see my preordered camera before fall, maybe winter, or even next spring. I knew that before hand, and i won't complain.

When the dust has settled on these new cameras, it would be very interesting to know the ratio of camera models sold in the first year or two if the would also include the BMCC ratios. I'm not looking for volumes as that is very proprietary, but would be interesting to see the proportions of each model in another year:
BMCC EF 40%
BMCC MFT 10%
BMPCC 30%
BMPC4K EF 20%

The BMCC EF will likely by the highest proportion simply because it has been available the longest. In time, the BMPCC will likely be the biggest seller as it will also pickup sales as a B camera for those who have one of the other cameras.

Rick Lang
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

The sensor problems were not only "not completely" but "completely not" the fault of BM.

I just played it safe ; )

There is enough said about this 4K camera

I WOULD SAY LET'S SHOW US THE FOOTAGE WHAT THIS CAMERA CAN DELIVER !!!!!!

How about 1 frame just to wet our appetite?

Tim

How about 1 frame just to wet our appetite?

Tim

The reasons for the delay make one frame as likely as a clip.

The firmware (mostly colour science) is not yet producing the reults they want to show, at least consistantly (and it not being consistant is useless as then any given clip or frame wouldnt be that representitive.

They release a clip that shows any noticible errors, even with the caveat that the footage is from a beta camera and they are fixing it and the cameras chances of selling take a heavy blow.

How about 1 frame just to wet our appetite?

Tim

The reasons for the delay make one frame as likely as a clip.

The firmware (mostly colour science) is not yet producing the reults they want to show, at least consistantly (and it not being consistant is useless as then any given clip or frame wouldnt be that representitive.

They release a clip that shows any noticible errors, even with the caveat that the footage is from a beta camera and they are fixing it and the cameras chances of selling take a heavy blow.

Are you by any chance an employee of BMD or its representative or counsel here on its behalf?
And then how can you be so damn sure whats stuck the BMD for the delay?
I know people do silly things but its worst...come on don't defend or defy anything you have got no idea about!!
It's common here some people as if planted by BMD itself spreads misleading information.

And BTW everybody's got right to say what he wants to say except he doesnt confuse or mislead the others.

Isn't that what they did with the BMCC? I seem to recall JB offering the usual disclaimer that it was a prototype camera and not ready for prime time.

Believe me, I'd like to see some competently-shot BMPC-4K sample footage ASAP, but ...

Until the camera is ready to ship, it's footage is not ready to "show", either.

It's not hard to imagine a scenario that the camera (especially its firmware) becomes final as late as July 31, 2013 ... in which case, we might not see sample footage until sometime after that.

BMD has promised the new cams will start shipping (to their distributors & dealers) by July 31, 2013. If we're lucky that'll prove to be true; if we're insanely lucky they'll ship at some point before then. But given BMD's track record, either way I'm not holding my breath.

The new cams and their sample footage will start appearing when BMD thinks they're ready, and probably not a day sooner.

Looking forward to it ... hopefully it's very soon.

-

How about 1 frame just to wet our appetite?

Tim

The reasons for the delay make one frame as likely as a clip.

The firmware (mostly colour science) is not yet producing the reults they want to show, at least consistantly (and it not being consistant is useless as then any given clip or frame wouldnt be that representitive.

They release a clip that shows any noticible errors, even with the caveat that the footage is from a beta camera and they are fixing it and the cameras chances of selling take a heavy blow.

Are you by any chance an employee of BMD or its representative or counsel here on its behalf?
And then how can you be so damn sure whats stuck the BMD for the delay?
I know people do silly things but its worst...come on don't defend or defy anything you have got no idea about!!
It's common here some people as if planted by BMD itself spreads misleading information.

And BTW everybody's got right to say what he wants to say except he doesnt confuse or mislead the others.

No I'm not but given that JB who is working with them has said the reason there's no 4k footage is they aren't showing any till they are happy, and he is working close to them it's not hard to infer that thats the case.

I'm not intending on defending them. That is not my intent.I'm trying to offer a logical possibility based on the info we have been given.

What other logical answers for them not showing the footage is there apart from its not ready yet? If they have beautiful footage just waiting back there what possible advantage to them could there be in withholding it.

I'd love some footage, the 4k could make a lovely B cam for me, but unless its finalized footage it's actually damaging to my decision making as I'd be making a decision on footage that's not what the cameras capable of, or not consistently and in the pro world consistency is the key.

In fact I think BMD weren't being that bright in announcing a shipping date for the 4k when their all important image wasn't locked down, as it may well lead to another delay.

As for that last comment, at no point in that comment did I suggest that the person shouldn't post what they had, just try to explain the likely reason (that had come from someone who has worked with it) why we wouldn't see any, even a single frame.

I think most people on here arent so bothered if the 4k footage is good or not but want to see that the camera is in existence and developing with a footage. Even the Digital Bolex show a developmental footage from their camera and I don't recall any negative impact.