You want satisfied customers. Earn it.

I do have to say that it seems a little strange to see the same kind of discussions / complaints on this forum as on Kickstarter for projects that failed to meet the estimated shipping time. After what happened last year with the BMCC, I would have thought Blackmagic Design would try and play it safe, develop the BMCC Firmware first and then give us the next big thing. Instead, NAB came around and BMD felt they had to announce unfinished products once again.

Only time will tell how all of this will work out over the next few months, but it just seems a bit like BMD are running a little too fast for their own good... or rather, the customer's good. Don't get me wrong, announcing new cameras is great for competition reasons, but I'd like to see more commitment to the Firmware development of their existing product.

Remember the Golden Age of Consumerism. When companies could make mistakes and all you could do was write a letter and put a stamp on it and hope that someone got it and would maybe respond, maybe. Like, 6 to 8 weeks later.

But, that's all gone down the drain. Thanks a lot "internet".

Now companies get the added pleasure of listening to everyone's opinions, conspiracies and crazy ideas on how to make their products better and "sometimes" they listen and "sometimes" they respond.

But in truth they really don't have to. They don't even have to keep making products.
But, they do keep making them, and we keep buying them, (pre-orders on announcement day) and the world goes round.

"internet's" a two way street. The BUYER should still BEWARE and Paying full price for a pre-order is a little, ummm, not necessary. Shop around, the next click might have led to a small deposit or less.

And as my Mom would say "Don't count your chickens before they've hatched"
Wise words from an old lady.

+1

I understand your enthusiasm with BMD ... Are you trying to get into their good books so you can be on their beta list

Yes.

I knew it

BMD has apologized multiple times for BMCC shipping delays.

TBH they were pushed into explaining about the delays and apologies cost nothing. I'm a contributer in no small part in getting Grant to do that in here.

I remember on a forum once saying "customers are always right" a quote commonly used to uphold customer satisfaction, something that is also entrenched in the psych of British consumers. Suddenly I was jumped on by an angry mob of Americans saying "they are not always right, they don't know better, the manufacturer does as it pleases, don't like it bugger off...blah, blah, blah".
Reading comments on here I get the impression consumer rights and expectations are somewhat different in one country from another. A culture clash maybe? In the UK customer rarely if never capitulates to the whims of the seller. It is a very British habit of returning goods they bought, used but decide not to want it and get their full money back because consumer protection in the UK is very strong.

I remember on a forum once saying "customers are always right" a quote commonly used to uphold customer satisfaction, something that is also entrenched in the psych of British consumers. Suddenly I was jumped on by an angry mob of Americans saying "they are not always right, they don't know better, the manufacturer does as it pleases, don't like it bugger off...blah, blah, blah".
Reading comments on here I get the impression consumer rights and expectations are somewhat different in one country from another. A culture clash maybe? In the UK customer rarely if never capitulates to the whims of the seller. It is a very British habit of returning goods they bought, used but decide not to want it and get their full money back because consumer protection in the UK is very strong.

What? Consumer rights? You have the right to receive a pre-ordered device on the estimated date of arrival irrelevant of complications?

None of this is about getting a bad/faulty product or one you don't like, consumer rights cover you there. It's a manufacturing issue (even if it's just slow production) and no one but those directly involved can change that and consumer law wont change that either. If you're unhappy with the delay you have every right to cancel your pre-order for a full refund but that isn't BMD's department, that's your retailer.

I remember on a forum once saying "customers are always right" a quote commonly used to uphold customer satisfaction, something that is also entrenched in the psych of British consumers. Suddenly I was jumped on by an angry mob of Americans saying "they are not always right, they don't know better, the manufacturer does as it pleases, don't like it bugger off...blah, blah, blah".
Reading comments on here I get the impression consumer rights and expectations are somewhat different in one country from another. A culture clash maybe? In the UK customer rarely if never capitulates to the whims of the seller. It is a very British habit of returning goods they bought, used but decide not to want it and get their full money back because consumer protection in the UK is very strong.

What? Consumer rights? You have the right to receive a pre-ordered device on the estimated date of arrival irrelevant of complications?

None of this is about getting a bad/faulty product or one you don't like, consumer rights cover you there. It's a manufacturing issue (even if it's just slow production) and no one but those directly involved can change that and consumer law wont change that either. If you're unhappy with the delay you have every right to cancel your pre-order for a full refund but that isn't BMD's department, that's your retailer.

You quoting me of something I made no reference about BMD. It was a general consumer rights regarding the UK.
If its BMD you want to talk about, would it fall foul of UK consumer rights if someone who preorder and not recieve it after 6 months or a year? If they are a UK company then yes. Granted they are not but a UK reseller fronting the said company's product would be and in that case the penalty of the reseller would be to withdraw advertising of the product.

People have put in preorders and were separated with their money for a whole year.

Why would you preorder at a place that demands you pay before delivery? Choose more wisely and the issue goes away... This is a business decision of the STORE, not BlackMagic.

As a side note: If the price of the camera is in a range that it hurts you to put the money up, you really shouldn't buy it until you had it in your OWN hands in a store and were able to thoroughly test drive it.

I have to admit, I have been browsing this forum for a year now and only registered to comment on this matter.
I couldnt agree more, Im not a black magic customer. I am very interested in the camera and have been tempted to pre order a few times but it is absolutely absurd to me how these people run business and even worse how ignorant the fan boys on here are.
Comments of 'dont pre order it then, its a choice' etc. This camera was promised a year ago and some people still havent got it. Now I do understand the whole issue with this and all that BMD have done BUT there are some points that I would like to raise. Firstly its that BMD made very few updates, they didnt make them on time and most of them that they made didnt give much information. Secondly, they obviously screwed absolultely everyone of their customers by not giving ANYONE any news and then hiding it under a vail of new cameras at this years nab.
Now, what doesnt annoy me is that the BMCC could become obsolete like so many people are talking to and fro here but obviously the HUGE amount of design and time spent on TWO new cameras by this company when they havent fixed the issues with the first, or even got it into full production! They purposely didnt give anyone updates since november for this reason I believe and they havent even made proper full anouncements or comunicated with their customers properly.
I agree that theyve simply shot ahead and tried to grab a market that they obviously cant handle.
Its sad, I have a lot of high hopes and love for the cameras but unfortunately people all over the world are really feeling their sting of unprofessionalism.

And whatever your excuses are about why your heads up your ar*e, plain and simple, customers should not be treated like that by ANY company.

I remember on a forum once saying "customers are always right" a quote commonly used to uphold customer satisfaction, something that is also entrenched in the psych of British consumers. Suddenly I was jumped on by an angry mob of Americans saying "they are not always right, they don't know better, the manufacturer does as it pleases, don't like it bugger off...blah, blah, blah".
Reading comments on here I get the impression consumer rights and expectations are somewhat different in one country from another. A culture clash maybe? In the UK customer rarely if never capitulates to the whims of the seller. It is a very British habit of returning goods they bought, used but decide not to want it and get their full money back because consumer protection in the UK is very strong.

What? Consumer rights? You have the right to receive a pre-ordered device on the estimated date of arrival irrelevant of complications?

None of this is about getting a bad/faulty product or one you don't like, consumer rights cover you there. It's a manufacturing issue (even if it's just slow production) and no one but those directly involved can change that and consumer law wont change that either. If you're unhappy with the delay you have every right to cancel your pre-order for a full refund but that isn't BMD's department, that's your retailer.

You quoting me of something I made no reference about BMD. It was a general consumer rights regarding the UK.
If its BMD you want to talk about, would it fall foul of UK consumer rights if someone who preorder and not recieve it after 6 months or a year? If they are a UK company then yes. Granted they are not but a UK reseller fronting the said company's product would be and in that case the penalty of the reseller would be to withdraw advertising of the product.

Sorry, I mistook you for speaking on topic.
Can you really take action against a company who haven't delivered a product by an estimated delivery schedule?

What was estimated about it? The said they would deliver July 2012 and didn't. My word please fanboys wakeup!

What was estimated about it? The said they would deliver July 2012 and didn't. My word please fanboys wakeup!

I never ordered the BMCC, however everywhere I saw pre-order offers it stated "estimated July 2012".

"Shipping in July".

Sorry, I mistook you for speaking on topic.
Can you really take action against a company who haven't delivered a product by an estimated delivery schedule?

YES!
In Europe you can take legal actions against a company for not delivering goods at the promised schedule.
It is called misleading advertising and is illegal in the whole region.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/consumer-ma ... dex_en.htm

As Taikonaut said many americans feel they should attack other consumers who are just asking for their rights to be respected
If you don´t have these rights, like you should, it is not our fault.. you should fight to have your rights, not i fight the ones who have them

CUSTOMERS ARE ALWAYS RIGHT!
that is a european dogma that protect us from being abused by corporations

CUSTOMERS ARE ALWAYS RIGHT!

No they are not... some are ignorant, some are stupid, some misinterpret what they read/see/hear, some are mean and unfair, some are just plain wrong... and of course SOME are right...

What was estimated about it? The said they would deliver July 2012 and didn't. My word please fanboys wakeup!

I never ordered the BMCC, however everywhere I saw pre-order offers it stated "estimated July 2012".

Nope "Shipping July" was tag on BMD site and someone correct me if im wrong but didn't BMD say "now shipping" when they weren't actually shipping at one point?

Nope "Shipping July" was tag on BMD site and someone correct me if im wrong but didn't BMD say "now shipping" when they weren't actually shipping at one point?

I have a dim memory that you're correct, but I could be mistaken. I think it was briefly changed to "now shipping" about when the first batch of BMCCs shipped out, before they announced the sensor-related problems.

A copy of Grant Petty's first shipping status message is here:
http://herefortheweather.wordpress.com/ ... ant-petty/

I'm not interested in re-hashing the original BMCC shipping debacle.

However, I admit I was taken aback when BMD announced last week at NAB 2013 that they expect the new BMPC-4K & BMPCC cams to start shipping by the end of this July. It was shocking to hear them again announce an "expected" shipping date at all, especially after what has happened over the past year. I frankly don't understand why BMD feels compelled to announce a deadline. Why not just say "Coming soon", or "by late 2013". In other words, under-promise but over-deliver.

I'll be very happy if the new cams do in fact start shipping, even if it's in relatively small but steady quantities, by the end of this July or even into August. And then ramp-up after that. That would be a fairly common production pattern for most products & manufacturers.

But if BMD stumbles again and isn't shipping any of the new cameras by the end of August ... ugh.

I understand there can be circumstances outside a manufacturer's control. That's one of the many reasons to not announce a too-specific deadline. Why BMD continues to set themselves up for criticism is something I don't understand. I also don't lose sleep over it.

Meanwhile, I look forward to receiving a BMPC-4K ASAP. Or, if I don't like the sample videos for it (when they eventually appear), I'll get a BMCC-MFT instead (whenever it appears).

Cheers.

Nope "Shipping July" was tag on BMD site and someone correct me if im wrong but didn't BMD say "now shipping" when they weren't actually shipping at one point?

"" It was shocking to hear them again announce an "expected" shipping date at all, especially after what has happened over the past year. I frankly don't understand why BMD feels compelled to announce a deadline. Why not just say "Coming soon", or "by late 2013". In other words, under-promise but over-deliver.
""
I understand there can be circumstances outside a manufacturer's control. That's one of the many reasons to not announce a too-specific deadline. Why BMD continues to set themselves up for criticism is something I don't understand. I also don't lose sleep over it.""

I couldn't agree with you more here, Peter. The PR and Advertising folks over at BM should really learn this lesson quick and stop announcing ship dates.
It's not to their or the customers benefit and unfortunately overshadows what is a successful 1st go at making an inexpensive and suitable product.
("Making" not "Shipping")

Well let me explain for you why Peter. This is actually a very good move from BMD if they were an evil corp. Not saying they are but please hear me out!

Announce a camera they know they cannot deliver on time, but as they announce the date they have effectively managed to grab a corner of the camera market they don't actually have yet. I mean why buy a 12k F5 when you have a promise of a 4k bmpc only a few months away? By doing this they have made numerous people buy accessories for their imaginary cameras, thus effectively taking away other manufactures clientèle. With the promise of a deadline they cannot keep they have effectively cornered the market with vaporware.

Now effectively people have no choice but to wait for their bmpc & bmpcc as they have spent money on accessories and deposits on a promise.

This is the only reason I can think of why BMD would do this again. I personally wouldn't put it passed them. But thats just my two cents!

Well let me explain for you why Peter. This is actually a very good move from BMD if they were an evil corp. Not saying they are but please hear me out!

Announce a camera they know they cannot deliver on time, but as they announce the date they have effectively managed to grab a corner of the camera market they don't actually have yet. I mean why buy a 12k F5 when you have a promise of a 4k bmpc only a few months away? By doing this they have made numerous people buy accessories for their imaginary cameras, thus effectively taking away other manufactures clientèle. With the promise of a deadline they cannot keep they have effectively cornered the market with vaporware.

Now effectively people have no choice but to wait for their bmpc & bmpcc as they have spent money on accessories and deposits on a promise.

This is the only reason I can think of why BMD would do this again. I personally wouldn't put it passed them. But thats just my two cents!

I think you right about this

Well let me explain for you why Peter. This is actually a very good move from BMD if they were an evil corp. Not saying they are but please hear me out!

Announce a camera they know they cannot deliver on time, but as they announce the date they have effectively managed to grab a corner of the camera market they don't actually have yet. I mean why buy a 12k F5 when you have a promise of a 4k bmpc only a few months away? By doing this they have made numerous people buy accessories for their imaginary cameras, thus effectively taking away other manufactures clientèle. With the promise of a deadline they cannot keep they have effectively cornered the market with vaporware.

Now effectively people have no choice but to wait for their bmpc & bmpcc as they have spent money on accessories and deposits on a promise.

This is the only reason I can think of why BMD would do this again. I personally wouldn't put it passed them. But thats just my two cents!

I think you right about this

BMD might not deliver in mass quantities right off the bat, but the camera is still shipping. I'm speaking about the 4K camera. If they ship 100 units at the end of July, it's shipping. It might not be readily available but it's still shipping if they keep the flow going. I know it's frustrating to wait, and that's why I put my pre-order in at 4am the night the pictures were leaked that BMD was releasing new cameras. A side note, it didn't cost me anything to pre-order. Pre-order early if you want one.

I think BMD said July again because they feel they can ship a few cams at the end of July. They were ready to do so with the BMCC when the sensor problem occurred. Or should I say, they shipped at the end of August because there was a month delay because they were still fine-tuning. Again, take it as an estimate. That's the best way to look at it.

Well let me explain for you why Peter. This is actually a very good move from BMD if they were an evil corp. Not saying they are but please hear me out!

Announce a camera they know they cannot deliver on time, but as they announce the date they have effectively managed to grab a corner of the camera market they don't actually have yet. I mean why buy a 12k F5 when you have a promise of a 4k bmpc only a few months away? By doing this they have made numerous people buy accessories for their imaginary cameras, thus effectively taking away other manufactures clientèle. With the promise of a deadline they cannot keep they have effectively cornered the market with vaporware.

Now effectively people have no choice but to wait for their bmpc & bmpcc as they have spent money on accessories and deposits on a promise.

This is the only reason I can think of why BMD would do this again. I personally wouldn't put it passed them. But thats just my two cents!

I think you right about this

By the way, why are you spending money on deposits? Find a company that puts you on the list for free. That whole deposit thing is BS in my opinion. As for buying accessories... why? Do that after you get the cam. The prices might come down by then. Such is the case with SSDs.

Well let me explain for you why Peter. This is really a very good move from BMD if they were an evil corp. Not saying they are but please hear me out!

Announce a camera they know they cannot deliver on time, but as they announce the date they have effectively managed to grab a corner of the camera market they don't actually have yet. I mean why buy a 12k F5 when you have a promise of a 4k bmpc only a few months away? By doing this they have made numerous people buy accessories for their imaginary cameras, thus effectively taking away other manufactures clientèle. With the promise of a deadline they cannot keep they have effectively cornered the market with vaporware.

Now effectively people have no choice but to wait for their bmpc & bmpcc as they have spent money on accessories and deposits on a promise.

This is the only reason I can think of why BMD would do this again. I personally wouldn't put it passed them. But thats just my two cents!

I think you right about this

By the way, why are you spending money on deposits? Find a company that puts you on the list for free. That whole deposit thing is BS in my opinion. As for buying accessories... why? Do that after you get the cam. The prices might come down by then. Such is the case with SSDs.

BTW. Why are you assuming that I did? The fact remains people did (I assume maybe you did too seeing as we're assuming here now?) and what's wrong with that? Is it so bad people took BMD for their word? Honestly the mind boggles with some of you lot... You don't trust their dates but stick by them... then you fanboys here say, well actually no we're not implying that when in actuality you bloody well are!

And yes a 100 units to the US does very well mean it hasn't shipped to my home country. UK saw none of that. Plus there were nowhere near 100 shipped last July. Try 0. Zero. Zilch. Nada

Well let me explain for you why Peter. This is actually a very good move from BMD if they were an evil corp. Not saying they are but please hear me out!

Announce a camera they know they cannot deliver on time, but as they announce the date they have effectively managed to grab a corner of the camera market they don't actually have yet. I mean why buy a 12k F5 when you have a promise of a 4k bmpc only a few months away? By doing this they have made numerous people buy accessories for their imaginary cameras, thus effectively taking away other manufactures clientèle. With the promise of a deadline they cannot keep they have effectively cornered the market with vaporware.

Now effectively people have no choice but to wait for their bmpc & bmpcc as they have spent money on accessories and deposits on a promise.

This is the only reason I can think of why BMD would do this again. I personally wouldn't put it passed them. But thats just my two cents!

I'm not sure I characterize BMD as "evil", or guilty of "FUD", but their tendency to pre-announce products with relatively far-off "expected" ship dates sure is a PITA.

Some companies announce far-looking, over-the-horizon, product/product line "roadmaps". These roadmaps often include approx. target dates (such as "Q3 next year", or "Summer 2014", etc.). Most product roadmaps I've seen have purposefully vague dates and include qualifiers & disclaimers to make it crystal clear that the feature & dates aren't set in stone. The roadmaps give a quasi-specific hint of the general direction a product or product line is headed in, but they aren't product announcements, and they're not cast in stone.

There are also companies who only announce products the same day/week/month in which the product will actually ship. They'll officially, publicly announce a product for the first time, and that the product is "available today", or "available in two weeks", etc. And then, ~90% of the time, actually start shipping the product when they said they would.

But when BMD makes a new product announcement they say they "expect" or "hope" to start shipping it in about 3-4 months or so. Their announcements are typically both very specific (including product specs, etc.) and also bizarrely vague. They imply the product is all but ready to sell, except they don't know for sure when they'll be able to start selling it!

This will cause some naive consumers to believe the announced BMD product is "real" (it's got published specs, right?) and therefore worthy of placing a pre-order with a non-refundable deposit.

It also causes some consumers to think, "Why buy the generally-similar existing Sony/Canon/Panasonic product that costs more?", because the less-expensive BMD product seems so "real".

And some folks will run out and buy expensive accessories/media for use with the newly-announced BMD gear, because, heck, they'll be using it all together very, very soon, right?

I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

Well, of course, we now know the answer. BMD's management appear to have learned a lesson from the BMCC shipping (and component supply) debacle, but it's apparently the wrong lesson. They act as if they can "power through" the kind of issues that caused (and continue to cause) BMCC supply to lag far behind demand.

Maybe it's not evil. Maybe it's just some kind of corporate machismo (bluster?) that caused BMD at NAB last week to announce new cameras 4 months before they're ready to ship?

Alternatively, BMD could have just waited a few months until the new cameras are, in fact, ready.

Then have John Brawley shoot some kick-*ss sample footage, and then announce them -- "shipping within 30 days!" -- to the world via the internet and any trade show or event that happens to be handy. Doesn't have to be NAB, or IBC, or CES, etc. These days it doesn't matter much, especially given BMD's "low, low price" market niche.

So, when I say I don't understand why BMD did what they did at NAB last week, in a way I wasn't totally surprised. A tiny bit disappointed, and mystified, and excited all at the same time, but not really surprised.

It's going to be a long 3-4 months ...

Cheers.

P.S.: Cue the early pre-release sample footage and dog & pony show -- now!

A copy of Grant Petty's first shipping status message is here:
http://herefortheweather.wordpress.com/ ... ant-petty/

Are you sure that's his first shipping status message? I remember w8ing on a few "prominent bloggers" to get their cameras and give feedback. I vaguely remember other "reasons" for delays early on when the July d8 was missed.

BTW. Why are you assuming that I did? The fact remains people did (I assume maybe you did too seeing as we're assuming here now?) and what's wrong with that? Is it so bad people took BMD for their word? Honestly the mind boggles with some of you lot... You don't trust their dates but stick by them... then you fanboys here say, well actually no we're not implying that when in actuality you bloody well are!

And yes a 100 units to the US does very well mean it hasn't shipped to my home country. UK saw none of that. Plus there were nowhere near 100 shipped last July. Try 0. Zero. Zilch. Nada

Now you're assuming. I didn't pay anything until my camera shipped. I never said anything about 100 units to America only. Many companies have a smaller amount of units upon release date. Microsoft with Xbox, Sony with Playstation, Nintendo with Wii, Panasonic with the HVX200, Canon with the 5D MK2 and MK3, the Canon 7D, the list goes on. Not everyone is able to meet the demand or supply as many units as Apple does, and even Apple sells out. My point is, if they ship 100 units (to anywhere, not just the US) then they are in fact shipping the product. 5 units shipping and saying they're shipping is, on the other hand, a cop out. If things go according to plan and they don't run into some crazy problem, they'll continue to ship after the initial shipment is made.

How am I sticking by a release date? I said I'm taking the July release date as an estimate. That's all. I fully expect them to release it within give or take 2 months or so, but I have a good feeling they'll ship end of July. How does that make me "a fanboy that doesn't trust their release dates but sticks by them?" That doesn't make sense. I clearly stated that I personally will take the stated release date as an estimate for my own peace of mind. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't make me a fanboy. You just use that term so that you can insult me. That's okay. That's your problem, not mine.

Also, I refuse to side with your argument that BMD forced you to spend your own money (which is in your complete control in your own bank account) on accessories on a camera you expect will be shipping. Last time I checked my account, I didn't see a charge in my checking account for accessories that I didn't want to purchase willingly. I would never buy additional SSDs or anything until I know my camera is shipping to me because I'm smart enough to know that the price will most likely come down by the time it ships. You saying that BMD is forcing you to buy things reminds me of a child that doesn't want to take responsibility for his own actions. I'm not saying that you're a spoiled child, it just reminds me of that type of situation.

No one makes you buy accessories. That's your choice and yours alone. Then again, the world (and many jail cells) are filled with people who don't want to take responsibility for their own actions and you can't reason with them. So... let's just agree to disagree.

Are you sure that's his first shipping status message? I remember w8ing on a few "prominent bloggers" to get their cameras and give feedback. I vaguely remember other "reasons" for delays early on when the July d8 was missed.

Thunderbolt certification was one (That's INTEL)

ProRes was the other. (That's Apple)

jb

Are you sure that's his first shipping status message? I remember w8ing on a few "prominent bloggers" to get their cameras and give feedback. I vaguely remember other "reasons" for delays early on when the July d8 was missed.

Thunderbolt certification was one (That's INTEL)

ProRes was the other. (That's Apple)

jb

Whatever the reason, I just hope the MFT models start shipping soon, because I'm hoping to put it to work on my next gig... but the way things are looking, it seems like about a 50/50 chance that I'll have my BMCC in time. If not, I'll end up doing the first shoot on my Nex-7 instead, because I'm certainly not going to switch in the middle of a project.

Here's to hoping!

At least it's likely to be in my hands in time for the environmental documentaries and the web series I'm going to be working on, those are farther out.

A copy of Grant Petty's first shipping status message is here:
http://herefortheweather.wordpress.com/ ... ant-petty/

Are you sure that's his first shipping status message? I remember w8ing on a few "prominent bloggers" to get their cameras and give feedback. I vaguely remember other "reasons" for delays early on when the July d8 was missed.

Hi Marc: This is first message posted by Grant Petty here on BMD's forums on the topic of the BMCC, on 9/25/12. I posted a copy of it (and all his subsequent BMCC "shipping status" messages) on my blog in case they went missing from here for whatever reason. You know: "Trust but verify."

I think there may have been a few related posts before this one from BMD employees or JB on BMCuser.com or DVXuser.com. My memory is that a few different reasons were given for the apparent "delay" between Aug. 1 and Sept. 25, 2012 (when Grant posted this first BMCC "shipping status" message).

Seems like only yesterday ...

Actually, I'm very happy what I declined my BMCC order at B&H, very satisfied with that.
And here we are, 4k camera came out. i made a new pre-order (it seems like i always will be in "pre" production status). will see what will happen on July 25th. Should be one of the firsts... )) and if anything I think we will receive it by NAB 2014 )) good luck to everyone

BTW, John (Brawley), if you have this information, when should we expect some DNG sample files from 4K camera? may or june?

BTW, John (Brawley), when should we expect for some DNG sample files from 4K camera? may or june?

I think sooner rather than later.

jb

lol, got you ))

I just very curious about the quality of the compression.

BTW, John (Brawley), when should we expect for some DNG sample files from 4K camera? may or june?

I think sooner rather than later.

jb

That's far too precise.

BTW, John (Brawley), when should we expect for some DNG sample files from 4K camera? may or june?

I think sooner rather than later.

jb

Very much looking forward to it! Thanks, JB!

-

Wow..!! It is so informative. I like the complete post. It is very very helpful to me and many other people. I agree to the title. Satisfied customers are not bought, they need to be earned. Very well said. Good images and expressions. Thanks for the post.

Tomski,
Please don't take the ridiculous feedback to your topic here to heart. The people that visit these forums are obviously going to be pro BMD, so don't think what they say is what the majority thinks.

I believe the majority feel as you do. In fact I 100% agree with you. Also, I love how these people are calling you a "psychotic ranter" when saying such thing ironically makes THEM that themselves. You were polite in your thoughts yet you get abuse back. I see this as 100% fanboy feedback, the worst breed of internet dwellers are these fanboys.

So please, take heart in knowing that most people feel the way you do. In fact in any company, from Sony to Canon, Apple to MS you will always get fanboys, but more importantly you will always get level heading individuals like yourself that complain for the RIGHT reasons only to be called psychotic by those aforementioned fanboys.

Final word : - The only "psycho's" here are those that do not believe that false advertisement and continual delays is a bad thing for the industry. BMD are cornering the market on false promises and taking money away from other respectable companies (e.g Canon) with vaporware promises and the continual untruth of "everything is going much faster now".

I had a camera BMCC in my hands for one day but sold it for a profit and had someone drive from another country 11 hours non stop to get their hands on the camera. All because someone told him at NAB (I know who but wont say out of respect) that Germany would probably be the last market to see BMD products. He was desperate for it as he needed it for his business. Throughout all this he still believes in BMD. Good on him for being forgiving. I on the other hand cannot be so forgiving.

PS - Before anyone says I am anti BMD please see my sig,

Call me a fanboy but they are doing us all a big favor by raising the bar and lowering costs on state of the art cinematic quality at a consumer Price. Hence all of the rants.

Honestly I've had my moments of frustration with BMD. At times their PR and customer service can be aggravating. But while I have encountered frustrating circumstances while dealing with them, ultimately they made things right.

Sure it's annoying that they keep promising and missing dates. But maybe we should all just be used to it by now...

The cameras aren't perfect. Nothing is. They have qwerks, no doubt about it... But I am very, VERY, happy with the images coming out of my pocket camera. It was $1,000 and the images look as good or better than cameras costing MANY times more.

for my $1,000 I am a satisfied customer.

lol the last three posts crack me up!

Before announcing nonexistent products, make sure they are ready for delivery, as do all other brands (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Red etc. ..)
A serious company does not update the monthly delivery date.
Is damage to your image and name.
Lose of credibility, in the vast market of cinema.

Stay Tuned & Take Care

-RED-

I'm very happy with the Pocket Cinema Camera.
It's a work of art.
I look forward to RAW, and to the 4K.
Thank you Blackmagic.

I don't see this as a problem with the camera.....it is a problem with the customer treatment policies of this company. the 1st gen camera STILL has undelivered promises. I don't mean things like audio meters and battery indicators (which were never promised)...i mean things like printing on the box that says "professional in camera audio" and "shoot in video lut to deliver ready to edit footage" (not direct quotes from box). Those 2 items alone make this camera an undelivered promise. I still love the footage mine has given me, but having to run double system sound on a camera that has proper input but no functioning and having to deliver footage to a client with their fire-engine red product that the in-camera lut distorts to orange are examples of undelivered promises.

TO make matters worse, and this is my biggest problem with BM...is the LACK of communication by them. As a customer, when I have a problem with a product, I want to hear FROM THE MANUFACTURER about what I can expect. Tell me you are working on...tell me you know it cannot ever be corrected.....but DAMN TELL ME SOMETHING!!!

Even Jim Jannard, multi-billionaire founder of RED will jump in on forums to report that he is directing his team ot resolve issues and to let us RED owners know he has our back when it comes to support. Now many of you may argue there is a vast difference in pricing of these products....but I don't believe it is about that. BM APPEARS to have a policy that prohibits engineers from getting on these forums to tell us the skinny on our problems and requests. Sure, you can open a ticket on an issue...but to what point. My 3 month long open ticket on the rec709 in camera color has had no resolution OR even comment on what is being done. I don't need a hard date of when it will be fixed....but when I think BM is putting their team to work on solving these problems, then see the new FW update is out and addresses nothing on the 1st gen cameras.....why should I trust they give a crap about me....a customer....an investor.

Bottom line....you cannot trust BM to deliver anything at this point....so take a gamble on a purchase...but for a real paying gig.....don't gamble....grab a tried and true working camera without shortcomings.

btw....last time I posted a thread asking for better communication on these issues....I was swept to "off-topic"...the category of anything NOT BM related.....another sure sign of lack of respect for us.

I think the OP statement is incorrect.

I believe that most customers of BMD cameras are very satisfied. Prospective customers, i.e. those waiting for their camera order to arrive or for updates on future cameras not yet available, are likely to be unsatisfied.

Jules

+1 to shanepeters@bellsouth.net's post. Undelivered promises on the BMCC.

Fortunately I almost always shoot raw (2.4k res is irresistible) so I'm not affected by the red/bad video LUT issue... but audio meters/decent audio in general would be great.

I went and bought a pocket camera and it's sooooo much fun lol. I probably won't use it for anything professional anytime soon (why when I have 2.4k raw cameras) but it's so cool to be able to use my C-mount 16mm lenses on something digital .

You don't HAVE to buy.

You don't HAVE to Pre Order.

If you choose to do so, do it based on the features that are officially announced...

I'd say having a feature printed right on the front of the products box is pretty official, no?

I don't see this as a problem with the camer.....it is a problem with the customer treatment policies of this company. the 1st gen camera STILL has un-delivered promises. I don't mean things like audio meters and battery indicators (which were never promised)...i mean things like printing on the box that says "professional in camera audio" and "shoot in video lut to deliver ready to edit footage" (not direct quotes from box). Those 2 items alone make this camera an undelivered promise. I still love the footage mine has given me, but having to run double system sound on a camera that has proper input but no functioning and having to deliver footage to a client with thier fire-engine red product that the in-camera lut distorts to orange are examples of undelivered promises.

TO make matters worse, and this is my biggest problem with BM...is the LACK of communication by them. As a customer, when I have a problem with a product, I want to hear FROM THE MANUFACTURER about what I can expect. Tell me you are working on...tell me you know it cannot ever be corrected.....but DAMN TELL ME SOMETHING!!!

Even Jim Jannard, multi-billionaire founder of RED will jump in on forums to report that he is directing his team ot resolve issues and to let us RED owners know he has our back when it comes to support. Now many of you may argue there is a vast difference in pricing of these products....but I don't believe it is about that. BM APPEARS to have a policy that prohibits engineers from getting on these forums to tell us the skinny on our problems and requests. Sure, you can open a ticket on an issue...but to what point. My 3 month long open ticket on the rec709 in camera color has had no resolution OR even comment on what is being done. I don't need a hard date of when it wll be fixed....but when I think BM is putting their team to work on solving these problems, then see the new FW update is out and addresses nothing on thte 1st gen cameras.....why should I trust they give a crap about me....a customer....an investor.

Bottom line....you cannot trust BM to deliver anything at this point....so take a gamble on a purchase...but for a real paying gig.....don't gamble....grab a tried and true working camera without shortcomings.

btw....last time I posted a thread asking for better communication on these issues....I was swept to "off-topic"...the category of anything NOT BM related.....another sure sign of lack of respect for us.

So true. And so the saga continues, week after week, month after month, of nothing for the BMCC EF orginal camera. And as you said, posts about cameras and short comings are moved off to the back alleys of etherland........

It's not why I am complaining.....I bought the 1st gen, and it now appears the unresolved issues with it (color space on video lut, audio issues, etc.) are going to go unresolved. I won't buy from BM again because I have no faith that they will ever stand behind their product.

Waiting on a release is frustrating, but understandable...however, perhaps BM should not be so quick to announce something just to look good when they don't have the parts to back up a delivery date. Canon does not announce new cams until they are in the box and ready to ship. They know better. We might read about rumors on the web, but when you see the product listing pop up on B&H, you can click and order that day...and it will ship.

Why BM chooses to make empty promises over and over baffles me. I guess they just think differently about customer relations down under.

Well hey, I pre ordered my bmcc and waited 9 months for it, because I pre-ordered it! Delays will always happen, but if you have the determination or will power, you will wait for what you purchased. With that said I also am waiting for the 4k bmpc. Am I disappointed that I haven't received it even though it was promised in July? Sure I am, will I keep waiting? Sure I will.

Call me a spineless consumer, or call me a smart determined individual waiting for what he paid for. Regardless, you will not see me complaining about time frames or causing large stinks on the forums from the manufacturer in which I pre ordered my camera from. The fire has already been lit under the tail of black magic, what's the use in pouring more gasoline on it?