Monochrome camera

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Luca Di Gioacchino

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Monochrome camera

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 2:54 pm

I know this is a long shot but any chance we could see BMD manufacture a monochrome camera?
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 4:49 pm

RED does not even sell a lot of them..... ;) BMD can only develop something that will sell in BIG numbers otherwise the development costs are way too high..
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Luca Di Gioacchino

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 4:56 pm

One can wish :)
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rick.lang

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 4:57 pm

Never say never, but I think it would be unlikely. There are monochrome options available on some other digital cinema cameras, but they come at quite a premium in terms of cost given the relatively small market interested in the option of a true monochrome sensor assembly.

At this point, we can just fake it visually in post with desaturated images. The post option may not be trivial though because you need to choose how you want the various colours to reproduce in shades of grey. What will green look like versus red? What will yellow look like versus blue?


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Luca Di Gioacchino

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 5:02 pm

I know it's highly unlikely but I thought I'd put the idea out there nonetheless; the universe works in mysterious ways.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 6:17 pm

Leica makes a Monochrome Camera, which costs almost twice its color cousin.
The advantage is higher resolution from a given sensor, as all the pixels are used for the mono image. You also get smoother transition and more shades of gray. I believe the Bolex D and the AF100 both shot monochrome mode, but not sure how they handled the image as a desaturated color or went monochrom on all or most of the pixels. However, the Bayer filter is still present on both cameras.
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Last edited by Denny Smith on Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Luca Di Gioacchino

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostSat Jan 06, 2018 3:20 pm

I'd love to see one. Does anyone else feel the same?
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John Brawley

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostSat Jan 06, 2018 3:36 pm

Luca Di Gioacchino wrote:I'd love to see one. Does anyone else feel the same?


I do.

It was something I was hoping would be available for the Big URSA.

And yes the advantage is mostly that the ISO sensitivity is much higher because you are removing the Bayer filter in front of the sensor that takes away a few stops of light to work.

It's so niche I don't think it will be something that BMD do. As a smaller company they have to be focussed on doing products that sell in higher volume.

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Luca Di Gioacchino

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostSat Jan 06, 2018 3:50 pm

I agree that it's niche, but there's always room for B&W films, even today. Some of the best films I've seen recently were in b&W, such as "The Eyes of My Mother".
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Kim Janson

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostSat Jan 06, 2018 4:39 pm

Basically it would require just removing (not implementing Bauer filter in the first place) and and SW that understands that it ti BW video.

There is instructions how to remove the Bauer filter, but looks really risky.
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Luca Di Gioacchino

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostSat Jan 06, 2018 4:45 pm

I am not talking about a hack but a proper, dedicated Monochrome camera, like Red's or Arri's. LInk to sample footage below:
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Kim Janson

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostSat Jan 06, 2018 5:07 pm

well, removing the Bauer filter would make it a proper BW camera and simple SW change (SW understandign the pixels are not RGB but all BW) would do the rest. I am only saying sould not be too difficult for BMD to provide such version of their camera if there is demand, more than few.
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Luca Di Gioacchino

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostSat Jan 06, 2018 5:46 pm

Well, we're got two for. If anyone else is interested in seeing a BMD Monochrome camera, please let your voices be heard. BMD will listen.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostSat Jan 06, 2018 10:54 pm

I would live to see a Monochrom BM Camera, perhaps a Micro Monochrome :?:
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Luca Di Gioacchino

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostSun Jan 07, 2018 1:13 am

I second a Monochrome Micro Camera. I own the micro and love it.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostSun Jan 07, 2018 4:52 am

I was a interested in a monochrome camera, but now we need something better (higher lattitude and resolution than the pocket etc).
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Kim Janson

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostSun Jan 07, 2018 5:57 am

Getting rid of the Bayer filter gives all pixels BW. there should not be any moire and more light will get to the pixels. The Micro camera as true BW camera should be pretty good.
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Lee Gauthier

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostMon Jan 22, 2018 5:41 pm

FWIW, converting to B&W using desat isn't the best option. It doesn't create the same image as a B&W sensor. There are many recipes for creating B&W from color, but you can get very good results easily by converting to LAB space and using the Luma component for B&W. If you want more of a Tri-X Pan look, you can add a knee & shoulder curve.

Image
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostMon Jan 22, 2018 7:35 pm

Lee Gauthier wrote:FWIW, converting to B&W using desat isn't the best option. It doesn't create the same image as a B&W sensor. There are many recipes for creating B&W from color, but you can get very good results easily by converting to LAB space and using the Luma component for B&W. If you want more of a Tri-X Pan look, you can add a knee & shoulder curve.

Image

Very cool. Please forgive my ignorance here, but what's the method to accomplish that in Resolve? You can set the color space of a node to LAB, and you can turn off individual channels, but that only means they aren't affected by the adjustments made to the node. I can't figure out how is it possible to actually cleave off the AB channels from the signal so you're left with just the L channel.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostMon Jan 22, 2018 7:41 pm

Yes, me too, how did you do this. Any chance for a step-by-step demo?
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Luca Di Gioacchino

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostMon Jan 22, 2018 8:27 pm

I use this method of converting a node's color space to LAB to denoise or shrapen only the image's luma channel.
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CaptainHook

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostTue Jan 23, 2018 12:40 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:what's the method to accomplish that in Resolve? You can set the color space of a node to LAB, and you can turn off individual channels, but that only means they aren't affected by the adjustments made to the node. I can't figure out how is it possible to actually cleave off the AB channels from the signal so you're left with just the L channel.

Change the node to LAB, uncheck L* (channel 1) and set pivot to 0.5, then contrast to 0.0. I don't think this will match Photoshop LAB though.

Personally I like to use the RGB mixer with monochrome checked and blend the channels to create my own B&W conversion (as one method at least).
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostTue Jan 23, 2018 7:24 am

Thanks Hook! I forgot to consider the contrast control as a method there.

CaptainHook wrote:Personally I like to use the RGB mixer with monochrome checked and blend the channels to create my own B&W conversion (as one method at least).


I’ve played around with that method, but found it was pretty easy to end up adding/revealing noise. How did you deal with the noise? It’s also entirely possible I was doing something wrong and the noise was user error.
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CaptainHook

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostTue Jan 23, 2018 10:20 am

I'd have to see an example, but i would assume thats from too much blue channel. I haven't really had that issu but if you have a specific example post it, maybe the hive mind can come up with something. :)
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Chad Capeland

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostTue Jan 23, 2018 12:30 pm

Kim Janson wrote:well, removing the Bauer filter would make it a proper BW camera and simple SW change (SW understandign the pixels are not RGB but all BW) would do the rest.


DNG is already monochrome, so there wouldn't even be a software change.
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Lee Gauthier

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostTue Jan 23, 2018 4:11 pm

CaptainHook wrote:Change the node to LAB, uncheck L* (channel 1) and set pivot to 0.5, then contrast to 0.0. I don't think this will match Photoshop LAB though.


That's about how I do it, but have done some hacks in earlier versions to make it work.

As a back burner project, I want to make a set of B&W LUTs that give slightly better results. Things like emulating shooting B&W with a red filter so clouds pop ala John Ford in Monument Valley.

Image
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Lee Gauthier

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostTue Jan 23, 2018 4:24 pm

Chad Capeland wrote:
Kim Janson wrote:well, removing the Bayer filter would make it a proper BW camera and simple SW change (SW understandign the pixels are not RGB but all BW) would do the rest.


DNG is already monochrome, so there wouldn't even be a software change.


The DNG wouldn't change, but the way it was interpreted would need to. Standard DNG is put through deBayering, which creates 2/3 of the image from mathematical guesswork (interpolation). Using the sensor without a Bayer filter would mean the DNG would need to be interpreted without any interpolation. That's why a single sensor capturing in B&W is so much clearer and sharper than in color - every pixel is actual recorded data, with no interpolated pixels.
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Chad Capeland

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostWed Jan 24, 2018 12:28 am

Lee Gauthier wrote:
Chad Capeland wrote:
Kim Janson wrote:well, removing the Bayer filter would make it a proper BW camera and simple SW change (SW understandign the pixels are not RGB but all BW) would do the rest.


DNG is already monochrome, so there wouldn't even be a software change.


The DNG wouldn't change, but the way it was interpreted would need to. Standard DNG is put through deBayering, which creates 2/3 of the image from mathematical guesswork (interpolation). Using the sensor without a Bayer filter would mean the DNG would need to be interpreted without any interpolation. That's why a single sensor capturing in B&W is so much clearer and sharper than in color - every pixel is actual recorded data, with no interpolated pixels.


Depends on what you put in the tags. If you specify single channel linear raw, Lightroom will at least open it as monochrome and not do any filtering. I don't know what Resolve will do, but it if has a problem it would be a simple fix.
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Re: Monochrome camera

PostWed Jan 24, 2018 5:24 pm

Chad Capeland wrote:Depends on what you put in the tags. If you specify single channel linear raw, Lightroom will at least open it as monochrome and not do any filtering. I don't know what Resolve will do, but it if has a problem it would be a simple fix.


Not necessarily, because removing the color filters would change the sensor's sensitivity quite a bit. They eat up a lot of light, so BMD would have to recalibrate the imaging pipeline for that, at the very least.
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Luca Di Gioacchino

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostThu Jan 25, 2018 2:53 pm

Here's an informative article on how monochrome sensors work, at least Red's.: http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/color- ... ra-sensors
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Valery Axenov

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostMon Mar 26, 2018 10:59 am

Great deal at the moment (let say) to bmpcc software is to update only screen mode to - film/video/bw(monochrome). This should be good option for b/w documentary etc.

If you plan to have footage in post production as b/w. It is really to be a great option to work with monochrome image on the screen for better reading of monochrome light/shadows balance in your composition etc (the same as in b/w film photography). You should study not to see colors (works only with graphics inside of your image).
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Denny Smith

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostMon Mar 26, 2018 5:17 pm

You can turn off the saturation on the Video Assist,a no get a monochrome image, I do this all the time, I prefer looking at monochrome image in my viewfinder/Camera Monitor, exposure is easier to judge, so is the focus, whith out the distraction of color images.
Last edited by Denny Smith on Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monochrome camera

PostTue Mar 27, 2018 7:14 pm

I did for va some lut for bn conversion to separate from my taste different color on different grey shade, like in past when you shoot with color filter. You can do Easely loading a picture of your taste (better a Gretag xrite table) and build your bn lut.


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Valery Axenov

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostWed Mar 28, 2018 8:35 am

Denny Smith wrote:Yiu can turn off the saturation on the Video Assist,a no get a monochrome image, I do this all the time, I prefer looking at monochrome image in my viewfinder/Camera Monitor, exposure is easier to judge, so is the focus, whith out the distraction of color images.


I think only that it's better to have direct on/off b/w film screen option for bmpcc than to use possibility to change directly the saturation. It has a little bit different idea (calibration monitor) (and to be too slow option for evaluation of any image).
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Denny Smith

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostWed Mar 28, 2018 4:07 pm

I agree Valery, I was just pointing out a currently available option. aAlso a nice B&W Lut that would work with the Video Assist and/or SmallHD 500 series monitors would give you a B&W Monitor capability, especially if the Lut was based in the Monochrome edit settings...
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Chad Capeland

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Re: Monochrome camera

PostFri Apr 06, 2018 12:24 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Chad Capeland wrote:Depends on what you put in the tags. If you specify single channel linear raw, Lightroom will at least open it as monochrome and not do any filtering. I don't know what Resolve will do, but it if has a problem it would be a simple fix.


Not necessarily, because removing the color filters would change the sensor's sensitivity quite a bit. They eat up a lot of light, so BMD would have to recalibrate the imaging pipeline for that, at the very least.


Not really. All that means is your exposure would change. The imaging pipeline already accounts for that.
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