4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

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sirandyhoffman

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4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 6:48 pm

Alright, lets be real about this. You cannot possibly call a camera a "cinema camera" without an option for cine glass. It's a tad bit ridiculous and I'd say we should all be slightly ashamed for not making this a major topic. I understand many of us are working with micro budgets, but c'mon Canon glass is by no means even close to being designed for cinema. Automatic focus with such a short focus distance! Active iris! If we had made this a point with the 2.5k camera maybe they may have implemented a PL mount or something adaptable to PL on the 4k.

If you rent glass for cinema, chances are you're renting Zeiss, Cook, or Angenieux all of which are manual lenses with PL mounts.

What can we do, and can anyone from Black Magic Design address this or at least acknowledge this considerably important thread please. Why make a 4k cine camera with improved global shutter when all we can use are zeiss photo lenses and assorted canon mount lenses. Pardon my attitude on this but I find it all a bit silly (and yes, I clearly understand it from a sellable/marketing standpoint, but throw us cinemaphers, not videographers, a bone please).

I look forward to my MFT mount 2.5k when it arrives and am happy to see such amazing results. Keep it up Black Magic! Lets improve your cine camera line together!!

Cheers,

Andy
Last edited by sirandyhoffman on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 7:02 pm

There might be a BMPC-4K with a PL mount someday (maybe), but in the meantime: Can you use a PL-to-EF mount adapter?


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sirandyhoffman

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 7:27 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:There might be a BMPC-4K with a PL mount someday (maybe), but in the meantime: Can you use a PL-to-EF mount adapter?


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Hi Peter!

Just want to mention first, I appreciate your posts and replies throughout this forum - I've seen several very informative posts of yours. Thanks for that!

As for the PL to EF adapter, it's my understanding that the EF protrudes too far out from the sensor to adapt on top of an EF mount, however there may be an option for customization by removing the EF mount as people have done with the Canon 7D, but the customization by someone qualified is likely to cost at least a grand. :/
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 7:31 pm

sirandyhoffman wrote:... As for the PL to EF adapter, it's my understanding that the EF protrudes too far out from the sensor to adapt on top of an EF mount, however there may be an option for customization by removing the EF mount as people have done with the Canon 7D, but the customization by someone qualified is likely to cost at least a grand. :/


I thought the issue with traditional DSLRs such as the 7D is that their mirror can prevent use of certain PL lenses? (The BMCC doesn't have a mirror.)

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sirandyhoffman

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 7:40 pm

I thought the issue with traditional DSLRs such as the 7D is that their mirror can prevent use of certain PL lenses? (The BMCC doesn't have a mirror.)

-[/quote]

The mirror did have to be removed but so did the whole EF mount. PL and EF are similar distances from the sensor, so stacking a PL adapter on top of an EF is not workable.

Here's a article on that: http://matthewduclos.wordpress.com/2012 ... -possible/
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sean mclennan

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 8:18 pm

Schneider Optics makes some pretty decent "cinema" glass do they not? The Cine-Xenar are offered in EF mount.

Zeiss is making good glass...in EF mount.

Yes, Canon makes good cinema glass as well. Not talking still lenses, but actually cinema glass that cost more than my car...in EF mount.

There are many pro's using EF mount right now. So unless you've already invested $$$ in some glass you can't fit on EF, there's no problem here.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 8:21 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:
sirandyhoffman wrote:... As for the PL to EF adapter, it's my understanding that the EF protrudes too far out from the sensor to adapt on top of an EF mount, however there may be an option for customization by removing the EF mount as people have done with the Canon 7D, but the customization by someone qualified is likely to cost at least a grand. :/


I thought the issue with traditional DSLRs such as the 7D is that their mirror can prevent use of certain PL lenses? (The BMCC doesn't have a mirror.)

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Some work, others don't. All depends on the distance from the back of the lens to the sensor. It can't be less than 44mm.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 8:29 pm

You can use certain PL glass with an EF adapter, there's a thread about which lenses work. search for it, I've already linked to it in many other discussions like this one.

As far as "Cine" glass is concerned Canon has a line of EF and PL cine glass, Zeiss CP.2's all come in EF variety, even their compact zooms. Also Samyang has a cine glass line for EOS. I have the 85mm one and its amazing. T1.5 and sub $500.

Cine glass can just mean that focus and iris are full manual and automatically work with follow focus systems (no rings to stick on the lens barrel).

As long as Canon's line of cinema cameras live on and the BM cameras live on I'm sure more and more EF cine style glass will become more available. But really the 85mm Samyang I have is pretty nice, and if I need something better, well I know where to rent some Zeiss glass from.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 8:55 pm

Cineglass means a lot more than just declicked and longer focus throws. If you don't know why it's so important for cinematographers to use the right lenses for the job, then you're missing out. there is a world of difference between a S4 cooke and an Ultraprime in terms of look. I brought this up before, and of course was shot down because most people just don't seem to understand why this is such a big deal for anyone who would love to use a BM camera for a shoot; but can't because it doesn't offer the ability to use the lenses we really want to use.
And if you are really trying to compare a Samayang to even a CP2 or a Cooke, you really need to spend more time with high-end lenses.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:08 pm

I don't think that's the point trying to be made Adrian. The point is there are many "cinema" lenses that offer native EF mount and many that CAN be adapted for use on EF. There are several Cooke lenses you can use on the EF body.

The BMCC and BM4K are targeted at the prosumer. 4K for 4K and all that. The EF mount is the largest currently available mount in production in the world. Especially at the prosumer level. There are millions of lenses available.

What's the point of making an affordable cinema camera and sticking a native PL mount on it when the majority of your customers can't afford PL lenses?

geeze...people just entering this space are unhappy they can't use autofocus lenses and the seasoned pros are unhappy they can't use their glass without adapters.

No one's happy to have a 4K camera for 4K...remind me of a Louis CK bit ;)
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:12 pm

If this is the case then BM needs to better pick where their camera goes. If it's for the prosumer crowd, then give them autofocus and all that, however if they seriously want to get this to be a workable production camera, they need to open it up to the higher-end glass that professionals want to and need to use. This middle ground does no one good. Or they could've solved all of the problems by just making it IMS.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:15 pm

First, thank you for the comments on PL to EF adapting. But to reiterate, I am not saying there is no option for cine lenses. Yes there are a few manual iris and focus control lenses, but the standard for cine lens rental is PL, and ABSOLUTELY NOT EF. That is what I'm saying. Can we stop catering to Canon mount for the 4k camera because it is to be considered a cine camera. In my arena, Zeiss primes and PL mount zooms are the standard for quality. So, rather than search and adapt to favor low end "cine" glass that may or may not be a photo lens, lets design for cine glass which is primarily PL mount.

The point being is that lenses mean a great deal in contrast and detail as we know. So, this 4k camera would be a great match (since it will be a cheap rental) for high-end glass. Where the budget is saved by renting this camera, it can be put into a rental for great glass.

**Disclaimer: I am not dissing event, documentary, or broadcast shooting, I'm simply stating that a camera calling itself a cinema camera should be prepared and favoring the ability to use more easily cinema glass.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:16 pm

Yes. I agree that it makes no sense to make an amazing camera affordable only to work with lenses that cost three times as much as the camera. People still get paid thousands a day and work in video legal broadcast with dslrs. If you can not work with better then what most peopple work with without complaining for more then buy a 20 000 dollar camera and spend your pocket change on some 6 000 dollar lenses!
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:18 pm

And I do believe that a pl mount in the future is confirmed by the company.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:22 pm

sean mclennan wrote:I don't think that's the point trying to be made Adrian. The point is there are many "cinema" lenses that offer native EF mount and many that CAN be adapted for use on EF. There are several Cooke lenses you can use on the EF body.

The BMCC and BM4K are targeted at the prosumer. 4K for 4K and all that. The EF mount is the largest currently available mount in production in the world. Especially at the prosumer level. There are millions of lenses available.

What's the point of making an affordable cinema camera and sticking a native PL mount on it when the majority of your customers can't afford PL lenses?

geeze...people just entering this space are unhappy they can't use autofocus lenses and the seasoned pros are unhappy they can't use their glass without adapters.

No one's happy to have a 4K camera for 4K...remind me of a Louis CK bit ;)

Exactly!

AdrianSierkowski wrote:If this is the case then BM needs to better pick where their camera goes. If it's for the prosumer crowd, then give them autofocus and all that, however if they seriously want to get this to be a workable production camera, they need to open it up to the higher-end glass that professionals want to and need to use. This middle ground does no one good. Or they could've solved all of the problems by just making it IMS.


If you can't make a cheaper lens to work, well i'm sorry.

sirandyhoffman wrote:First, thank you for the comments on PL to EF adapting. But to reiterate, I am not saying there is no option for cine lenses. Yes there are a few manual iris and focus control lenses, but the standard for cine lens rental is PL, and ABSOLUTELY NOT EF. That is what I'm saying. Can we stop catering to Canon mount for the 4k camera because it is to be considered a cine camera. In my arena, Zeiss primes and PL mount zooms are the standard for quality. So, rather than search and adapt to favor low end "cine" glass that may or may not be a photo lens, lets design for cine glass which is primarily PL mount.

The point being is that lenses mean a great deal in contrast and detail as we know. So, this 4k camera would be a great match (since it will be a cheap rental) for high-end glass. Where the budget is saved by renting this camera, it can be put into a rental for great glass.

**Disclaimer: I am not dissing event, documentary, or broadcast shooting, I'm simply stating that a camera calling itself a cinema camera should be prepared and favoring the ability to use more easily cinema glass.


Zeiss primes do work on the EF, and a lot of PL zooms do fit with an adapter.
the 4K camera is the Production cam, not the cinema cam.
What was your point again?

ungovernedreason wrote:Yes. I agree that it makes no sense to make an amazing camera affordable only to work with lenses that cost three times as much as the camera. People still get paid thousands a day and work in video legal broadcast with dslrs. If you can not work with better then what most peopple work with without complaining for more then buy a 20 000 dollar camera and spend your pocket change on some 6 000 dollar lenses!


its why you rent lenses that you cant buy.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:27 pm

It's not about what I can and can't make work. It's about the fact that I am personally sick to death about being forced into these idiotic compromises. I've used so much glass in my time in so many situations it's almost comical, but the one thing I know is that if I am the DoP of a project I am tired of the tools that are coming to market making things more and more difficult, convoluted, and complicated than they need to be.
And if all of you can't understand why professionals who have budgets behind them might want to use a BMCC with a S4 prime, or a 1980s Super Speed, or Primos, then I'm sorry but we're just not going to agree and that doesn't invalidate the central point that in order to be useful for a wide range of productions/rental houses we need a camera which can interface with the thousands of dollars of equipment we normally bring out on a typical shoot-- from wireless FFs to Matteboxes to the lenses upon which we trust, rely, and know because they give us the look we are after-- not because it just happens to be what everyone rushed out and bought because some stills camera company enables a video read off of a sensor.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:28 pm

Also let's not get into trying to use this as a "b" cam or small mounted cam with and Alexa or a Red or a Sony or any of the other professional systems out there where this little thing could really do some fun damage.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:38 pm

but you're not FORCED into anything...last time I checked, there were several other professional cameras that all come with native PL mounts. They also do everything the BM4K camera does, several things better. They also cost significantly more. You have options my friend.

If we're into a debate about the rental market...you can rent Alexas too. Your problem is solved then.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:43 pm

But the reason why they can't just put a PL mount on any of these cameras is?
Look it boils down to simply this, they made a choice which some people want addressed because it's important to them. if it's not important to you, fine, but don't think that everyone is going to be fine with having to use EF lenses. Some of us would like to use PL glass, and as such we are voicing that.
It's not about whether or not I can get production to rent me an Alexa, or an Epic or what have you. It's about the fact that there are people who want to rent or own a BM4K and put something better than a CP on it because it's a 4K camera with a global shutter which they'd very much so like to use but currently aren't comfortable or willing to because of one very simple to fix missing feature-- that of being able to use the pro lenses we want.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:48 pm

sean mclennan wrote:but you're not FORCED into anything...last time I checked, there were several other professional cameras that all come with native PL mounts. They also do everything the BM4K camera does, several things better. They also cost significantly more. You have options my friend.

If we're into a debate about the rental market...you can rent Alexas too. Your problem is solved then.


exactly again!

there is a reason why the camera is so cheap.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:50 pm

I would agree the best solution is RED's system. Modular lens mounts. However, I don't think that fit in BM's design and/or cost structure. Same for the internal battery. They had to make certain design choices to keep the camera at it's price point.

I just know the market they were targeting with the BMCC is one that's coming up from DSLRs and less one that's coming down from RED/Alexas. So it makes sense to choose EF.

So what exactly can you NOT use on the 4K camera?
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:55 pm

I'd not put any PL lenses on an EF mount. it's not robust enough. That's a problem. And c'mon, seriously, how much more would it have cost to do an IMS? And why could they not make that up by charging for it? You can look @ all the adapters out there in the world for M43rd lenses and get an idea that you're talking maybe another $500 in cost.
Also I have no idea why they'd do an internal batt -v- just having a power port connector as that probably would have lowered costs on their end and simplified the build.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 9:58 pm

Adrian: Once more, with feeling: BMD has already hinted (strongly, more than once, but no guarantees) that a future version of the BMPC-4K may have a PL mount.

All cameras, including BMD's cameras, embody compromises, regardless of their price.

As we know, the BMPC-4K does not feature frame rates >30 fps. Some people feel very strongly that this is a sin, a travesty, but really it's just a compromise made by consenting adults at BMD. As is their right. They can pick and choose from technology available at a particular point in time and design a camera with certain features to sell at a particular price. All cameras, from every manufacturer go through a similar decision making process.

I happen to agree with BMD that it made sense approx. 6-18 months ago when they probably started designing the BMPC-4K to make the choices they made -- including the EF mount. The EF mount, the body design, most of the firmware, etc. is identical to the BMCC because that's what they estimated (way back when) to make it possible to announce & ship the BMPC-4K for $4K in 2013.

Yes, BMD absolutely could have offered a PL mount version first, before or instead of a EF version, but that might have slowed shipping by some months, and, frankly (& possibly more importantly) the PL market is smaller than the EF market. Note that the BMPC-4K will sell for only $500 more than the list price of a 5DM3, an extremely popular HD video production camera (that also happens to take great stills!).

And, if they think it'll be profitable (I think it will be) they'll probably make a PL version of the BMPC-4K, too.

But I also think that a "E" mount would be best of all, but I don't run BMD: They probably know what Sony's licensing terms allow/disallow them to do with E mount.

And, given the $4K price point that they set for the BMPC-4K (because "4K for $4K" is simply too powerful a marketing opportunity to pass up), some kind of IMS universal/interchangeable mount probably isn't possible at that price -- today.

I hope they make other mount versions of the BMPC-4K. But one simply isn't more important than the other.

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 10:10 pm

Peter, please don't be condescending towards me with your "with feeling" comment. it is not appreciated in the least.
Secondly, while it's great that there's a rumor of this happening, I think a lot of people would appreciate something more substantive than that. Further, I think a lot of people would appreciate when then are, on the company's forum, asking for something which isn't there, that they aren't treated like idiots because oh if you can't make it work, then the problem is on you because you don't like being limited to EF glass or whatever.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 10:15 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:
All cameras, including BMD's cameras, embody compromises, regardless of their price.


With the proportion of compromises increasing as price decreases!

Although, the F5 looks pretty balanced to me Peter :mrgreen:
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 10:20 pm

I know that Black Magic Design has made a choice that makes them the most money. It has become clear that is their main priority. I know Grant shows an excitement that they are doing something beneficial, but really it's about money. So the money is in the EF catering to prosumers, but, they owe the consumer at this point. It's not their fault that the last set of cameras are extremely delayed, but if they continue to release cameras and advertise like their is nothing wrong they are fooling themselves. Throw a bone to cinematographers that love cine glass and truly know it's worth!!

Great glass means sooo much, and at a certain level of camera quality the glass means more than the camera. So, and I know it's rumored, I would like this post to help influence the production of a PL mount. Black Magic Design needs to know PL lovers are out there, and perhaps we could share the amount of cameras with EF lovers.

Now to piss you all off haha, IF CANON MOUNT LOVERS WEREN'T SOLD BY ADVERTISING AND SILLY BLOGGERS LIKE PHILLIP BLOOM (no offense Phil, just want to piss y'all off) THEY MIGHT UNDERSTAND THE QUALITY OF HIGH-END GLASS!! GO READ ROGER DEAKENS FORUM EVERY NOW AND AGAIN, JEEEEEZ! Haha
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 10:23 pm

Well, manufacturing is not that simple I'm afraid.

For every part that can be adjusted requires more man hours to build, configure and test before shipping. Even Mac Pro are shipping now with glued in batteries. Not for our benefit, but because it's cheaper and increases Apple's margins. So it's entirely feasible to say that's the reason behind some of the choices BM made. Frankly, I'm surprised it's powered mount.

And let's face it...I don't see anyone else out there capable of releasing a 4K for 4K solution. Is that because they can't, or won't? RED said they would...instead they did 5K for 15K with the Scarlet.

I realize this is a compromise for some users, however with no offence meant, I think you are in the minority on this particular issue. Having said that, since they are making BMCC in EF and MFT....there is no reason they can't offer the BM4K in EF and PL...and I believe they probably will in the near future. Just look at how quickly they added the MFT mount option to the BMCC.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 10:31 pm

AdrianSierkowski wrote:Peter, please don't be condescending towards me with your "with feeling" comment. it is not appreciated in the least.
Secondly, while it's great that there's a rumor of this happening, I think a lot of people would appreciate something more substantive than that. Further, I think a lot of people would appreciate when then are, on the company's forum, asking for something which isn't there, that they aren't treated like idiots because oh if you can't make it work, then the problem is on you because you don't like being limited to EF glass or whatever.


Hi Adrian: My apology; no condescension was intended, and sorry if it came across that way. Just meant, "to repeat". Again, no slight intended.

I don't think anyone here is trying to make you feel like an idiot by disagreeing with you. You obviously aren't an idiot because an idiot wouldn't be asking the questions you're asking.

However, BMD (Sony, Canon, etc.) aren't going to give you or anyone else a firm answer to certain questions that they're not prepared to answer. Period.

Absolutely, feel free to ask questions. (I just asked BMD a question in another thread). Sometimes the answer will be vague or "no comment" or "maybe", and sometimes the answer will be to the point, and sometimes it's the answer you're hoping for, but there's no guarantee which.

And again, apologies if my previous reply seemed flippant. Cheers.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 10:36 pm

sean mclennan wrote:
I realize this is a compromise for some users, however with no offence meant, I think you are in the minority on this particular issue. Having said that, since they are making BMCC in EF and MFT....there is no reason they can't offer the BM4K in EF and PL...and I believe they probably will in the near future. Just look at how quickly they added the MFT mount option to the BMCC.


True that sir. I'm pretty hopeful for a PL mount. Now that I think of it, they should just create a new mount that is only made to hold adapters to other mounts. That way you could use a variety of mounts on one cam. Not sure how practical it would be but definitely a fun idea.
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Manu Gil

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 10:56 pm

Between EF and PL, I prefer EF mount. But actually I like is E

Entre EF y PL, Yo prefiero EF mount. Pero en realidad la que me gusta es E Mount.
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Trevor Zuck

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 11:17 pm

sirandyhoffman wrote:Great glass means sooo much, and at a certain level of camera quality the glass means more than the camera. So, and I know it's rumored, I would like this post to help influence the production of a PL mount. Black Magic Design needs to know PL lovers are out there, and perhaps we could share the amount of cameras with EF lovers.

Now to piss you all off haha, IF CANON MOUNT LOVERS WEREN'T SOLD BY ADVERTISING AND SILLY BLOGGERS LIKE PHILLIP BLOOM (no offense Phil, just want to piss y'all off) THEY MIGHT UNDERSTAND THE QUALITY OF HIGH-END GLASS!! GO READ ROGER DEAKENS FORUM EVERY NOW AND AGAIN, JEEEEEZ! Haha


I come from the point of view of post production. I have to key, scale, heavily alter, adjust, distort images all the time. I've also got plenty of experience working with lesser equipment and being on set with clients. I work with Alexa footage all the time thats being shot with Zeiss Primes and other high quality glass.

Yes nice glass is nice, but at the end of the day if the client isn't on set they cant tell a 7D from an Alexa if you know how to use either. and the general public that sees most things as an h264 compressed file playing on the web. that extra detail and quality that those lenses produce are hardly noticeable to a large majority of people, the viewer, the end audience. Even seeing things on a projector soften things up and detail is lost. The image looks best on the monitor in front of you in your editing suite, everything past that and detail and quality go down. Now I know that lenses have characteristics that you just cant quite replicate or even fully describe. But my point is that cheaper glass is more than fine to handle 90% of what you throw at it. yes you may have to work a little harder, but with hard work comes great results.

I know Canon glass isn't the best but its good enough for professional photographers that are getting their images printed, i think its good enough for 4K...

Just the other day I was comparing Alexa footage to a C300 and my BMCC, 2 of those cameras were using Canon glass, and all 3 shots looked good. I didn't care for the Alexa footage but only because of the grade. And i preferred the BMCC over the C300 only because of the color and roll off. (3 different shots, under different circumstances, shot by 2 different people with varying amounts of experience. I was comparing resolution of materials, and how skin tones were handled. Actual apples to apples type test hopefully next week)

If you want to make a plea for a PL mount you can join the other threads. but to dis a product for giving exceptional quality for an amazing price, because it doesn't have 1 thing you want? come on, really?

*this was directed at no one individual. Quoting Andy was just a segway. but seriously though keep calm and carry on
- TZ

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Joseph Hung

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 11:51 pm

I agree with everyone here unfortunately. Yes there are some nice EF cine lenses and yes there are many more, probably higher quality PL cine lenses too. Each have their place in all of this and are useful to most everyone. There are differences between the current multitude of EF still lenses however. One of which is the amount of breathing, something you only notice during motion rather than taking a still. Cine lenses generally don't breathe as much or very little in comparison. Pulling focus on a still lens, like most of EF still lenses, the breathing is often times too much and is distracting. Of course there are other differences, such as the Positive Lock system is a rock solid mount, whereas EF mounts have lower tolerances and has play in the mount. However, I have not shot on Canon's EF cine lenses yet. I have shot on the CP.2s but I'm not much of a fan. It boils down to what each DP prefers and the project itself. I agree that there should also be a PL mount version of the BMPC launched at the same time as the EF. And I hope BM delivers on time.
Unless BM has a deal going with Canon to help sell lenses? That's another story.
Last edited by Joseph Hung on Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostWed Apr 17, 2013 12:31 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:
Hi Adrian: My apology; no condescension was intended, and sorry if it came across that way. Just meant, "to repeat". Again, no slight intended.


Ehh I'm sorry as well; I'm getting thinner skinned than I like sometimes, and I jumped to conclusion it was a slight. No worries.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostWed Apr 17, 2013 10:51 pm

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Dustin Uy

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostThu Apr 18, 2013 1:20 am

id prefer e-mount.
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Christopher Barry

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostThu Apr 18, 2013 3:09 am

As raised in another thread, E-mount on the camera may not be authorised by Sony as per some general policy statement.

The answer is MFT mount on the BMPC, using it as an adaptable base mount to everything and just about any lens. An MFT BMPC is not intended for MFT lenses, more of a launch base to just about any lens you may want to mount. The 19.25mm flange focal distance is ideal to adapt from, and the product is already designed in the BMCC MFT. Make the BMCC MFT with the internals of the 4K BMPC and adapt from there. Some discussion has been raised in another thread:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6795&start=220#p45843
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David Regenthal

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostThu Apr 18, 2013 3:37 am

Call me crazy but I think some people just need their own custom camera manufacturer!

"It's all about the money!" . . . it's all about this, it's all about that . . . really?

I'll be as happy as anyone to see (an eventual) PL mount but my instincts, (and common sense) despite whatever else I might wish for, is that BM's thinking was probably more along the lines of, "what mount can I put on my camera that will permit adoption of the widest number of lenses already in circulation" (and not all of which would cost more than the camera I was going to hang them on)?
Safe bet my answer would probably be CANON.

"and now back to our regularly scheduled program in progress . . ."

If anyone's interested I'll be happy to take your pre-orders for the 4k BMPC beginning now.
Just send your money to . . .
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostThu Apr 18, 2013 7:37 am

@adrian...

Relax my friend. BMD know that EF won't suit everyone. The same thing happened with the first BMCC. they released it as an EF mount camera. Then a few months later announced the m4/3 version which by proxxy, was their way of allowing PL mount.

They aren't one of the big guys just yet. It takes time. They also have to take care of the MAJORITY of the market, which isn't you and I. Most of them don't have access or cant afford PL.

Also, mount's like IMS require a lot of precision engineering. Way beyond the cost scope of this price point. Look at how much a TI PL mount on an EPIC costs.....

jb
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Robert Rif

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostThu Apr 18, 2013 8:50 am

Yes, it definitely would be nice to have another option for the mount on the s35 camera. The EF-mount pretty much rule out all PL, Oct-19, FD, MD glass that's out there. Put on a e.g. MFT-mount and you can use all of these and EF lenses, so that can't possibly be a bad thing.

While I'll get the s16 as soon as it's released, I'll have to put the s35 on hold, for now..
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostThu Apr 18, 2013 8:51 am

Robert Rif wrote:. Put on a e.g. MFT-mount and you can use all of these and EF lenses, so that can't possibly be a bad thing.

While I'll get the s16 as soon as it's released, I'll have to put the s35 on hold, for now..


MFT wouldn't make any sense on the 4K as the sensor is too large. Best to go straight to PL mount.

jb
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Robert Rif

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostThu Apr 18, 2013 9:01 am

John Brawley wrote:MFT wouldn't make any sense on the 4K as the sensor is too large. Best to go straight to PL mount.

jb


Indeed. I used MFT just as a stand in for anything but EF :)
Last edited by Robert Rif on Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostThu Apr 18, 2013 11:31 am

Incredible nitpicking. This and people wanting higher frame rates in a 4k camera that costs less than 4k is unbelievable.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostThu Apr 18, 2013 11:52 am

Michael Sandiford wrote:Incredible nitpicking. This and people wanting higher frame rates in a 4k camera that costs less than 4k is unbelievable.

You've missed the point. I'd pay extra for the BMPC to get a 4k cam with higher framerates.

In Australia the 4k works out half the price of the FS700. Not sure how much extra high framerates would be but theres room there to undercut.

But what camera comes out without a list of feature requests? Then there would be no room for improvement, no need to release a new camera ;)
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostThu Apr 18, 2013 12:03 pm

bigkevracer wrote:
Michael Sandiford wrote:Incredible nitpicking. This and people wanting higher frame rates in a 4k camera that costs less than 4k is unbelievable.

You've missed the point. I'd pay extra for the BMPC to get a 4k cam with higher framerates.

In Australia the 4k works out half the price of the FS700. Not sure how much extra high framerates would be but theres room there to undercut.

But what camera comes out without a list of feature requests? Then there would be no room for improvement, no need to release a new camera ;)


Then they may make that camera that costs more. It's just not the current versions.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostThu Apr 18, 2013 12:34 pm

Michael Sandiford wrote:
Then they may make that camera that costs more. It's just not the current versions.


But how much more? They make the camera $6k and it does 60fps? Still a bargain.

Just saying theres a lot of room for improvements, and I'm sure now that they've got the lower end of the market covered they'll look at the upper end.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostThu Apr 18, 2013 8:34 pm

bigkevracer wrote:
But how much more? They make the camera $6k and it does 60fps? Still a bargain.

Just saying theres a lot of room for improvements, and I'm sure now that they've got the lower end of the market covered they'll look at the upper end.


Of course there is, but isn't that the whole point. The original iPhones changed the way we used phones. However there were limitations. It wasn't until the third gen that it finally got 3G. That didn't negate how it shaped the market. Products evolve, either through user feedback or technical advance. I'm sure that HFR will come, but not quite yet.

The lens mount is one that also amuses me, like everyone will rush out and buy a set of S5i or Master Primes if BMD offer PL mounts. The cost of renting these for a week will cost more than the camera. It's not as if there are limitless used models floating around either. Even a 30 year old model in good nick will cost more than the camera. Yes, a PL mount will emerge, I'm sure, but as the cost shrinks and success of large sensor cine cameras grows other manufacturers will realise that there's money to be made and will offer more and more kit aimed at this market.
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostFri Apr 19, 2013 7:20 am

John Brawley wrote:
Robert Rif wrote:. Put on a e.g. MFT-mount and you can use all of these and EF lenses, so that can't possibly be a bad thing.
While I'll get the s16 as soon as it's released, I'll have to put the s35 on hold, for now..

MFT wouldn't make any sense on the 4K as the sensor is too large. Best to go straight to PL mount.
jb

Based on BMD's photo of the 4K BMPC in EF mount, the opening of MFT mount is equal to the diameter of the promoted EF mount. Yellow denotes BMCC sensor size, red denotes 4K BMPC sensor size, and blue is an estimate I have allowed for modifying the opening of the MFT mount to allow for a larger sensor (if indeed the 4K BMPC CCD sensor is larger than the marketing photo). A modification identified in blue may be done without affecting the mounting point between the MFT mount on the camera side and MFT lens/adapter side, when you study how they meet and are secured. Further, no matter how big the sensor, the active area of the sensor is what needs to be exposed to the lens. This is usually somewhat less than the actual sensor size.

Mr Brawley, no argument with you, sir, PL mount is great, industry standard for film and television production, an ideal next model to make in the BMPC series, however, not very adaptable at all from PL (52mm flange distance) and perhaps not so many users of this rather affordable camera own or will rent PL lenses as opposed to using lenses they already own, which leads me back to the prospect of suggesting another version of this camera, a third if you will, with a mount that opens up the prospect of all the other lenses that are sidelined, opening up another section of potential buyers of this desired camera that shoots 4K with GS. If the BMCC MFT body was used, even with minor mount modification to allow for the active sensor area to be revealed, it would provide the same gateway to mount just about every lens out there. I continue to suggest this because the 4K body is the same as the BMCC, and the MFT mount tested by yourself, and now with other beta testers appears solid and it's release being next. If what I am suggesting worked, it seem so simple to make an MFT version of the BMPC, thanks to the BMCC MFT development. I appreciate any observations that you or other forum members may have. Thank you.
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Robert Rif

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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostFri Apr 19, 2013 8:45 am

If possible, a modified MFT mount like this would be great in so many ways.

While being camera agnostic, it sure would be great to be lens mount agnostic too..
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 7:06 am

Blackmagic Cinema/production Cam 3rd generation: needed features (NAB 2014)

1) interchangeable lens mounts like EPIC & Scarlet (EF / PL)
2) 5k if ur feeling greedy
3) frame rates: 120fps @5k / 200fps @4k / 300fps @2k (I may be asking a lot here. Def need 120@ 3k)
4) 13+ stops DR



I am a BMCC 1st Gen owner (preorder April2012) and this My wish list for the 3rd Gen

I'd pay $6k for this!!! And it would make the Scarlet obsolete
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Re: 4k Camera Lens Mount (NEED CINE MOUNT NOT EF)!

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 8:22 am

sirandyhoffman wrote:Alright, lets be real about this. You cannot possibly call a camera a "cinema camera" without an option for cine glass. It's a tad bit ridiculous and I'd say we should all be slightly ashamed for not making this a major topic. I understand many of us are working with micro budgets, but c'mon Canon glass is by no means even close to being designed for cinema. Automatic focus with such a short focus distance! Active iris! If we had made this a point with the 2.5k camera maybe they may have implemented a PL mount or something adaptable to PL on the 4k.

If you rent glass for cinema, chances are you're renting Zeiss, Cook, or Angenieux all of which are manual lenses with PL mounts.

What can we do, and can anyone from Black Magic Design address this or at least acknowledge this considerably important thread please. Why make a 4k cine camera with improved global shutter when all we can use are zeiss photo lenses and assorted canon mount lenses. Pardon my attitude on this but I find it all a bit silly (and yes, I clearly understand it from a sellable/marketing standpoint, but throw us cinemaphers, not videographers, a bone please).

I look forward to my MFT mount 2.5k when it arrives and am happy to see such amazing results. Keep it up Black Magic! Lets improve your cine camera line together!!

Cheers,

Andy


I for one would be very upset now if they changed the mount as I have just invested heavily in Canon CN-E lenses for the camera. You cant just expect the camera to now change course when many of us have planned alongside it Just because it suits you. You should have spoken up much earlier.
We had discussions like this for the BMCC and of course don't mind two versions IE PL Mount alongside the EF.
Also the EF mount is a lot more professional than you are giving it credit for.
Many pro lenses have or can have EF mounts. In fact the Canon CN-Es and the Zeiss CP2 are the only game in town for the lower end professional

This argument is more appropriate for the BMCC than the 4k as the 4k has a larger sensor and therefore needs more control over dof and better built lenses as well as better glass The 4k overall is a more pro proposition and I see that as entirely in keeping with EF canon glass adapters or other lenses and there are plenty like the new tokina 18-35mm f1.9 that are going to get used with this camera.
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