So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

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Jules Bushell

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So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 6:31 am

Hi,
I'm wondering what the extra costs might be when using a BMC4K (when it's available of course) as opposed to the original BMCC 2.5K? Off the top of my head (ehh, 'we have a problem Houston')...

Do we have to go for better quality glass and which ones recommended?
Is 4K monitoring feasible/necessary?
How much more storage is needed now? Visually lossless compression, means what exactly?
6G-SDI hardware, what?
What's the minimum spec for a computer that can handle a 4K workflow? Are laptops no good any more?
etc. etc.

So how much extra pound/dollar amount to budget for, do you think?

Jules
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adamroberts

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 7:51 am

All depends on the format you shoot in.

Lenses - Most Canon L lenses should be fine with 4K and more other SLR lenses would be fine for most people. The resolution of 4K is still much lower than most high end DSLRs. The sensor is also closer to ASP-C so 35mm Full Frame lenses will have no vignetting and most ASP-C lenses should be fine too.

Monitoring - On camera / on set you would be fine with current EVF's / HD monitors. In post you happily could edit and grade at HD and if your final delivery is 4K then you are probably going to want to get the grade and finish done in a high end post house that can deal with 4K post.

Storage - Depends on the format you shoot in. When release the camera will only be recording in ProRes.ProRes data rate for 4K 30p is 884Mb/s or 398GB/h. So much lower that 2.5K RAW.

Workflow - Editing could be done on a laptop with proxy files but I think most laptops would be under powered for 4K finishing. Most people would be finishing in HD tho (how many people do you know with 4K TVs?). They would be shooting 4K so that can downscale to HD in post and get a better image or so they can crop into the 4K image.

My current BMCC workflow would be fine for the BMPC:
On set - 17" MacBook Pro Core i7, 16GB RAM - Used for Ultrascopes and DIT.
Studio - Core i7 3.5GHz, 32GB RAM, 2 x GTX 670 4GB, Storage on Thunderbolt RAID - Used for Edit and Grade.

Any 4K finishing I'd out source to a highend post house.
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Brightsphere1

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 8:39 am

If you were shooting in 4K and wanted to output to 2K for theater release could you do it with this Camera? I guess once its in post it can be output to 2K at that point.. Working at this level is totally new to me.. The movie I'm doing is going to have allot of special effects. (Not expensive 3D effects effects tho) and utilize allot of stock footage. Is it possible to shoot a good portion in 4K, then Bump to 2K and then put special effects in? and use HD stock footage? (Would they hold up on a large screen?) I'm doing something quite different, a musical documentary... Thanks for your imput..
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adamroberts

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 8:44 am

4K acquisition for 2K delivery is a good work flow.

You might find the HD stock you buy might let down your overall image quality tho. All depends on how you composite and edit it.
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Brightsphere1

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 9:11 am

Thank You Adam.. I'm so glad we have some real talent to call on in this forum... Peace to you...Norman
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Jules Bushell

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 7:01 pm

Thanks Adam for the detailed answer.

So there really isn't extra costs compared to 2.5K unless there is a need to finish in 4K? NOthing to worry about then.

Just have to wait and wait for the camera I guess.

Jules
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostThu Apr 11, 2013 9:49 am

adamroberts wrote:Any 4K finishing I'd out source to a highend post house.

I liked your post up to this point,
because Any 4K finishing I'd out source to a high end post house
will cost upwards of $10,000,
Not sure if you have ever had a "High End" post house CC or Render
your output, but most everyone here on the forums could not afford it.

And FYI $10,000 was the cost for a favor on 2K I got 4 years ago from a "High End" Post house.

Unless I'm missing something, out sourcing for 4K Deliverables is beyond 80% of BMD's average user base.
Sorry Adam not trying to be rude, But hey I'm not a Producer, I'm everything else in between 8-)
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rick.lang

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostThu Apr 11, 2013 1:56 pm

adamroberts wrote:4K acquisition for 2K delivery is a good work flow.


Sounds like a plan. But if you wanted to do post in UltraHD up to the point the final delivery was in 2K, then an additional expense might be a monitor that supported UltraHD like the 32" Sharp PN-K321 IGZO LCD announced at CES. Then to grade, there is that new 32" Flanders CM320 but it costs $5,495 with support for 3G/HD SDI 12bit input on a 10bit screen and 100% Rec.709.

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Steve Lee Jean

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostThu Apr 11, 2013 2:38 pm

I agree 100% with Darryl here. Going to a post house is not cost efficient for most productions.

If you're coming from DSLR shooting, moving straight to 4k is a bit of a jump. And by a bit, I guess I should say quite a big.

Now, it's doable if you're planning on editing via proxies and delivering in 2k, but you better have a system designed to handle the constraints of your time limits.

For now, if you're a DSLR shooter, going to 2.5k is still your best option.
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George Drake

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostThu Apr 11, 2013 4:06 pm

I built my latest PC with the BM cam in mind. I read a post that said the file from the newer 4K version isnt readable on PCs... is this true?
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostThu Apr 11, 2013 4:38 pm

FWIW, here is my take (based on limited experience):
http://herefortheweather.wordpress.com/ ... which-one/

Cheers.
Last edited by Peter J. DeCrescenzo on Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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AdrianSierkowski

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostThu Apr 11, 2013 4:50 pm

you can read 4K on most computers; you just can't display it or really edit it.
Normally you'd cut via proxies and then do an EDL to conform to 4K if you needed 4K, but it should be mentioned that most productions I've ever been associated with will only conform @2K for a proper color correction. Yes, this will cost you; and it's not worth it at all for an indie budget. The "1.9K" option of HD is a good on as by downrezing it you'll have much better looking footage than if you originated at 1080-- the downrezing hides a lot of imperfections.
And if you have a client who needs 4K, then you factor those costs in when you bid it out.

How much extra depends on soooo many factors-- sufficient to say-- it'll cost more and it's not something I'd want to try to do at home.
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Jules Bushell

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostFri Apr 12, 2013 2:19 pm

AdrianSierkowski wrote:you can read 4K on most computers; you just can't display it or really edit it.

Or maybe you can. You pick up 6GB Titan cards for reasonable prices which would work well with a GPU accelerated editing software.

Also, I'm probably missing out on some knowledge here, but why not shoot widescreen cinema standard? That is use wider lenses, crop the 4K to 2.4:1 aspect ratio (maybe this could also be done in camera with a firmware update?)

Storage cost be a lot less now as the footage would be cropped from 4K. Than edit with two/three monitor setup. You'll have a bevel down the image from where the monitors join, but you can get used to that pretty quickly.

Jules
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rick.lang

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostFri Apr 12, 2013 5:42 pm

Jules Bushell wrote:
AdrianSierkowski wrote:you can read 4K on most computers; you just can't display it or really edit it.

Or maybe you can. You pick up 6GB Titan cards for reasonable prices which would work well with a GPU accelerated editing software.

Also, I'm probably missing out on some knowledge here, but why not shoot widescreen cinema standard? That is use wider lenses, crop the 4K to 2.4:1...

Jules


Now with a 1.35x anamorphic on the BMPC4K, you'll have a 2.4:1 image (5184x2160) when unsqueezed and no lost data due to cropping in post. Then you can edit with proxies (1296x540), conform to your original files, and scale down to a smaller size for final distribution such as 2K. As long as camera manufacturers are going to offer 16:9 aspect ratios as their native capture mode, the mythical 1.35x anamorphic is the way to go. So who is going to offer that option?

Rick Lang
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostFri Apr 12, 2013 6:44 pm

drakester347 wrote:I built my latest PC with the BM cam in mind. I read a post that said the file from the newer 4K version isnt readable on PCs... is this true?



Of course it is readable.

There is a ton of misinformation out there.
http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/

Set your zebras to 100%, ETTR and you're golden - and NO, you can't use TB as output for an external monitor, and you can't download the footy via TB ether.
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adamroberts

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostSat Apr 13, 2013 7:27 am

Darryl Gregory wrote:
adamroberts wrote:Any 4K finishing I'd out source to a highend post house.

I liked your post up to this point,
because Any 4K finishing I'd out source to a high end post house
will cost upwards of $10,000,
Not sure if you have ever had a "High End" post house CC or Render
your output, but most everyone here on the forums could not afford it.

And FYI $10,000 was the cost for a favor on 2K I got 4 years ago from a "High End" Post house.

Unless I'm missing something, out sourcing for 4K Deliverables is beyond 80% of BMD's average user base.
Sorry Adam not trying to be rude, But hey I'm not a Producer, I'm everything else in between 8-)


Don't find you to be rude at all Darryl. :-)

I have had various commercial jobs finished at Soho Post houses. There is a reason they exist.

As you say they are probably beyond the budgets of 80% of those who will buy this camera but then 4K is overkill for them anyway as they will probably be delivering to to HD or 2K screens.

How many people do you know who have 4K displays to watch their content on? Most film festivals are screening at 2K and online (Vimeo and YouTube) is mostly HD.

If you are finishing in 4K for theatrical release you probably have some backing or budget and so would get it finished in a controlled environment that has the power, resources and QC to deliver.

Most people buying this camera don't even have a colour calibrated display to grade on. Making all that extra info in the files a waste.

:-)
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostSat Apr 13, 2013 8:57 am

adamroberts wrote:
Darryl Gregory wrote:
adamroberts wrote:Any 4K finishing I'd out source to a highend post house.

I liked your post up to this point,
because Any 4K finishing I'd out source to a high end post house
will cost upwards of $10,000,
Not sure if you have ever had a "High End" post house CC or Render
your output, but most everyone here on the forums could not afford it.

And FYI $10,000 was the cost for a favor on 2K I got 4 years ago from a "High End" Post house.

Unless I'm missing something, out sourcing for 4K Deliverables is beyond 80% of BMD's average user base.
Sorry Adam not trying to be rude, But hey I'm not a Producer, I'm everything else in between 8-)


Don't find you to be rude at all Darryl. :-)

I have had various commercial jobs finished at Soho Post houses. There is a reason they exist.

As you say they are probably beyond the budgets of 80% of those who will buy this camera but then 4K is overkill for them anyway as they will probably be delivering to to HD or 2K screens.

How many people do you know who have 4K displays to watch their content on? Most film festivals are screening at 2K and online (Vimeo and YouTube) is mostly HD.

If you are finishing in 4K for theatrical release you probably have some backing or budget and so would get it finished in a controlled environment that has the power, resources and QC to deliver.

Most people buying this camera don't even have a colour calibrated display to grade on. Making all that extra info in the files a waste.

:-)


Update, lol I'm blind! I could swear you called me RUDE! Sorry Adam, my post is updated!

Yes I'm not rude! I'm honest! Sorry Adam, I can't read very well after midnight lol :geek:

I have edited a full feature film shot on red,
the only reason I even mentioned costs is because I know What it costs even as a favor,
I know how much it costs for a Post house here in LA / Burbank, $10,000
was a one pass node in Resolve, So I know first hand.
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adamroberts

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostSat Apr 13, 2013 11:24 am

Darryl Gregory wrote:I have edited a full feature film shot on red,
the only reason I even mentioned costs is because I know What it costs even as a favor,
I know how much it costs for a Post house here in LA / Burbank, $10,000
was a one pass node in Resolve, So I know first hand.


And I totally agree. It's not cheap. But trying to do 4K post in your bedroom without a calibrated monitor and some serious hardware is looking for trouble.

The 4K footage downscales to 2K or HD will look amazing and you can manage that on the likes of an iMac (or similar PC) with a calibrated 17" broadcast monitor. That is affordable.

:-)
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rick.lang

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostSat Apr 13, 2013 4:07 pm

adamroberts wrote:But trying to do 4K post in your bedroom without a calibrated monitor and some serious hardware is looking for trouble.

The 4K footage downscales to 2K or HD will look amazing and you can manage that on the likes of an iMac (or similar PC) with a calibrated 17" broadcast monitor. That is affordable.


Adam, I have been considering a Flanders 17" and wonder if that is something you would recommend although if I recall correctly, it is a HD resolution monitor. Will that suffice for 2K deliverables?

I am familiar with Rec.709 and broadcast safe. Is there any similar guideline that is used for material that is intended for theatrical release in 2K? It seems films can have extreme variations in grading and all look interesting, but I don't know if there are waveforms etc that are designed to keep one's graded material within boundaries for theatrical viewing. Would simply conforming to the most recent academy colour space be all that is required?

Rick Lang
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adamroberts

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostSat Apr 13, 2013 4:43 pm

The CM171 is a great option because its 10bit and supports various colour spaces including REC.709 (HD broadcast) and DCI-P3 (Digital Cinema).

Another "entry level" option is the Sony PVM-1741. OLED 10bit display.

I think HD monitoring would be fine for 2K post. Some post houses are still using CRTs that are not HD for HD post. The most important reason for a celebrated monitor is knowing that what you are seeing is a accurate and repeatable.

Like most on here I'm still learning so not a source of "expert" advice on the colour critical work. There are a few on here better placed to advise.

:-)
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rick.lang

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostSun Apr 14, 2013 1:20 am

adamroberts wrote:The CM171 is a great option because its 10bit and supports various colour spaces including REC.709 (HD broadcast) and DCI-P3 (Digital Cinema).

Another "entry level" option is the Sony PVM-1741. OLED 10bit display.


Thanks Adam. I have done more research but a lot of the discussion is a few years old! Suggestions included watching the video through a Christie projector, but hopefully Resolve and a monitor that supports DCI-P3 will suffice. I'll need to figure out how to talk to the monitor (3G SDI based) using BMD devices and all this will likely wait until next year as I have enough to consider this year.

Edit: this monitor also supports BMD Film log to Rec.709 Video directly. Costs more than the BMCC but does everything except 3D (which is fine by me). It handles 2K but even if I was using the BMPC4K, I would obviously only be finishing in 2K and HD.

Rick Lang
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John Brawley

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Re: So how much extra cost for a 4K workflow?

PostSun Apr 14, 2013 5:44 am

rick.lang wrote: As long as camera manufacturers are going to offer 16:9 aspect ratios as their native capture mode, the mythical 1.35x anamorphic is the way to go. So who is going to offer that option?

Rick Lang
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At the moment it's only HAWK.
http://www.vantagefilm.com/file/pdf/equipment_39.pdf

And there's also maybe Angeniuex. They've just this NAB gotten into the ANAMORPHIC buisiness and I was pestering them at IBC to look at 1.3X. So far they're only doing 2X.

http://www.angenieux.com/zoom-objectifs ... s-by-a.htm

jb
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