Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 1:31 pm

Oh, I missed one

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Kim Janson

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 3:56 pm

Maybe I am an idiot, as I can just smile after reading the couple of last pages :D
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 4:48 pm

Me too Kim. :roll:

The issue with using BM’s excellent EVF with a HDMI on the new Pocket (or any HDMI only camera) is you need a SDI/HDMI Converter (another box with power needs). On the up side, the Wooden Camera mod kit makes the EVF nice and compact. It would be grand, if BM makes a HDMI, 7.2 VDC version of their EVF.
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Christopher Dobey

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 5:01 pm

Thank you thank BM for adding RAW stills! Yes we've always been able to pick out a RAW frames from hundreds but this is so much more efficient :)
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rick.lang

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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 9:55 pm

Craig, finally looked at the RedShark interview you posted where Grant discusses ProRes raw at about 6:36 into the video. Grant makes the point that ProRes raw is missing the colour science that BMD includes in their cameras and in Resolve.

Difficult to judge the “problem” until we can actually work with ProRes raw in concert with Resolve, but I think he’s glossing over a potential benefit of what ProRes raw HQ is about and that is it appears to be applying efficient ProRes compression algorithms to a single channel of presumably lossless 12bit raw data... with the missing colour science applied by the post production software according to the particular camera profile that generated the ProRes raw HQ file.

Yes we have lossless compression on CinemaDNG and we have lossy but ‘visually lossless’ compression with CDNG 3:1 and 4:1 raw that matches the space savings of ProRes raw, but at this point I’m thinking the detail of ProRes raw HQ will match the detail of uncompressed CDNG raw at a considerable savings in space.

I may be missing his argument so apologies if I’ve misinterpreted Grant. The important takeaway for me is that BMD will be considering ProRes raw/HQ where all these things will be discussed and balanced.

And I still wonder if a ProRes XQ will emerge from Apple and what will it mean if ProRes raw HQ is already 12bit raw. Is that waiting for 14bit sensor data or 14bit log data?


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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 10:00 pm

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Craig Marshall

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 10:16 pm

Tristan Pemberton wrote:
Craig Marshall wrote:
Grant says is relation to the BMD philosophy: "I want to free them from the big old Post houses where the guy that ran it was Psychopath who's only claim to fame was a big bank loan!"

Crikey, I hope he's not talking about me! HaHa!

I'm sure he's not talking about JUST you :)

I probably was that guy back in the '90s. I had a cameraman resign in frustration after he kept bringing back field tapes with no TC and I threatened to dock his wages for Timecode re-stripe VTR time.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 4:04 am

Rick. I saw that interview, and I was wondering if they could build BM colour science in (now besides in a companion file) ProRes. However, it is moot, because they already have an effective raw format.

However, there a few exceptions where it might come in handy. If ProRes raw requires less space and produces less heat. It could allow the old pocket to run at higher speeds. It could maybe (don't know if possible) allow the micro studio to do raw (even HDMI has data channels hidden in it).

I do hope they introduce a micro s16 4k in the upcoming cinema shows. The latest s16 sensors are a lot better. I knew the pocket was unlikely to be released with such a better s16 given the broadcast wasn't using a one.
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 5:14 am

I think it could be a year from now before we are confident that ProRes raw/HQ is going to be an ubiquitous standard for acquisition. With my limited understanding, it sounds good. And if I could, I’d love to test it against CinemaDNG on that 4.6K sensor under a plethora of variables to see how it compares with our three flavours of raw.


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Chris Chiasson

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 12:39 am

Do we know if we can upload footage straight from the camera using the USB C port? Or can we only use it for power, and recording footage to an SSD?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 2:10 am

No, BM cameras do not upload files using the USB connection from the camera. You need a CFast or SD card reader.
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Adriano Oliveira

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 2:21 am

Thank you, BM. Just thank you.
You guys did it again.
Not in my wildest dreams I would imagine a BMPCC 4k.

Please:

1. release it as soon as possible. One is mine.
2. no cheap foggy IR Cut sensor glass this time... I've already replaced mine twice in my Pocket.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 2:38 am

Today i grab online few raw samples from GH5s, convert them to DNG and put to Resolve. Just want to compare same sensor camera as Pocket 4k to BMMCC DNG RAW footage.

1. I can see moire aliasing in GH5s but it is way less visible as in BMMCC RAW.
2. Noise in recovered shadows have very ugly and "digital" look. Feels like jpeg low bit depth noise with posterized effect. Nothing close to film grain look.
3. Seems i can't see FPN but there lot of hot pixel dots in recovered shadows.
4. Dynamic range looks less than in BMMCC.
5. I can see Cross Hatching pattern effect :) (probably it is some kind of DNG-Debayer-Resolve related problem, not a specific camera or sensor related problem)

Probably BM may tune sensor better than in GH5s, but i am not optimistic to expect same magic filmic image quality as from cameras with BAE/Fairchild Imaging sensors (BMCC, BMPCC, BMMCC, UM4.6K).
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Jason R. Johnston

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 4:37 am

The spec on the Pocket 4K looks fantastic on paper. The only thing I’m not completely in love with is the sensor not being Super 35, but that’s such a tiny quibble. Everything else is superb, especially looking at it from the perspective of someone wanting to graduate from DSLR. It could be argued the Pocket 4K is the camera the original BMCC should have been, except that camera would have been 2.5K in 2013. I’m sure the image quality of this camera will be absolutely sublime; at least on par with the BMCC or the BMPCC. If it’s more like Ursa Mini Pro, that’d be huge, too. I might just have to buy one of these for myself end of the year! I can see Poxket 4K being used for quite a lot of projects including stills, especially if it communicates well with Canon L glass.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 6:39 am

Jason R. Johnston wrote:The spec on the Pocket 4K looks fantastic on paper. The only thing I’m not completely in love with is the sensor not being Super 35, but that’s such a tiny quibble.


Micro 4/3 is the right choice for this kind of camera due to the heat created by the sensor. That plus the smaller micro 4/3 glass makes this camera much smaller for gimbal/drone use too. If you want larger format, if you add speedboster Ultra it's pretty much micro 4/3 and if you add the speedbooster XL it becomes the largest format Blackmagic camera of them all.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 6:43 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Today i grab online few raw samples from GH5s, convert them to DNG and put to Resolve. Just want to compare same sensor camera as Pocket 4k to BMMCC DNG RAW footage.

1. I can see moire aliasing in GH5s but it is way less visible as in BMMCC RAW.
2. Noise in recovered shadows have very ugly and "digital" look. Feels like jpeg low bit depth noise with posterized effect. Nothing close to film grain look.
3. Seems i can't see FPN but there lot of hot pixel dots in recovered shadows.
4. Dynamic range looks less than in BMMCC.
5. I can see Cross Hatching pattern effect :) (probably it is some kind of DNG-Debayer-Resolve related problem, not a specific camera or sensor related problem)

Probably BM may tune sensor better than in GH5s, but i am not optimistic to expect same magic filmic image quality as from cameras with BAE/Fairchild Imaging sensors (BMCC, BMPCC, BMMCC, UM4.6K).


I don't know but my biggest complaint with the 4.6K/Pro is the grain. I find there is a vertical clumping which gives away right away that it is an UMP shot. The famous test between the Alexa/Ursa Mini showing the skin tones and color instantly gives away which one is the Ursa Mini due to the vertical noise you can see on one the collars of the womans shirt.

From the still that was posted to EOSHD it's difficult to judge but the 6400 iso noise did look very nice, better than the Ursa Mini but that is only a still and and not motion so much more difficult to tell. Cooling also plays a big part in the noise of the sensor too and hopefully the non-weather sealed design helps with this.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 1:56 pm

People talk about ProRes, and I was out looking for a cineform, or vc-5 version of it, encoder for Android camera, and it occurred to me. Isn't there a ProRes encoder for Android, or iOS at least? I couldn't find one, how come? That would be a great place for ProRes raw.
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MarcusWolschon

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 1:59 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:People talk about ProRes, and I was out looking for a cineform, or vc-5 version of it, encoder for Android camera, and it occurred to me. Isn't there a ProRes encoder for Android, or iOS at least? I couldn't find one, how come? That would be a great place for ProRes raw.


You have to license it from Apple, get your implementation certified and you'd end up with no hardware encoding support because the Android Media Framework can not support you in any meaningful way.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 2:06 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:
Dmitry Shijan wrote:Today i grab online few raw samples from GH5s, convert them to DNG and put to Resolve. Just want to compare same sensor camera as Pocket 4k to BMMCC DNG RAW footage.

1. I can see moire aliasing in GH5s but it is way less visible as in BMMCC RAW.
2. Noise in recovered shadows have very ugly and "digital" look. Feels like jpeg low bit depth noise with posterized effect. Nothing close to film grain look.
3. Seems i can't see FPN but there lot of hot pixel dots in recovered shadows.
4. Dynamic range looks less than in BMMCC.
5. I can see Cross Hatching pattern effect :) (probably it is some kind of DNG-Debayer-Resolve related problem, not a specific camera or sensor related problem)

Probably BM may tune sensor better than in GH5s, but i am not optimistic to expect same magic filmic image quality as from cameras with BAE/Fairchild Imaging sensors (BMCC, BMPCC, BMMCC, UM4.6K).


I don't know but my biggest complaint with the 4.6K/Pro is the grain. I find there is a vertical clumping which gives away right away that it is an UMP shot. The famous test between the Alexa/Ursa Mini showing the skin tones and color instantly gives away which one is the Ursa Mini due to the vertical noise you can see on one the collars of the womans shirt.

From the still that was posted to EOSHD it's difficult to judge but the 6400 iso noise did look very nice, better than the Ursa Mini but that is only a still and and not motion so much more difficult to tell. Cooling also plays a big part in the noise of the sensor too and hopefully the non-weather sealed design helps with this.


We used to get this with pocket cameras when manufacturers tried to push performance.
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 4:33 pm

As Savannah’s pointed out in a recent post, the 18.96mm in the BMPCC4K combined with even a modest 0.71x focal reducer provides the field of view of a 26.7mm sensor. That beats the FOV of BMD’s 25.344mm 4.6K sensor.

Going with the feasible 0.64x focal reducer and you effectively have a sensor with a horizontal dimension of 29.625mm. The only thing wider on the 4.6K sensor is the 3K anamorphic mode with a 2x anamorphic squeeze that results in the FOV of a 33.79mm sensor width.

Of course if you want to shoot with anamorphic lenses, there are very good options available with the MFT mount including the SLR Magic 2x Anamorphot primes. Then your modest BMPCC4K gets you to a Vistavision-like 37.92mm sensor. MFT rocks!


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Sean van Berlo

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 4:50 pm

Damn, this camera looks interesting! Might be the first Blackmagic Camera (I'm in love with the Ursa's) I don't rent but actually shill the cash out for next to my Sony gear. The only thing I really miss is Prores 444, but I guess the encoding would be too much for the camera. Would I be correct in saying this camera should have a similar image quality at those datarates as the original URSA had? (128 MB/s vs 180MB/s for Cinemaraw 3:1 if I remember correctly) Because that would be heart-stopping at this price.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 5:44 pm

Denny Smith wrote:No, BM cameras do not upload files using the USB connection from the camera. You need a CFast or SD card reader.
Cheers


Actually, the spec say:
Computer Interface
USB Type-C for external drive recording, software updates and media download.
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Tommaso Alvisi

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 5:58 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Today i grab online few raw samples from GH5s, convert them to DNG and put to Resolve. Just want to compare same sensor camera as Pocket 4k to BMMCC DNG RAW footage.

1. I can see moire aliasing in GH5s but it is way less visible as in BMMCC RAW.
2. Noise in recovered shadows have very ugly and "digital" look. Feels like jpeg low bit depth noise with posterized effect. Nothing close to film grain look.
3. Seems i can't see FPN but there lot of hot pixel dots in recovered shadows.
4. Dynamic range looks less than in BMMCC.
5. I can see Cross Hatching pattern effect :) (probably it is some kind of DNG-Debayer-Resolve related problem, not a specific camera or sensor related problem)

Probably BM may tune sensor better than in GH5s, but i am not optimistic to expect same magic filmic image quality as from cameras with BAE/Fairchild Imaging sensors (BMCC, BMPCC, BMMCC, UM4.6K).


yep!
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 6:13 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Probably BM may tune sensor better than in GH5s, but i am not optimistic to expect same magic filmic image quality as from cameras with BAE/Fairchild Imaging sensors (BMCC, BMPCC, BMMCC, UM4.6K).

I would hope that long before BM put the effort into engineering a new camera based on a specific sensor, that they would have hooked the sensor up on the bench and did some basic image tests to see if the camera will meet BM's standards. And that all throughout engineering, those tests would have been run continuously against the current version. Sort of a TDD for camera development. And if that were the case I would expect to see some sample video, because they would have plenty of it and could make it at will.

So where is it?

The fact BM hasn't shown us any sample video is very troubling, especially for a camera that is ready for production.
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Johan Cramer

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 6:22 pm

We could already look at Raw stills pictures from the GH5s and evaluate them. The CinemaDNGs from the Pocket 4K shouldn't differ too much since they come from the same sensor.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 6:28 pm

I don't think BM "raw" is exactly the same as a raw sensor capture. If that were the case then the "raw" output from the current BMPCC would give me the same image quality in Premier as it does in Resolve. But it doesn't. There is a very noticeable difference.
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Johan Cramer

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 6:31 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:I don't think BM "raw" is exactly the same as a raw sensor capture. If that were the case then the "raw" output from the current BMPCC would give me the same image quality in Premier as it does in Resolve. But it doesn't. There is a very noticeable difference.

That purely has to do with the built-in optimizations for BMPCC raw in Resolve vs. the lack of those optimizations in Adobe Camera Raw. (But that goes for any camera.)
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 6:45 pm

Johan, I think it is more than that. I don't know if you've seen the difference yourself, but it is a huge difference in sharpness. BM has spoken many times that one of the key differences between their raw and Adobe Prores RAW is BM bakes their color science into their CinemaDNGs. I have no idea how that changes the structure of the data, but it is far more than a raw Bayer sensor dump.
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Sean van Berlo

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 6:52 pm

We'll see footage soon enough. Blackmagic has developed a reputation for very filmic looking sensors, I honestly expect no different at this point. The trick is their color science, not purely the sensor behind it. They went from CCD to CMOS and retained the unique look of their cameras after all.
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Johan Cramer

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 7:22 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Johan, I think it is more than that. I don't know if you've seen the difference yourself, but it is a huge difference in sharpness. BM has spoken many times that one of the key differences between their raw and Adobe Prores RAW is BM bakes their color science into their CinemaDNGs. I have no idea how that changes the structure of the data, but it is far more than a raw Bayer sensor dump.

No Raw image that cameras record today (whether stills or video) is a raw Bayer sensor dump. The DNG standards (but also vendor-proprietary raw formats such as Sony's ARW, Panasonic's RW2 etc.) are all about that.
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Daniel Bănică

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 7:39 pm

Are we going to see a 48fps option in it?
As I shoot mainly 24fps that would be a good option for slow motion scenes.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 7:59 pm

Made an account a while ago to make a single post, just logged in again to say how extremely excited I am about this camera. As an upgrade from the first generation Blackmagic Pocket it will be huge.

I'm a semi amateur who mainly do some recording of presentations and events, where viewers expect nothing higher than 1080p. However, the 4K will be enormously useful for reduced noise, better image quality when downsized, better grading and very flexible image recomposition. With 4K I can point the camera in the general direction of someone speaking, and cut out a very pleasing high quality crop, even switching back and forth between speakers. And recording over USB-C to a full-sized SSD will be a huge cost saving. Lens correction in Resolve Studio will be extremely useful.

Have put in an order for a good condition Sigma 18-35, now on the lookout for a speedbooster or smart adapter. Any word on whether the existing Metabones Canon ones are compatible with the active mount would be useful.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 8:21 pm

Johan Cramer wrote:No Raw image that cameras record today (whether stills or video) is a raw Bayer sensor dump. The DNG standards (but also vendor-proprietary raw formats such as Sony's ARW, Panasonic's RW2 etc.) are all about that.


Could you elaborate on that?
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 8:26 pm

Sean van Berlo wrote:We'll see footage soon enough. Blackmagic has developed a reputation for very filmic looking sensors, I honestly expect no different at this point. The trick is their color science, not purely the sensor behind it. They went from CCD to CMOS and retained the unique look of their cameras after all.


That filmic looking sensors are all about BAE/Fairchild Imaging sensors used in (BMCC, BMPCC, BMMCC, UM4.6K). Those are really unique sensors that use Dual Gain technology similar to sensors used in ARRI cameras.
http://www.arri.com/camera/alexa/techno ... as_sensor/
Code: Select all
The Dual Gain Architecture simultaneously provides two separate read-out paths from each pixel with different amplification. The first path contains the regular, highly amplified signal. The second path contains a signal with lower amplification, to capture the information that is clipped in the first path. Both paths feed into the camera's A/D converters, delivering a 14 bit image for each path. These images are then combined into a single 16 bit high dynamic range image. This method enhances low light performance and prevents the highlights from being clipped, thereby significantly extending the dynamic range of the image.


I might be wrong, but Sony dual ISO sensors are different technology than Dual Gain. Dual-native ISO mode feels more like fixed hardware switch between two native sensor ISO values for better low light shooting. It will not expand dynamic range.
As you can see here https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products ... cjk_e.html Sony sensors support Quad Bayer Coding HDR, but it is just an additional HDR more that produce motion artifacts same as any other similar HDR mode.

quote from Joshua Cadmium post:
Mathematically, though, there is only one way to measure DR from a sensor.
Both the Fairchild sensor in the original Pocket (CIS1910F) and the 4.6K Fairchild sensor (LTN4625A) are listed on their specs pages as having greater than 88dB. 88dB is over 14.5 stops of dynamic range (88 / 6.02 = 14.62).

Blackmagic list the original Pocket (and the Micro) at 13 stops, but list the 4.6K sensor at 15 stops.

Now, you could say that the 4.6K sensor has more DR in general, as it does push the noise into smaller pixels, given the same viewing area. However, if you were to take an HD crop of the 4.6K sensor and compare it to the Pocket, the DR may be the same. (I haven't tested or seen a comparison myself, though).

Mathematically, the sensor in it can do 14.6 stops.

The math is taking the 20log(10) of the Full Well Capacity (30,000 electrons) divided by the Read Noise (1.2 electrons).

So, for the sensor in the OG Pocket, it would be 20log(10)(30,000/1.2) which does work out to be about 88dB or 14.6 stops.

The Sony IMX294 sensor in that 2nd link I posted is listed as having a full well capacity at 400ISO of 63700e with about 7.41e read noise. At 2400ISO the read noise drops to 1.75e and then the full well also drops to about 14800. Looking at the math:

@400ISO=> 20log(10)(63700/7.41) = 78.7 dB or about 13.1 stops.
@2400ISO=> 20log(10)(14800/1.75) = 78.5 dB or about 13.0 stops.

So, I do think that there is going to be less dynamic range. That being said, the increase in resolution may make it so that the apparent dynamic range is greater.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 8:26 pm

MarcusWolschon wrote:
Could you elaborate on that?


It means it's not pure sensor dump as this would be probably useless without special math before debayering process.
It doesn't mean these formats are not RAW as much as they can be either.
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MarcusWolschon

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 8:58 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
MarcusWolschon wrote:
Could you elaborate on that?


It means it's not pure sensor dump as this would be probably useless without special math before debayering process.
It doesn't mean these formats are not RAW as much as they can be either.


Why not? That "special math" has always been needed for every raw processor out there.
The changelog of Adobe Lightroom is a good example for that.

Raw formats would hopefully contain ADC values, current camera settings and other metadata.
Then the raw processor - knowing this manufacturer's raw format -
can select the right function to turn the non-linear ADC response of each subpixel
into a linear intensity value including the interdependencies between nearby subpixels of other colors
and differences of these curves based on camera settings (such as ISO or sensor temperature)
or even image content (such as average image brightness, sensor saturation or blooming next to saturated pixels)
That conversion you called "special math" would be the so called "color science".

Why else does every raw processor for still cameras need to first get support for
a new camera model before the raw format of that camera can be interpreted?
Afterwards that raw processor can store these interpreted values in DNG = Digital Negative.
An open extension of the TIFF format capable or e.g. storing rgb bayer patterns.

It seems that "ProRes raw" is just an alternative to DNG that is not based on TIFF for individual images but on ProRes for series of images. Adding the ability of lossless (or lossy) compression of a series bayer patterns in the temporal domain and not just the spacial domain.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 9:18 pm

Yes, but I assume some math is "added" already in camera and probably it's the best if it stays this way as we don't really need RAW out of cameras to be even more RAW :)
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rick.lang

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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 10:32 pm

Sean van Berlo wrote:Damn, this camera looks interesting! Might be the first Blackmagic Camera (I'm in love with the Ursa's) I don't rent but actually shill the cash out for next to my Sony gear. The only thing I really miss is Prores 444, but I guess the encoding would be too much for the camera. Would I be correct in saying this camera should have a similar image quality at those datarates as the original URSA had? (128 MB/s vs 180MB/s for Cinemaraw 3:1 if I remember correctly) Because that would be heart-stopping at this price.


Not quite sure what you are asking but hopefully this will help.

ProRes 444 12bit 24 fps with 4096x2160 pixels has a target datarate of about 141 MB/s according to the Apple ProRes White Paper. ProRes 10bit is about 94 MB/s.

ProRes 422 HQ (the maximum that the BMPCC4K records) is about the same datarate as CinemaDNG 4:1.

The CinemaDNG 3:1 datarate is 128 MB/s DCI 4K and 4:1 is 96 MB/s according to the camera specs.




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Rick Lang
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 12:44 am

Johan Cramer wrote:
Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Johan, I think it is more than that. I don't know if you've seen the difference yourself, but it is a huge difference in sharpness. BM has spoken many times that one of the key differences between their raw and Adobe Prores RAW is BM bakes their color science into their CinemaDNGs. I have no idea how that changes the structure of the data, but it is far more than a raw Bayer sensor dump.

No Raw image that cameras record today (whether stills or video) is a raw Bayer sensor dump. The DNG standards (but also vendor-proprietary raw formats such as Sony's ARW, Panasonic's RW2 etc.) are all about that.


And that is my point Johan, you can't look at the sensor dump from another vendor and compare it to what BM does, because each vendor gets to add their particular value to the image.
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Que Thompson

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 1:18 am

Just want everyone to know.... :D
Attachments
F58221FF-6DA4-4D44-9E6E-C6C214586D84.jpeg
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 3:11 am

Que, very impressive. It is close-ish.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 5:32 am

No joke there's a post from february on the EOSHD forums where someone is talking about the Sony GH5s sensor. They say something along the lines of, "Blackmagic should stick one of these in one of their new cameras and make a Pocket 4k."

I can't find the post so that isn't precisely what the user said but it was scary accurate.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 5:40 am

Savannah Miller wrote:No joke there's a post from february on the EOSHD forums where someone is talking about the Sony GH5s sensor. They say something along the lines of, "Blackmagic should stick one of these in one of their new cameras and make a Pocket 4k."

I can't find the post so that isn't precisely what the user said but it was scary accurate.

You meant Panasonic GH5s. The upcoming Sony sensors are rad too.
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Sean van Berlo

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 5:49 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:
Sean van Berlo wrote:We'll see footage soon enough. Blackmagic has developed a reputation for very filmic looking sensors, I honestly expect no different at this point. The trick is their color science, not purely the sensor behind it. They went from CCD to CMOS and retained the unique look of their cameras after all.


That filmic looking sensors are all about BAE/Fairchild Imaging sensors used in (BMCC, BMPCC, BMMCC, UM4.6K). Those are really unique sensors that use Dual Gain technology similar to sensors used in ARRI cameras.
http://www.arri.com/camera/alexa/techno ... as_sensor/
Code: Select all
The Dual Gain Architecture simultaneously provides two separate read-out paths from each pixel with different amplification. The first path contains the regular, highly amplified signal. The second path contains a signal with lower amplification, to capture the information that is clipped in the first path. Both paths feed into the camera's A/D converters, delivering a 14 bit image for each path. These images are then combined into a single 16 bit high dynamic range image. This method enhances low light performance and prevents the highlights from being clipped, thereby significantly extending the dynamic range of the image.



But that presupposes that certain qualities most find 'filmic' about BMD cameras such as edge sharpness, color response and highlight rolloff, are inherent to the sensor. Testing by D.P. Steve Yedlin has indicated however that most if not all of these qualities are determined by the manufacturer's treatment of the sensor data. He has a great article (and associated videos with it that are mentioned at the top) here:

http://www.yedlin.net/OnColorScience/

Now of course there are inherent qualities to a sensor (noise, resolution, dynamic range), but these are actually of secondary importance to a lot of people as opposed to having a visually pleasing image right out of the gate. Hope that clarifies my position somewhat!

And thanks for the reply Rick, perhaps I lack some of the knowledge to accurately phrase my question - apologies for that. What I meant was, with datarates that match the URSA quite closely in RAW, the BMPCC4K should be able to output a similarly clean, detailed and grade-able image, right?

Ellory: the Panasonic sensor is made by Sony ;)
Last edited by Sean van Berlo on Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 5:50 am

Ellory Yu wrote:
Savannah Miller wrote:No joke there's a post from february on the EOSHD forums where someone is talking about the Sony GH5s sensor. They say something along the lines of, "Blackmagic should stick one of these in one of their new cameras and make a Pocket 4k."

I can't find the post so that isn't precisely what the user said but it was scary accurate.

You meant Panasonic GH5s. The upcoming Sony sensors are rad too.


Panasonic GH5s is a Sony sensor.
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MarcusWolschon

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 6:04 am

Savannah Miller wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:
Savannah Miller wrote:No joke there's a post from february on the EOSHD forums where someone is talking about the Sony GH5s sensor. They say something along the lines of, "Blackmagic should stick one of these in one of their new cameras and make a Pocket 4k."

I can't find the post so that isn't precisely what the user said but it was scary accurate.

You meant Panasonic GH5s. The upcoming Sony sensors are rad too.


Panasonic GH5s is a Sony sensor.


But not an upcoming one. It's already on the market and part of a sold product.
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MarcusWolschon

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 6:36 am

Sean van Berlo wrote:
But that presupposes that certain qualities most find 'filmic' about BMD cameras such as edge sharpness, color response and highlight rolloff, are inherent to the sensor. Testing by D.P. Steve Yedlin has indicated however that most if not all of these qualities are determined by the manufacturer's treatment of the sensor data. He has a great article (and associated videos with it that are mentioned at the top) here:

http://www.yedlin.net/OnColorScience/


Thanks for pointing us to that posting and author.
I learned a lot and it gave me the pointers about where to learn more.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 9:08 am

Que Thompson wrote:Just want everyone to know.... :D


Except the 4.6k (I presume the 96fps might have been related). But I think a lot of us guessed the latest SD card, beating the latest GH, in at least another pocket or bigger (stills shape without reflex mirror) at under $2k if they had any sense, 5 years ago.
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Que Thompson

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 5:47 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:
Que Thompson wrote:Just want everyone to know.... :D


Except the 4.6k (I presume the 96fps might have been related). But I think a lot of us guessed the latest SD card, beating the latest GH, in at least another pocket or bigger (stills shape without reflex mirror) at under $2k if they had any sense, 5 years ago.


I don't see any screenshots so I don't believe you. ;) I just having a little fun anyway.
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Pavel Lavrov

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 3:22 am

Let’s see how moire will look like on BMD sensor/glass stack....


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