BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

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javierdpvelez

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BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostTue Apr 09, 2013 10:40 pm

Hello,

I, like many of you, am still waiting for my V1 BMCC MFT and was very upset upon finding out about the BMPC 4K. I too felt the camera I had yet to receive had all of a sudden become obsolete. This made me very upset. What am I going to do with all these lenses and gear I bought in preparation for the MFT? Am I going to lose money trying to sell it all back? But then I thought about it more and more and kept thinking about the word production vs. cinema. I've looked at the spec sheets over and over and find myself taken over by words like "4K", "global shutter" and "6G." But are these things really that important to an indie filmmaker/cinematographer like me? I still haven't made up my mind but the more I think about it the more I think I should just purchase the MFT BMCC. I wonder if there are other people with this dilemma and I wonder what you think. While these cameras are a lot cheaper than cameras made by other brands I want to make sure that if I'm spending $3-$4,000, it's for the purchase of the best possible camera.

Thank you,

Javier
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Sean

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostTue Apr 09, 2013 11:40 pm

javierdpvelez wrote:Hello,

I, like many of you, am still waiting for my V1 BMCC MFT and was very upset upon finding out about the BMPC 4K. I too felt the camera I had yet to receive had all of a sudden become obsolete. This made me very upset. What am I going to do with all these lenses and gear I bought in preparation for the MFT? Am I going to lose money trying to sell it all back? But then I thought about it more and more and kept thinking about the word production vs. cinema. I've looked at the spec sheets over and over and find myself taken over by words like "4K", "global shutter" and "6G." But are these things really that important to an indie filmmaker/cinematographer like me? I still haven't made up my mind but the more I think about it the more I think I should just purchase the MFT BMCC. I wonder if there are other people with this dilemma and I wonder what you think. While these cameras are a lot cheaper than cameras made by other brands I want to make sure that if I'm spending $3-$4,000, it's for the purchase of the best possible camera.

Thank you,

Javier
Same boat.
Is it worth it to return my current camera that I've been waiting for the past 9 months for (and receive Friday)?
I can't afford to have both as I'm simply a hobbiest, so I don't want to have buyers remorse later.
I'm not losing money over the wait, just patience.
I'll gain the resolution, the global shutter and a a larger sensor... but I'll lose the DR, the sharpness, and color science that I love.

I'm really curious to hear which of the trio (BMCC, BM4K, BMPC) John Brawley/Phillip Bloom/Marco Solorio would choose.
Sean Scannell
Ordered EF mount from B&H on 08/19/12. Received on 04/12/13.
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javierdpvelez

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 12:24 am

So I actually just got off the phone with my friend at NAB who I had ask a ton of questions over at the blackmagic booth. Here's some information for those that need help.

1.BMPC sensor sensitiy? Rep said 400ASA.
2. DR? Rep said 12 stops. (although EOSHD says it's probably the same as the Leica M sensor which is closer to 11 stops and change). My friend mentioned that the rep made it very clear that there will be a noticeable difference in the look as far as sensitivity and dynamic range (similar thing that Browley said in his blog where he didn't sound so confident).
3. Why production camera? Rep mentioned that the production is just that- an answer to productions with a movement more towards TV and Broadcast as opposed to the BMCC. Thus the 4K, 6G SGI, and Global shutter.
4. Is the BMCC tailored more for cinema than the BMPC? Rep says yes.
5. How good is the global shutter? I had my friend shake both cameras to test the difference and my friend said the BMPC has a noticeable difference (meaning much better-as expected) but that the the rolling shutter in the BMCC is not horrible. I've used the EF BMCC in the past and it's ok as far as rolling shutter.
6.What does "visually" lossless mean? Not an extremely noticeable difference, still a DNG, but with a compression of about 1.5:1-2:1 (which if I remember correctly it's what Brawley said).
7. 4:3 mode on any of the cameras? Rep says nope, up to now just 16:9.
8. What is the timeline roll for the MFT BMCC? Rep says things are moving along and should be catching up to backlog soon (did not specify if backlog means EF or MFT).
9. Any new features in the next firmware update? Rep said audio meters and then didn't really get specific or provide a timeline.

Currently I own multiple MFT glass- alot of them f0.95. That coupled with 800ASA sensitivity and 13 stops of dynamic range and 2.5k raw, I think is more than enough. Not to mention that I can use pretty much any other glass on it. It's funny that I answered my own question but I was never expecting to find out so much information from my friend at NAB. He (who is a filmmaker as well) mentioned that he would also get a MFT BMCC over the EF BMPC. I hope this information helps :)
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Joel Graham

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 12:29 am

Personally,

The MFT + metabones speed booster brings it close to a super 35.

13 Stops of DR is incredible.

2.5k uncompressed DNG is still excellent.


You miss out on 4k and global shutter which would be really nice. Of course, I purchased a BMCC based upon countless hours researching cameras at various price ranges. I was sold based upon the power of raw and the wonderful color science. There still isn't enough evidence out there of what the new Production cam can really do just yet. You're betting on something that could be just as good as the BMCC, but who really knows until there is some actual testing of the new sensor.

Honestly, it would be a clearer choice if the new Production cam had a mount other than EF.

Another thing to keep in mind, it seems that Compressed Raw capabilities would come later down the road via a firmware update which could be seen as a disadvantage of waiting around to get a RAW option. Unfortunately given the lack of information / speed in which firmware updates have been released for a camera that has been out for awhile now, I'm not left holding my breath.

I'm keeping my MFT order and my EF cam. After more concrete testing, maybe I could make a more informed decision. After all, the camera is just the tool and the BMCC is just as incredible as it ever was.
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javierdpvelez

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 12:32 am

YEAH! I didn't even mention the SpeedBooster! Very good point!


Joel Graham wrote:Personally,

The MFT + metabones speed booster brings it close to a super 35.

13 Stops of DR is incredible.

2.5k uncompressed DNG is still excellent.


You miss out on 4k and global shutter which would be really nice. Of course, I purchased a BMCC based upon countless hours researching cameras at various price ranges. I was sold based upon the power of raw and the wonderful color science. There still isn't enough evidence out there of what the new Production cam can really do just yet. You're betting on something that could be just as good as the BMCC, but who really knows until there is some actual testing of the new sensor.

Honestly, it would be a clearer choice if the new Production cam had a mount other than EF.

Another thing to keep in mind, it seems that Compressed Raw capabilities would come later down the road via a firmware update which could be seen as a disadvantage of waiting around to get a RAW option. Unfortunately given the lack of information / speed in which firmware updates have been released for a camera that has been out for awhile now, I'm not left holding my breath.

I'm keeping my MFT order and my EF cam. After more concrete testing, maybe I could make a more informed decision. After all, the camera is just the tool and the BMCC is just as incredible as it ever was.
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rick.lang

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostFri Apr 12, 2013 7:05 pm

javierdpvelez wrote:YEAH! I didn't even mention the SpeedBooster! Very good point!


Yes, that's right. To illustrate, take a 35mm EF lens with an aperture of at least f/1.2 ( I think that was their limit) and mount it on the BMCC EF and with the approximately 2.3x crop factor, it gives you the field of view of about an 80mm lens full-frame. Mount the same lens on the BMPC4K and with the 1.7x crop factor, you have a FOV of about a 60mm lens. Now put the lens on the Metabones Speed Booster on the BMCC MFT and that previous 80mm FOV becomes a 57mm lens due to the 0.71x multiplier of the Metabones focal length reducer. The BMCC MFT may even then have a slightly larger FOV than the BMPC4K and the benefit of an added stop!

Rick Lang
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ungovernedreason

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostFri Apr 12, 2013 7:26 pm

I orderd both the ef and mft model dec 2012 and currently am still waiting for the mft...
For a production company I think it would make sense to sell my ef once the 4k hits the shelfs...global shutter is the only factor for this. However if the 4 k model does not ship until after nsb 2014...then I can sell both for whatever insane beast they are going to come out with.
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Tal Peled

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostFri Apr 12, 2013 9:23 pm

i am staying with my Mft order , i prefer DR and uncompressed Raw over 4k and compressed , global shutter would be nice , but you cant have it all

But did anyone get a hint on when it is shipping ???? date ???
not just blabbering we need to finish ef backorders before starting with the mft
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Hampus Lager

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostFri Apr 12, 2013 9:52 pm

I'm waiting for one of each, the MFT is preordered and PocketCam and ProductionCam I was put on a list.

Sensor size is not the problem, like people said: BMCC + Speedbooster gives a slightly wider FOV than the ProductionCam and the benefit of one more stop. I got vintage Nikons f/2.0, that's gonna be fun. I can still mount those lenses on the new camera, but I'm waiting to see some side by side by Brawley or someone else to see how much difference there really is, 12 stops is still great.

4K... Personally, I don't need it yet. And no customers is asking for it. And therefor I'm not invested to handle it. Great "future proofing" since it can shoot 1080p as well, but I would have loved if it had some form of HFR at lower res. I would even buy it if it was done by sensor cropping. And the BMCC look great in 4K using proper upscaling, it looks better than RED at 4K!

So far, so good... And the MFT BMCC sound like it's a lot better from this point of view.

But... Global shutter... Dear Lord in heaven how I've missed it! I really had a progression of changing my style from handheld to dollies and SteadiCam and still using plugins for reducing the jello, but even with a static image with only little moment from the actors it looks so much better than rolling shutter.

Is that alone worth another 1000 bucks? To me, yes. But let's see some footage first, they said the got the Black Magic Color down already, so I'm optimistic. :)
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John Bartman

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostFri Apr 12, 2013 10:05 pm

2.4k MFT for me for all the above reasons!
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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostSat Apr 13, 2013 4:54 am

Joel Graham wrote:Personally,

The MFT + metabones speed booster brings it close to a super 35.

13 Stops of DR is incredible.

2.5k uncompressed DNG is still excellent.


You miss out on 4k and global shutter which would be really nice. Of course, I purchased a BMCC based upon countless hours researching cameras at various price ranges. I was sold based upon the power of raw and the wonderful color science. There still isn't enough evidence out there of what the new Production cam can really do just yet. You're betting on something that could be just as good as the BMCC, but who really knows until there is some actual testing of the new sensor.

Honestly, it would be a clearer choice if the new Production cam had a mount other than EF.

Another thing to keep in mind, it seems that Compressed Raw capabilities would come later down the road via a firmware update which could be seen as a disadvantage of waiting around to get a RAW option. Unfortunately given the lack of information / speed in which firmware updates have been released for a camera that has been out for awhile now, I'm not left holding my breath.

I'm keeping my MFT order and my EF cam. After more concrete testing, maybe I could make a more informed decision. After all, the camera is just the tool and the BMCC is just as incredible as it ever was.


I'm no 2 with CVP on my BMC MFT. I'm considering cancelling that. If it had global shutter I would have kept it and buy a Metabones Speed Booster for S35 look. Jello and motion jitter free is the deal breaker.
Yes the BMPC 4k cost $1000 more but for that you get 4k, S35 and Global Shutter. I could also potentially save more money by not having to purchase more expensive stabalizing rigs and save myself time and effort just to tame the effect of rolling shutter.
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John Bartman

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostSat Apr 13, 2013 3:44 pm

4K is "softer" has less dynamic range and will take more space.
The sensor is not the same as the one we have come to know.
lets see some comparisons first!
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Pete Proniewicz-Brooks

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostSat Apr 13, 2013 3:52 pm

Taikonaut wrote:
Joel Graham wrote:Personally,

The MFT + metabones speed booster brings it close to a super 35.

13 Stops of DR is incredible.

2.5k uncompressed DNG is still excellent.


You miss out on 4k and global shutter which would be really nice. Of course, I purchased a BMCC based upon countless hours researching cameras at various price ranges. I was sold based upon the power of raw and the wonderful color science. There still isn't enough evidence out there of what the new Production cam can really do just yet. You're betting on something that could be just as good as the BMCC, but who really knows until there is some actual testing of the new sensor.

Honestly, it would be a clearer choice if the new Production cam had a mount other than EF.

Another thing to keep in mind, it seems that Compressed Raw capabilities would come later down the road via a firmware update which could be seen as a disadvantage of waiting around to get a RAW option. Unfortunately given the lack of information / speed in which firmware updates have been released for a camera that has been out for awhile now, I'm not left holding my breath.

I'm keeping my MFT order and my EF cam. After more concrete testing, maybe I could make a more informed decision. After all, the camera is just the tool and the BMCC is just as incredible as it ever was.


I'm no 2 with CVP on my BMC MFT. I'm considering cancelling that. If it had global shutter I would have kept it and buy a Metabones Speed Booster for S35 look. Jello and motion jitter free is the deal breaker.
Yes the BMPC 4k cost $1000 more but for that you get 4k, S35 and Global Shutter. I could also potentially save more money by not having to purchase more expensive stabilizing rigs and save myself time and effort just to tame the effect of rolling shutter.


I'd wait till there's some footage out there just to make sure.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostSat Apr 13, 2013 5:33 pm

By the time the BMPC-4K is shipping, the BMCC-MFT & other BMD cameras will likely be readily available (new or used) in most parts of the world.

No guarantees, but it could happen.
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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostSun Apr 14, 2013 3:09 am

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:By the time the BMPC-4K is shipping, the BMCC-MFT & other BMD cameras will likely be readily available (new or used) in most parts of the world.

No guarantees, but it could happen.


I would think the BMCC MFT and BMPC4K and BMPCC will all be shipping by August. Colour me optimistic.

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John Bartman

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostSun Apr 14, 2013 5:14 pm

BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

For the MFT:
the original and incredible sharp scientific sensor
smaller files (pro rez & Grant promised compressed raw for BMCC too!)
MFT mount = attach almost whatever glass you want
13 steps of DR

For the 4k:
4k
Global shutter
Less crop

Against the MFT:
No global shutter
?

Against the 4k:
Softer image
Less dynamic range
larger work flow
Worse low light(?)
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostMon Apr 15, 2013 2:24 am

bartman wrote:BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K ...
Against the 4k:
Softer image
Less dynamic range
larger work flow
Worse low light(?)


Until we're closer to the BMPC-4K camera being final or near-final form the jury may still be out on the items I've highlighted above.

For example, BMPC-4K 4K RAW footage scaled to 1920 x 1080 may look sharper than BMCC 2.5K RAW footage scaled to 1920 x 1080. We don't know yet.

The tighter noise grain in BMPC-4K 4K footage scaled to 1920 x 1080 may make it appear to be less noisy than one might otherwise expect. We won't know for sure until we see some "final" BMPC-4K footage.

Compressed 4K RAW footage might be smaller than uncompressed 2.5K RAW footage. BMD hasn't announced the exact compression ratio for their compressed 4K RAW yet.

And later, the eventual availability of compressed RAW for the BMCC will be a great thing for that camera; hopefully it happens soon.

So comparisons will be fluid for a while yet.
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rick.lang

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostMon Apr 15, 2013 3:00 am

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:Compressed 4K RAW footage might be smaller than uncompressed 2.5K RAW footage. BMD hasn't announced the exact compression ratio for their compressed 4K RAW yet.

And later, the eventual availability of compressed RAW for the BMCC will be a great thing for that camera; hopefully it happens soon.


All good points. The compressed 4K will not likely be smaller than the uncompressed 2.5K because BMD will want to use the minimum compression that recommended SSDs will handle. There could even be a new list of recommended SSDs for the BMPC4K. A compression of about 2.5x would give the same data rates. But if there are consumer SSDs that could handle a smaller compression, then it will be smaller. Only makes sense they want to maximize the quality of the images.

The uncompressed raw data would be about 375MB/s. A 1.5x compression would be under 250MB/s. That may be able to be handled by some of the SSDs such as the Sandisk Extreme 480GB and 240GB SSDs. A 1.5x compression must be tempting to them because that could be mathematically lossless. Since they have already stated the BMPC4K will be lossy, that makes me think they'll go for 2.5x compression so people can use the same SSDs in the BMCC and the BMPC4K. If I knew 1.5x would work reliably in the BMPC4K, even if only on a few SSDs today, I'd shoot for that. Would you?

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Clark Fable

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostMon Apr 15, 2013 4:21 am

bartman wrote:The sensor is not the same as the one we have come to know.
lets see some comparisons first!


Yah, i'm kinda scratching my head as to why everyone is assuming that the full frame sensor on the BMPC will provide the same beautiful look of the BMCC.
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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostMon Apr 15, 2013 4:39 am

Clark Fable wrote:
bartman wrote:The sensor is not the same as the one we have come to know.
lets see some comparisons first!


Yah, i'm kinda scratching my head as to why everyone is assuming that the full frame sensor on the BMPC will provide the same beautiful look of the BMCC.


Because this is BMD Goal, In post 4K to 2K output will shine.
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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostMon Apr 15, 2013 7:11 am

Clark Fable wrote:
bartman wrote:The sensor is not the same as the one we have come to know.
lets see some comparisons first!


Yah, i'm kinda scratching my head as to why everyone is assuming that the full frame sensor on the BMPC will provide the same beautiful look of the BMCC.


Because I looked at them side by side (though floor demo models at NAB) and the looked very similar
Dmitry Kitsov
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Pete Proniewicz-Brooks

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostMon Apr 15, 2013 9:36 am

Darryl Gregory wrote:
Clark Fable wrote:
bartman wrote:The sensor is not the same as the one we have come to know.
lets see some comparisons first!


Yah, i'm kinda scratching my head as to why everyone is assuming that the full frame sensor on the BMPC will provide the same beautiful look of the BMCC.


Because this is BMD Goal, In post 4K to 2K output will shine.


It will likely provide a beautiful image, but one with the same qualities as the BMCC that is less certain. The BMPC uses a different sensor from a different manufacturer as far as I have gathered, that means it is unlikely to be a higher resolution version of the BMCCs picture. Hell even being from the same manufacturer isn't enough to guarantee that.
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John Bartman

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Re: BMCC MFT vs. BMPC 4K (thoughts and suggestions)

PostMon Apr 15, 2013 1:09 pm

Yes, this is the 1000 dollar question for many of us:

"how does the 4k sensor compare to the BMCC?"

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