Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

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Gregg Guzman

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Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostFri Mar 16, 2018 7:07 pm

I own the Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera and a Canon 1dx Mii and recently was chosen to shoot a short with a group of people as the DP - I'm very excited.

I'm tasked wtih deciding which camera to shoot with between the two. I'm torn between the two and if I had to pick I'd go with the Canon 1dx Mii because of the 4k ability, the larger sensor (for light) and I have yet to be in a situation where where I felt limited in grading by the Canon's codec.

I have a SmallHD monitor to use for either camera, but wondering if any of you have an opinion on what you'd choose if you were in my shoes. Also if there are any factors that you'd consider to pick the "right" camera for the job, I'd love to hear what those would be.

Edit: For clarification this is a short film based on a screenplace/script, not a documentary. Story is about a family getting over the death of their father.
Last edited by Gregg Guzman on Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jim Giberti

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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostFri Mar 16, 2018 7:18 pm

Gregg Guzman wrote:wondering if any of you have an opinion on what you'd choose if you were in my shoes. Also if there are any factors that you'd consider to pick the "right" camera for the job, I'd love to hear what those would be.


What's the job?
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Gregg Guzman

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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostFri Mar 16, 2018 7:30 pm

Jim Giberti wrote:
Gregg Guzman wrote:wondering if any of you have an opinion on what you'd choose if you were in my shoes. Also if there are any factors that you'd consider to pick the "right" camera for the job, I'd love to hear what those would be.


What's the job?


It's a short film - about a family getting over the death of the father. Should be heavy on story, little action. Scenes in outside and inside, so kind of all over the place.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostFri Mar 16, 2018 7:32 pm

While the Canon has a larger sensor, it is a 8-bit Camera, which is going to limit the amount of post production changes you can make to the image. The Micro Cinema camera, while it has a smaller sensor, it is a true 10-bit Camera (12-bit down processed) and has a larger dynamic range at 12-stops in ProRes, more in Raw.

So the question boils down to how the camera are going to be shot, the lenses needed or wanted for the shoot, and the lighting to be used. The job is more than just selecting a camera. I normally snooze what lenses I need, for the shooting situation and look desired, then choose the camera that works best with that lens selection and will give the needed files to meet the post production requirements.
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Gregg Guzman

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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostFri Mar 16, 2018 7:36 pm

Denny Smith wrote:While the Canon has a larger sensor, it is a 8-bit Camera, which is going to limit the amount of post production changes you can make to the image. The Micro Cinema camera, while it has a smaller sensor, it is a true 10-bit Camera (12-bit down processed) and has a larger dynamic range at 12-stops in ProRes, more in Raw.

So the question boils down to how the camera are going to be shot, the lenses needed or wanted for the shoot, and the lighting to be used. The job is more than just selecting a camera. I normally snooze what lenses I need, for the shooting situation and look desired, then choose the camera that works best with that lens selection and will give the needed files to meet the post production requirements.
Cheers


Thanks Denny! Great advice. I metabones speedbooster so both cameras use Canon lenses. I have lenses that fit both and give a similar focal length with the cropped sensor and with the full frame.

I guess for me it really comes down to how much post production grading I plan to do and consider any shots that may require as high as dynamic range as possible. There won't be any special effects so I don't need to consider that.

Thanks again!
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Jim Giberti

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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostSat Mar 17, 2018 9:54 pm

Here's perhaps the best reason I could give you to go with the Micro Cinema.

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Gregg Guzman

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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 12:40 am

Jim Giberti wrote:Here's perhaps the best reason I could give you to go with the Micro Cinema.



Very beautiful. The Micro Cinema is so powerful. And... I'm torn again.
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Dmytro Shijan

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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 2:38 am

Yep, BMMCC or Pocket Camera is way closer to Arri or real film. It gives freedom for grading, but it it is not one click solution. Needs IR filter or IR/OLPF filter if you shoot RAW, needs proper grading workflow to compress colors and dynamic range without clipping and understanding how to deal with it.
Canon 1dx Mark II like any other DSLR will give you more broadcast or tv-like or too fake film mimic look. Probably it will look sharper. Ask yourself do you need that super sharp still photography look for your film?

P.S. If you ever move to BMMCC you can look al my custom made stuff for it https://lavky.com/radioproektor/
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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 5:01 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Yep, BMMCC or Pocket Camera is way closer to Arri or real film. It gives freedom for grading, but it it is not one click solution. Needs IR filter or IR/OLPF filter if you shoot RAW, needs proper grading workflow to compress colors and dynamic range without clipping and understanding how to deal with it.
Canon 1dx Mark II like any other DSLR will give you more broadcast or tv-like or too fake film mimic look. Probably it will look sharper. Ask yourself do you need that super sharp still photography look for your film?

This is 100% right on.

If you have time to set the lighting to nail the look in camera AND the in camera look from the Canon is exactly the look that you want, then go with Canon.

If you don't want that Canon look or you won't have the time to light to nail the look in camera, go with the BMMCC.
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Gregg Guzman

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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 4:06 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Yep, BMMCC or Pocket Camera is way closer to Arri or real film. It gives freedom for grading, but it it is not one click solution. Needs IR filter or IR/OLPF filter if you shoot RAW, needs proper grading workflow to compress colors and dynamic range without clipping and understanding how to deal with it.
Canon 1dx Mark II like any other DSLR will give you more broadcast or tv-like or too fake film mimic look. Probably it will look sharper. Ask yourself do you need that super sharp still photography look for your film?

P.S. If you ever move to BMMCC you can look al my custom made stuff for it https://lavky.com/radioproektor/


Hey Denny. Question. If I don’t own an OLPF for the Micro Cinema would you suggest I shoot ProRes as opposed to raw to get the most out of the camera for grading? I understand ASA and WB will be locked in prores. I’d like to use the micro cinema but without the OLPF I’m not sure I can, unless Prores fixes issues introduced by raw. I will be shooting outside.
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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 4:49 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Yep, BMMCC or Pocket Camera is way closer to Arri or real film. It gives freedom for grading, but it it is not one click solution. Needs IR filter or IR/OLPF filter if you shoot RAW,


I'd be careful about being so absolute with these kinds of statements.

Many people, myself included have shot many hours of broadcast and cinema with a micro without an OLPF fitted, so clearly you CAN shoot without one. Most people don't have one and get great results.

It might better to explain the reasons why it's desirable to HAVE one rather than saying "needs" one. Which is why you get the response the OP has just posted above.

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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 5:28 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Yep, BMMCC or Pocket Camera is way closer to Arri or real film. It gives freedom for grading, but it it is not one click solution. Needs IR filter or IR/OLPF filter if you shoot RAW,

John Brawley wrote:I'd be careful about being so absolute with these kinds of statements.

Many people, myself included have shot many hours of broadcast and cinema with a micro without an OLPF fitted, so clearly you CAN shoot without one. Most people don't have one and get great results.

It might better to explain the reasons why it's desirable to HAVE one rather than saying "needs" one. Which is why you get the response the OP has just posted above.
JB

Perhaps what Dmitry meant is that it is IR filtration which is necessary for the BMMCC and Pocket, and I have definitely found that to be true. He wrote " IR filter or IR/OLPF filter" and I think that what he meant is that you can get an external IR filter or get one of the combined IR/OLPF internal filters that can be found. In either case, you've got IR cut.

I agree with you that OLPF is useful, but not necessary depending on what you're shooting and how you shoot.

Dmitry appeared to connect the need for filtration to a difference between ProRes and raw. However, I've never seen any difference between ProRes and raw when it comes to IR sensitivity on BMMCC and Pocket. Both cameras benefit from IR filtration regardless of whether the recording is ProRes or raw.
Last edited by Jamie LeJeune on Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 6:21 pm

Gregg, I normally shoot ProRes, and find the results very good. Raw offers a little more exposure latitude and grading options, but with a good ballpark exposure and watching the dynamic range of the scene, you should be able,to get very good results with ProRes, especially 4.4.4.
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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 6:47 pm

Gregg Guzman wrote:
Dmitry Shijan wrote:If I don’t own an OLPF for the Micro Cinema would you suggest I shoot ProRes as opposed to raw to get the most out of the camera for grading? I understand ASA and WB will be locked in prores. I’d like to use the micro cinema but without the OLPF I’m not sure I can, unless Prores fixes issues introduced by raw. I will be shooting outside.


Ok, quick step by step faq for BMMCC/BMPCC and other BM cameras with BAE Systems Fairchild sensors:
1. IR pollution problem - use IR filter (Hoya UV IR works well) 100% must have.
2. Moire/Aliasing problem - use OLPF filter (Mosaic OLPF or RawLite, both have built in IR filter) See this thread for details and tests http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?20918
3. Cross Hatching problem - can be fixed by shift X/Y position 0.5 in Resolve in post. See this thread for details
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51936&start=500#p323810
4. To deal with ProRes same as with RAW always shoot ProRes ISO800. This allow you use boosting Expose and than lowering Gain method n post. See this threads for details viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65149
http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?20965
5. To adjust WB in ProRes same as in RAW you can:
set a node to L*a*b
bypass chanel 1 (Luma)
use Ch2 (*a) to adjust tint using green offset or curves
use Ch3 (*b) to adjust temp using blue offset or curves
6. Grade in Log and wide color gamut and use Color Space in resolve Transform Node to compress to Rec709 or whatever you need in the end.
7. RAW colors are different from ProRes colors. Use ColorChecker and read other useful forum threads: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65134

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Gregg Guzman

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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 8:36 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:
Gregg Guzman wrote:
Dmitry Shijan wrote:If I don’t own an OLPF for the Micro Cinema would you suggest I shoot ProRes as opposed to raw to get the most out of the camera for grading? I understand ASA and WB will be locked in prores. I’d like to use the micro cinema but without the OLPF I’m not sure I can, unless Prores fixes issues introduced by raw. I will be shooting outside.


Ok, quick step by step faq for BMMCC/BMPCC and other BM cameras with BAE Systems Fairchild sensors:
1. IR pollution problem - use IR filter (Hoya UV IR works well) 100% must have.
2. Moire/Aliasing problem - use OLPF filter (Mosaic OLPF or RawLite, both have built in IR filter) See this thread for details and tests http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?20918
3. Cross Hatching problem - can be fixed by shift X/Y position 0.5 in Resolve in post. See this thread for details
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51936&start=500#p323810
4. To deal with ProRes same as with RAW always shoot ProRes ISO800. This allow you use boosting Expose and than lowering Gain method n post. See this threads for details viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65149
http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?20965
5. To adjust WB in ProRes same as in RAW you can:
set a node to L*a*b
bypass chanel 1 (Luma)
use Ch2 (*a) to adjust tint using green offset or curves
use Ch3 (*b) to adjust temp using blue offset or curves
6. Grade in Log and wide color gamut and use Color Space in resolve Transform Node to compress to Rec709 or whatever you need in the end.
7. RAW colors are different from ProRes colors. Use ColorChecker and read other useful forum threads: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65134

Image


Thanks this is a wealth of knowledge!
1 & 2. I’m going to invest in the Mosaic Vaf \ IR filter. Their installation seems easy. Always been curious about adjusting focus after adding shim.

3. Blackmagic sent me a fix for the crosshatching months ago that I use and love.

4. Got it. I’ll probably shoot raw. Since prores seems to only helps with file size.

5 & 6. I need to research these.

7. I have a color checker. I’ll make sure to use for the short.

Thanks!
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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 9:01 pm

Lenses on the Pocket or Micro will make a difference with the ability to resolve fine details to excite aliasing.

I’ve noticed a lot of aliasing with the Nikon full frame lenses adapted, but not much with the Panasonic.

I’ve seen tests and done tests where raw shows more aliasing than ProRes and more detail.

I bought the OLPF from Mosaic because it did bother me in the end.

I would suggest the Veydra lenses for the micro camera.


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Re: Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera or Canon 1dx Mark II

PostSun Mar 18, 2018 9:23 pm

Here is also copy/paste of my current workflow from this post viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65149#p382001

Project color settings:
Input: BMDfilm/BMDfilm (depending of camera)
Timeline: V-gamut/RED Log3G10 (you can also experiment with LogC or other LOG curves)
Output: Bypass

- Adjust WB in RAW tab
- Cross Hatching Pattern Fix Node (X/Y 0.5px)
- Temporary Noise Reduction Node (if available)
- Chroma Noise Reduction Node (if available)
- Boost Expose with Lower Gain Node (if needed)
- Secondary WB Node (for more precise WB adjustment)
- ColorChecker correction Node
- Highlights Node (if needed)
- Contrast/Pivot Node
- Color Space Transform Node (Timeline to Rec709, Saturation and Gamma mapping turned ON)
- Film emulation LUT Node (if needed)
- Sharpen Node (if available and if needed to recover fine details smoothed by OLPF filter)

And some tips copy/pasted info from other threads:

In Micro and Pocket cameras RAW colors are very different from ProRes colors. There are two different implementations of RAW input colors in Resolve:
1. To get corrected colors from RAW you need to set project settings to YRGB and bypass input color space transform in project settings. It helps to get 100% exact same colors from RAW as from ProRes. But same time it also can make things worse in some situations.
2. To get original sensor data without additional factory color correction you need to set project settings to YRGB Color Managed. This will implement RAW data as is, without any additional correction. This method needs additional manual ColorChecker correction to get reach saturated colors.

First i have odd results with ColorChecker but later i figure how to use it. It works better when timeline set to wide gamut color spaces and Log gamma curve. You should also setup preferences in Resolve Color Match tool tab according timeline preferences. As for me Panasonic V-gamut works best as wide gamut color spaces. RED Log3G10 or Arri LogC are great Log gamma curves to work.
Overall i suggest always work in wide gamut with log curve and add Color Space Transform Node with Gamma and Saturation mapping turned ON in the end of the chain to convert to Rec709 color space for export and monitoring.

Actually you can just create few reference ColorChecker shots in uniform daylight conditions and use them to correct and fix dimmed RAW colors in all footage. This gives you clear starting point for color correction and will match RAW colors very close to ProRes.

I came to the conclusion that BMDfilm log and color space is not a best setting for timeline. It works great for boosting Expose and lowering Gain but just very strange and unnatural when you adjust contrast. Arri LogC is always feels very low contrast. Cineon LOG (middle contrast Pivot 0.52) is limited in some situations. So i moved to RED Log3G10 (middle contrast Pivot 0.38) which have same contrast response as Cineon.
As a color Gamut i use Panasonic V-Gamut because it is the only usable color gamut to work with ColorChecker correction tool in Resolve.

RED Wide Gamut shifts colors to purple reds when use ColorChecker correction tool (probably Resolve bug)
ACES Gamut works very well ColorChecker correction tool but shifts colors to warm because D60 white point and because Resolve can't compensate it back.
Rec2020 is more like delivery color gamut and if you use as Timeline color space it adds Rec2020 metadata to exported file even if final Color Space Transform Node set to Rec709. This produce oversaturation in some video players which can read that metadata.

To compress LOG to Rec you can use Color Space Transform node in Resolve with Gamma mapping turned ON.
Or you can generate custom 1DLUT in LUTCalc https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/LUTCalc/index.html
As Out Gamma i use Amira709 because for my subjective opinion it it gives best result. (You can also try Alexa-X-2 and LC709/A made by Sony as well)
For color gamut transformation i use Color Space Transform node in Resolve. In Resolve 14 beta they add New Saturation mapping to Color Space Transform node. This is great feature that finally helps to remove hard saturation clipping in extreme values.

Set input to BMDfilmBMDfilm, set timeline for example to V-Gamut with RED Log3G10.
Apply Log3G10 to Amira709 1DLUT Node and Color Space Transform Node.
So i do all my grade in log gamma and in wide color space BEFORE transformation LUTs, but see final result in realtime in Rec709.
AFTER transformation LUT you can apply regular film emulation LUT and add luma sharpen. As a film emulation LUTs i use free GMIC Film Emulation collection converted from original HaldCLUT to .cube format to use in Resolve.

Boosting Expose for RAW is 100% same as boosting Gain for ProRes in Linear Gamma.
Lowering Gain must be done in LOG gamma. Each LOG gamma have different contrast response, BMDfilm and RED Log3G10 works best for this adjustment in my opinion.

To adjust Exposure in ProRes footage same as in RAW add two Color Space Transform nodes, and one more node in the middle.
Set first node input gamma Timeline Gamma in , Linear out
Set another node input gamma Linear in , Timeline Gamma out.
Adjust Gain in the middle node. This produce exact result as Exposure slider in RAW controls.

Boosting exposure and lowering gain is similar to boosting shadows but works in more natural and physically correct way.
Boosting shadows/highlights in Secondaries tab don't designed for so large and uniform adjustments.
Boosting shadows/highlights slider in RAW tab works same as Adobe Camera RAW or many other RAW processing apps. It adds destructive luma masks and ruins your footage source. So be aware of use it.

About 3 additional stops recovered from shadows is the real clean limit for BMMCC camera. Dig deeper and Fixed Pattern Noise became too visible over moving image.
Feel free to underexpose. But you are forced to use temporary noise reduction mixed with Chroma noise reduction, adding 0.5 XY shift to remove Cross Hatching and using OLPF+IR filter to eliminate wired moire/aliasing in RAW. Also use RAW+ColorChecker correction to get neutral starting point without shifted and desaturated colors. This will allow pixel perfect quality from BMMCC camera without downsampling.

It is better to Set 'Output Color Space' in Project Settings to "Bypass". Just less waste math and faster to work when you need to experiment with new Timeline color space.
Project Settings In/Out color spaces are just same as Color Space Transform. It takes your footage source color space and transforms it to timeline color space.

If you use Color Checker, set all Color Checker in/out spaces and gamma same as your TIMELINE settings (In your situation Source and destination Gammas are REDLog3G10) Color Checker tool also usually slightly boosts contrast. Color Checker tool work not too perfect when target shoot in warm and low light situations. I mean don't expect to get 100% correct daylight colors from target shoot with weak tungsten bulb. But it helps a lot. Make tests, experiment....

It is simpler to add Final Rec709 Color Space Transform Node and film emulation LUT and sharpen to Timeline chain node (see two dot switchers above Nodes window). So this will affect all timeline footage at once. Temporary Noise Reduction don't works this way, so you need to add it to every single clip.

P.S. Boost Expose with Lower Gain trick works only with underexposed footage. This allow extend dynamic range by recovering information shadows. In normal dynamic range scene, shoot with correct in camera expose you may use only highlights rolloff.

P.P.S. Different lenses different have very contrast. I noticed that for vintage lenses i usually boost contrast to 1.2, but for modern lenses same contrast feels around 0. You can also try to use Arri LogC timeline gamma curve, It is also great but with less contrast and different look. (Don't forget to change it ColorChecker settings too)

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