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Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:54 pm
by Luca Di Gioacchino
I know this is a long shot but any chance we could see BMD manufacture a monochrome camera?

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:49 pm
by Xtreemtec
RED does not even sell a lot of them..... ;) BMD can only develop something that will sell in BIG numbers otherwise the development costs are way too high..

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:56 pm
by Luca Di Gioacchino
One can wish :)

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:57 pm
by rick.lang
Never say never, but I think it would be unlikely. There are monochrome options available on some other digital cinema cameras, but they come at quite a premium in terms of cost given the relatively small market interested in the option of a true monochrome sensor assembly.

At this point, we can just fake it visually in post with desaturated images. The post option may not be trivial though because you need to choose how you want the various colours to reproduce in shades of grey. What will green look like versus red? What will yellow look like versus blue?


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Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:02 pm
by Luca Di Gioacchino
I know it's highly unlikely but I thought I'd put the idea out there nonetheless; the universe works in mysterious ways.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:17 pm
by Denny Smith
Leica makes a Monochrome Camera, which costs almost twice its color cousin.
The advantage is higher resolution from a given sensor, as all the pixels are used for the mono image. You also get smoother transition and more shades of gray. I believe the Bolex D and the AF100 both shot monochrome mode, but not sure how they handled the image as a desaturated color or went monochrom on all or most of the pixels. However, the Bayer filter is still present on both cameras.
Cheers

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:20 pm
by Luca Di Gioacchino
I'd love to see one. Does anyone else feel the same?

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:36 pm
by John Brawley
Luca Di Gioacchino wrote:I'd love to see one. Does anyone else feel the same?


I do.

It was something I was hoping would be available for the Big URSA.

And yes the advantage is mostly that the ISO sensitivity is much higher because you are removing the Bayer filter in front of the sensor that takes away a few stops of light to work.

It's so niche I don't think it will be something that BMD do. As a smaller company they have to be focussed on doing products that sell in higher volume.

JB

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:50 pm
by Luca Di Gioacchino
I agree that it's niche, but there's always room for B&W films, even today. Some of the best films I've seen recently were in b&W, such as "The Eyes of My Mother".

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:39 pm
by Kim Janson
Basically it would require just removing (not implementing Bauer filter in the first place) and and SW that understands that it ti BW video.

There is instructions how to remove the Bauer filter, but looks really risky.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:45 pm
by Luca Di Gioacchino
I am not talking about a hack but a proper, dedicated Monochrome camera, like Red's or Arri's. LInk to sample footage below:

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:07 pm
by Kim Janson
well, removing the Bauer filter would make it a proper BW camera and simple SW change (SW understandign the pixels are not RGB but all BW) would do the rest. I am only saying sould not be too difficult for BMD to provide such version of their camera if there is demand, more than few.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:46 pm
by Luca Di Gioacchino
Well, we're got two for. If anyone else is interested in seeing a BMD Monochrome camera, please let your voices be heard. BMD will listen.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:54 pm
by Denny Smith
I would live to see a Monochrom BM Camera, perhaps a Micro Monochrome :?:
Cheers

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:13 am
by Luca Di Gioacchino
I second a Monochrome Micro Camera. I own the micro and love it.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:52 am
by Wayne Steven
I was a interested in a monochrome camera, but now we need something better (higher lattitude and resolution than the pocket etc).

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:57 am
by Kim Janson
Getting rid of the Bayer filter gives all pixels BW. there should not be any moire and more light will get to the pixels. The Micro camera as true BW camera should be pretty good.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:41 pm
by Lee Gauthier
FWIW, converting to B&W using desat isn't the best option. It doesn't create the same image as a B&W sensor. There are many recipes for creating B&W from color, but you can get very good results easily by converting to LAB space and using the Luma component for B&W. If you want more of a Tri-X Pan look, you can add a knee & shoulder curve.

Image

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:35 pm
by Jamie LeJeune
Lee Gauthier wrote:FWIW, converting to B&W using desat isn't the best option. It doesn't create the same image as a B&W sensor. There are many recipes for creating B&W from color, but you can get very good results easily by converting to LAB space and using the Luma component for B&W. If you want more of a Tri-X Pan look, you can add a knee & shoulder curve.

Image

Very cool. Please forgive my ignorance here, but what's the method to accomplish that in Resolve? You can set the color space of a node to LAB, and you can turn off individual channels, but that only means they aren't affected by the adjustments made to the node. I can't figure out how is it possible to actually cleave off the AB channels from the signal so you're left with just the L channel.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:41 pm
by Denny Smith
Yes, me too, how did you do this. Any chance for a step-by-step demo?
Cheers

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:27 pm
by Luca Di Gioacchino
I use this method of converting a node's color space to LAB to denoise or shrapen only the image's luma channel.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:40 am
by CaptainHook
Jamie LeJeune wrote:what's the method to accomplish that in Resolve? You can set the color space of a node to LAB, and you can turn off individual channels, but that only means they aren't affected by the adjustments made to the node. I can't figure out how is it possible to actually cleave off the AB channels from the signal so you're left with just the L channel.

Change the node to LAB, uncheck L* (channel 1) and set pivot to 0.5, then contrast to 0.0. I don't think this will match Photoshop LAB though.

Personally I like to use the RGB mixer with monochrome checked and blend the channels to create my own B&W conversion (as one method at least).

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:24 am
by Jamie LeJeune
Thanks Hook! I forgot to consider the contrast control as a method there.

CaptainHook wrote:Personally I like to use the RGB mixer with monochrome checked and blend the channels to create my own B&W conversion (as one method at least).


I’ve played around with that method, but found it was pretty easy to end up adding/revealing noise. How did you deal with the noise? It’s also entirely possible I was doing something wrong and the noise was user error.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:20 am
by CaptainHook
I'd have to see an example, but i would assume thats from too much blue channel. I haven't really had that issu but if you have a specific example post it, maybe the hive mind can come up with something. :)

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:30 pm
by Chad Capeland
Kim Janson wrote:well, removing the Bauer filter would make it a proper BW camera and simple SW change (SW understandign the pixels are not RGB but all BW) would do the rest.


DNG is already monochrome, so there wouldn't even be a software change.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:11 pm
by Lee Gauthier
CaptainHook wrote:Change the node to LAB, uncheck L* (channel 1) and set pivot to 0.5, then contrast to 0.0. I don't think this will match Photoshop LAB though.


That's about how I do it, but have done some hacks in earlier versions to make it work.

As a back burner project, I want to make a set of B&W LUTs that give slightly better results. Things like emulating shooting B&W with a red filter so clouds pop ala John Ford in Monument Valley.

Image

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:24 pm
by Lee Gauthier
Chad Capeland wrote:
Kim Janson wrote:well, removing the Bayer filter would make it a proper BW camera and simple SW change (SW understandign the pixels are not RGB but all BW) would do the rest.


DNG is already monochrome, so there wouldn't even be a software change.


The DNG wouldn't change, but the way it was interpreted would need to. Standard DNG is put through deBayering, which creates 2/3 of the image from mathematical guesswork (interpolation). Using the sensor without a Bayer filter would mean the DNG would need to be interpreted without any interpolation. That's why a single sensor capturing in B&W is so much clearer and sharper than in color - every pixel is actual recorded data, with no interpolated pixels.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:28 am
by Chad Capeland
Lee Gauthier wrote:
Chad Capeland wrote:
Kim Janson wrote:well, removing the Bayer filter would make it a proper BW camera and simple SW change (SW understandign the pixels are not RGB but all BW) would do the rest.


DNG is already monochrome, so there wouldn't even be a software change.


The DNG wouldn't change, but the way it was interpreted would need to. Standard DNG is put through deBayering, which creates 2/3 of the image from mathematical guesswork (interpolation). Using the sensor without a Bayer filter would mean the DNG would need to be interpreted without any interpolation. That's why a single sensor capturing in B&W is so much clearer and sharper than in color - every pixel is actual recorded data, with no interpolated pixels.


Depends on what you put in the tags. If you specify single channel linear raw, Lightroom will at least open it as monochrome and not do any filtering. I don't know what Resolve will do, but it if has a problem it would be a simple fix.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:24 pm
by Rakesh Malik
Chad Capeland wrote:Depends on what you put in the tags. If you specify single channel linear raw, Lightroom will at least open it as monochrome and not do any filtering. I don't know what Resolve will do, but it if has a problem it would be a simple fix.


Not necessarily, because removing the color filters would change the sensor's sensitivity quite a bit. They eat up a lot of light, so BMD would have to recalibrate the imaging pipeline for that, at the very least.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:53 pm
by Luca Di Gioacchino
Here's an informative article on how monochrome sensors work, at least Red's.: http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/color- ... ra-sensors

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:59 am
by Valery Axenov
Great deal at the moment (let say) to bmpcc software is to update only screen mode to - film/video/bw(monochrome). This should be good option for b/w documentary etc.

If you plan to have footage in post production as b/w. It is really to be a great option to work with monochrome image on the screen for better reading of monochrome light/shadows balance in your composition etc (the same as in b/w film photography). You should study not to see colors (works only with graphics inside of your image).

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:17 pm
by Denny Smith
You can turn off the saturation on the Video Assist,a no get a monochrome image, I do this all the time, I prefer looking at monochrome image in my viewfinder/Camera Monitor, exposure is easier to judge, so is the focus, whith out the distraction of color images.

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:14 pm
by carlomacchiavello
I did for va some lut for bn conversion to separate from my taste different color on different grey shade, like in past when you shoot with color filter. You can do Easely loading a picture of your taste (better a Gretag xrite table) and build your bn lut.


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Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:35 am
by Valery Axenov
Denny Smith wrote:Yiu can turn off the saturation on the Video Assist,a no get a monochrome image, I do this all the time, I prefer looking at monochrome image in my viewfinder/Camera Monitor, exposure is easier to judge, so is the focus, whith out the distraction of color images.


I think only that it's better to have direct on/off b/w film screen option for bmpcc than to use possibility to change directly the saturation. It has a little bit different idea (calibration monitor) (and to be too slow option for evaluation of any image).

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:07 pm
by Denny Smith
I agree Valery, I was just pointing out a currently available option. aAlso a nice B&W Lut that would work with the Video Assist and/or SmallHD 500 series monitors would give you a B&W Monitor capability, especially if the Lut was based in the Monochrome edit settings...
Cheers

Re: Monochrome camera

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:24 am
by Chad Capeland
Rakesh Malik wrote:
Chad Capeland wrote:Depends on what you put in the tags. If you specify single channel linear raw, Lightroom will at least open it as monochrome and not do any filtering. I don't know what Resolve will do, but it if has a problem it would be a simple fix.


Not necessarily, because removing the color filters would change the sensor's sensitivity quite a bit. They eat up a lot of light, so BMD would have to recalibrate the imaging pipeline for that, at the very least.


Not really. All that means is your exposure would change. The imaging pipeline already accounts for that.