Future support for ProRes RAW?

So far I haven't been able to find anyone talking about this. With Apple's announcement of ProRes RAW, it would be great to see the format added to the available recording formats in the URSA line. The compressed raw files are already a great way to save some space, but the ease of use a ProRes file offers could really help speed up workflows.
Anyone at BM have shareable insight into this?

-Ted

I think this question will Be answered on Monday with BM’s Press Conference announcement.
Cheers

So far I haven't been able to find anyone talking about this. With Apple's announcement of ProRes RAW, it would be great to see the format added to the available recording formats in the URSA line. The compressed raw files are already a great way to save some space, but the ease of use a ProRes file offers could really help speed up workflows.
Anyone at BM have shareable insight into this?

-Ted

how could you miss my post on the front page?

Another Aussie upstart creams it at NAB:

"The recent announcement of ProRes RAW has thrown up a lot of questions, such as how the new format differs from Cinema DNG, and which products it will be available on. In this exclusive interview with the Founder & CEO of Atomos, Jeromy Young, the first since the announcement was made, we find out just what makes this new format tick, and why it will matter to you." RSN

I went asleep during the interview. What did they say about how it worked?

Here’s the short version of that long interview if I may paraphrase:
"CinemaDNG emerged from a stills photography perspective where each large recorded frame gives you a stills image.

“ProRes raw doesn’t do that; it’s one video file per clip that retains the information, including metadata, from the camera sensor so that colour is not baked-in.”

So there you have it. That’s the “what,” but not the “how” or the “how well.” I’m sure we’ll learn more from other sources.

So maybe we can semi-conclude or think that CineDNG compressed is only spatial, bus as ProRes RAW is one file it also has temporal compression maybe?

I’m no expert on how current ProRes works, but my understanding is that the three (RGB) colour values are determined for a pixel but overall there’s significant compression applied. We know with current raw, there’s a single colourless value per photosite.

But combining the two may mean that the ProRes raw file only contains a single value per photosite but the conventional ProRes compression technique is applied to that single value (colourless). So the recorded media takes much less space than conventional ProRes and datarates are also greatly reduced. The ‘colour’ in ProRes raw is only applied at the debayer stage in your media processing or NLE application.

And if that describes the ‘how’ then this is relatively easy to add to BMD cameras because I would conclude there’s actually significantly less ProRes processing required in camera. Now that’s good news!

And the ‘how well’ question is also answered as that is totally driven by applications and we trust Resolve 15 will handle this very well indeed (as compared to what I saw from Átomos).

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So maybe we can semi-conclude or think that CineDNG compressed is only spatial, bus as ProRes RAW is one file it also has temporal compression maybe?

I would think so yes.

I just read now the DaVinci Resolve forum posts from Andrew Kolakowski that previously described what I was speculating about. I wasn’t aware he was saying the same things but I came to the same conclusions.


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So maybe we can semi-conclude or think that CineDNG compressed is only spatial, bus as ProRes RAW is one file it also has temporal compression maybe?

I would think so yes.

Why? ProRes was always an all-I compression without temporal compression applied because otherwise basically that would have been the same as HDV then.

So maybe we can semi-conclude or think that CineDNG compressed is only spatial, bus as ProRes RAW is one file it also has temporal compression maybe?

I would think so yes.

Why? ProRes was always an all-I compression without temporal compression applied because otherwise basically that would have been the same as HDV then.

Historically, yes. However, look at the data rate for Prores raw, 80-140MB, could you have such a large variance if there wasn't temporal compression?

I would imagine that the absence of temporal compression is one of the reasons ProRes is so fast with minimal seek time.

Here’s the short version of that long interview if I may paraphrase:
"CinemaDNG emerged from a stills photography perspective where each large recorded frame gives you a stills image.

“ProRes raw doesn’t do that; it’s one video file per clip that retains the information, including metadata, from the camera sensor so that colour is not baked-in.”

So there you have it. That’s the “what,” but not the “how” or the “how well.” I’m sure we’ll learn more from other sources.

Thanks Rick.

I would imagine that the absence of temporal compression is one of the reasons ProRes is so fast with minimal seek time.

Yes, but this is how all intermediate codecs work. It's not ProRes specific.

Historically, yes. However, look at the data rate for Prores raw, 80-140MB, could you have such a large variance if there wasn't temporal compression?

The data rate will vary a lot with scene complexity, which is pretty common with compression codecs in general.

There is one other space saving benefit though.

In CinemaDNG every frame has a Bayer pattern map that describes the color filter array, because CDNG is a stills format, so it's not designed with being clips in mind. In ProResRaw, that Bayer pattern data only has to be saved once per clip. Not a huge savings per frame to be sure, but one that adds up over a large number of frames.

Another significant reduction in resources: in CinemDNG, the file system must create a new file with every frame which can be thousands of files in a clip folder. With ProRes, you create one file per clip. Flash storage data management gets easier. And that might mean a lot of flash cards that failed BMD’s rigorous testing for raw video, may now pass.


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Howard, the ProRes raw White Paper explains why ProRes raw data rates are variable compared to the constant data rates of ProRes. ProRes raw maintains a constant image quality by design so a more complex frame takes more data to describe it accurately. A ProRes codec on the other hand maintains a constant datarate by adjusting the amount of compression so that a simple scene has less compression than a complex scene that must be highly compressed. The upshot is, it behaves like raw, and you’re going to love the freedom that brings you in post to maximize your image quality.

As I almost always shoot raw, I likely will be able to say in the future, “I almost always shoot ProRes raw.” I believe John Brawley has stated he usually shoots ProRes, but I’m thinking he will be saying, “I almost always shoot ProRes raw.”


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Wasn't that an argument used against cineform Raw? That variable data rates were too difficult. Funny if this codec is based on the standardized version of cineform which GoPro uses for stills at the moment.

The issue with ProRes is compromise to maintain datarate and with ProRes raw, constant quality at the expense of storage. As this is before debayering, the latter makes sense.

Howard, the ProRes raw White Paper explains why ProRes raw data rates are variable compared to the constant data rates of ProRes. ProRes raw maintains a constant image quality by design so a more complex frame takes more data to describe it accurately. A ProRes codec on the other hand maintains a constant datarate by adjusting the amount of compression so that a simple scene has less compression than a complex scene that must be highly compressed. The upshot is, it behaves like raw, and you’re going to love the freedom that brings you in post to maximize your image quality.

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Both versions are VBR, but with hard limits of peaks. ProRes RAW is "more VBR" and allows for higher peaks from targeted/average bitrate. Cineform is heavily VBR and this what is problematic in hardware implementations due to difficult to predict storage needs. DNxHD/R are constant bitrate.

Which is like saying stuff quality, we want more storage. A bit mind boggling, you still get a good deal.

Andrew, I paraphrased what Apple describes in their ProRes raw White Paper re the design goals of ProRes raw versus ProRes to explain the wide dynamic variation in datarates with ProRes raw. You get this dynamic variation from frame to frame without user intervention obviously as the algorithm attempts to maintain quality in ProRes raw from frame to frame.

The white paper used the term ‘constant’ datarate to describe normal ProRes behaviour from frame to frame. Yes it may not be precisely constant in execution but the design goal of the algorithm is a ‘constant’ datarate for a given setting.


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Yes. Apple got lost a bit with this, but it doesn't matter. ProRes RAW is more VBR than normal which can go fairly low for easy scenes, but only +10% for very difficult. It's not CBR like e.g. DNxHD for example though.

From normal ProRes white paper:

"ProRes is a variable bit rate (VBR) video codec. This means that the number of bits used to encode each frame within a stream is not constant, but varies from one frame to the next. For a given video frame size and a given ProRes codec type, the ProRes encoder aims to achieve a “target” number of bits per frame. Multiplying this number by the frames per second of the video format being encoded results in the target data rate for a specific ProRes format.
Although ProRes is a VBR codec, the variability is usually small. The actual data rate is usually close to the target data rate. For a given ProRes format, there is also a maximum number of bits per frame that is never exceeded. This maximum is approximately 10 percent more than the target number of bits per frame."

Andrew, I think we’re in agreement. What I’m calling ‘design’ goal is the ‘target.’ ProRes puts a priority on a quantitative target datarate with some variation by frame and ProRes raw has a priority on design quality with larger variation on the frame by frame datarate.

Thanks for that quotation in the original white paper. All good.


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Yep, ProRes RAW quality will be more consistent between frames than in case of normal ProRes ( for the cost of more "jumping" bitrate). Good thing is that it was designed between Apple and ATOMOS which has experience in designing recorders, so know how much "jumpiness" they can handle without causing recording issues (or enforcing big RAM cache).

This shows the difference between Cineform real VBR nature (which keeps all frame at relatively same quality) and ProREs "restricted" VBR:



ProRes RAW should be closer to Cineform than normal ProRes.

Day 1 is almost over at NAB. I find it hard to believe nobody has been able to find out anything from BMD about ProRes RAW on the Ursa Mini cameras?

Exclusive deal right now with Atomos and DJI


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Really? I already watched Atomos talk on a previous interview that was long on wind and short of substance. Exclusive for three months? Six months? It has to come. There has to be an interesting (and possibly disgusting) back story here. I can’t wait for the documentary about the first ten years of BMD camera development to learn what really was going on.


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I've been on the sidelines for a while but after today's camera announcement I'm ecstatic. If the engineers could fast-follow a BMPCC4K launch with ProRes RAW support, fuhgeddahboutit. Our world will experience a rare paradigm shift. I hope the camera hardware has the i/o and processing power, and BMD has the will to make this happen!

Somebody at NAB needs to corner the Atomos CEO or Grant Petty and get some answers about exclusivity and wide availability of ProRes RAW and plans for future implementation on the Ursa Mini line.

Okay I listened carefully to the above interview and Matthew Allard specifically asks about FCP X not adjusting ISO and temperature and the answer is a bunch of obfuscation that tells me Matthew is right. The camera profile has NOTHING to do with adjusting the ISO four or five stops as I’ve done with raw from the URSA Mini 4.6K sensor and it has nothing to do with changing the colour temperature several thousand degrees because it’s what I want to do. Jeremy implies that you’ll be able to make some adjustments in ProRes after debayering with the camera profile and I’m sure he’s right about that, but comparable to what we are used to in raw? I think not.

I do believe this is entirely due to a weak implementation of ProRes raw in FCP X. Resolve 15 will be fine after this undefined bit of an exclusive right to ProRes raw for Atomos and likely DJI.


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Somebody at NAB needs to corner the Atomos CEO or Grant Petty and get some answers about exclusivity and wide availability of ProRes RAW and plans for future implementation on the Ursa Mini line.

Beyond curiosity sake, why bother hassling them about it? Any future workflow benefits to ProResRAW are going to take years be realized as we’ll need to wait for the codec to be supported equally well across a large range of post production applications. Might as well let Canon, Sony and Panasonic camera owners deal with all the early adoptor bugs and headaches.
If what you seek is image quality, just shoot 12 bit ProRes4444 or 4:1 raw on your Ursa Mini. Either codec will give you just as much color depth and dynamic range as you’d ever get out of ProResRAW.

I’m definitely guilty of wanting to have the latest shiny new thing, but if I slow down and think about it logically, the fact is that ProResRAW (as currently implemented by Apple) isn’t really going to provide anything for the Ursa Mini cameras that the current available codecs don’t already offer.

My understanding is that it the exclusivity being talked about will be that way until Apple decides otherwise. Atomos is being quite adamant that it is a launch partner, not an exclusive partner. So time will tell. My feeling is that this will be released to other companies sooner than you might think.

https://vimeo.com/263818108

Exclusive deal right now with Atomos and DJI


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If this is the case we may already forget about ProRes RAW.

He spoke about prores raw here

He spoke about prores raw here

You might want to relisten to what he says..

"" Raw in the same cinema DNG open file format used in the larger cameras, as well as doing a uncompressed raw, we also offer compressed raw options that you are familiar with at the other cameras. And that is 12 bit. Ofcoarse we also offer a 10 bit proress compressed format so many similarities between the new pocket camera 4K and the other BMD cameras.""

That sound like the 3:1 4:1 and uncompressed raw we already have (just with a choice now)
and the existing Prores 422 flavors.
Nothing about ProRes raw at a later point

John Paines, the video Linell posted is the one I was too lazy to post yesterday! It was a very hectic day until 9 pm.


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