Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

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Que Thompson

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 23, 2018 6:22 pm

John Paines wrote:Prores was good enough for last year's Best Picture Academy award, so it just might be good enough for wedding videos.


:lol: I agree. Also, I guarantee that the customer doesn't notice. A GH5, used properly, will WOW them. I think RAW is something that has taken on a life of it's own in this community. Ever since it's made it's way to the prosumer market there has been an obsession with it. Myself included. It's more for people like us who can actually see the difference (or think we can at least). If you can't tell without a side-by-side comparison, pixel peeping, etc. it's probably ok. I had to put my bmcc raw footage next to my t2i footage and point out differences to my wife a few years ago. To me, she's the average person. They don't care, they're watching the story.

That being said... I can't wait for my Pocket 4k. I think I'm going to shoot everything in either 3:1 or 4:1.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 23, 2018 7:22 pm

Sean van Berlo wrote:But Prores 444 is less compressed than both Raw 3:1 and 4:1, right?


Nope- it's compressed much more than that, almost 7:1.
ProRes444 XQ is 4.5:1.

You have to understand that RAW bayer data is a monochromatic image, eg:

Image

During debayering we convert (some pixels are interpolated as we have no real data for them) 1x monochromatic data to RGB channels. This causes debayered, final RGB data to be 3x (assuming same bit depth and full sampling) bigger than RAW. We can "loose" some of this "big" data by converting RGB to YUV, where we can sample UV (color info) every 2nd pixels horizontally (so we get 4:2:2) or on both axes, so we get 4:2:0. On top of this we apply compression- ProRes, etc. but even then we still have more data to compress than RAW. Y channel (this is as big as RAW) and at least 2 channels sampled every 2nd pixel in both axes, so this is another 0.5x of RAW data. This means 4:2:0 YUV data is still 1.5x bigger than RAW data (assuming same bit depth).
Compressing and recording RAW is much more efficient than doing the same on debayered data, so RAW recording is good in terms of efficiency (to get big frame size, fps and bit depth).
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:28 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostMon Apr 23, 2018 7:30 pm

Jim Giberti wrote:I'll ad that ProRes HQ is what we produce in day to day for broadcast and web delivery and it's robust and well beyond what's required for those mediums.
Everything else is incremental improvements, but with ProRes, you're already there for 95% of what's being done professionaly.


Yes, that is my take also. The new Pocket Camera 4K is looking better all the time.

But Raw has its advantages, depending on your work flow. How I would love a way to process a Raw f
I’ll as a monochrome and keep the total resolution.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 4:03 am

Hmn, yeah. Compare the raw ratios with a Raven. Some of that Red gear gets so high, I question it.

Re-edit:

It's like this visually lossless stuff. Visually lossless would include near lossless which 3:1 might be, and 4:1 is likely. But say on a codec like cineform non raw. You could do 10:1. That likely would have been regarded as in the range of visually lossless, but that doesn't mean 4:1 visually lossless is not way better. I would be reluctant to use anything above 6:1 on that sort of codec (different codecs have different ratios at which they hit these things) for something good. The more good, the closer to 2:1-3:1 I would want (which should be lossless it very close). To do visually lossless, one thing they do is they fudge the accuracy of pixels in a way that is hard to notice outrightly, to make them more compressible. But as you do this the contrast detail between pixels goes down and it gets more smudgy look. As John would put it, your picture IQ goes down. So, how they choose to degrade and limit this degregation will preserve more subconscious picture appeal. So, you might buy a video camera, and that video camera maybe set up for the skin of people in the market it was made for, to render people's skin better. That is one of the things you want to preserve. Their is a hierarchy of how people see to preserve. The shape of things, details, facial structure and details. These sorts of things. You want a certain level of look on skin, cloths around skin, or longer shots cloths, bushes and shapes of leaves blowing around, and preserving more detail where it's loss will be noticed more. So, on the face you might want 4:1-2:1, having that around the face 4:1-2:1, but another thing in a scene you might make them compressible 10:1, others things between 4:1-10:1. Now, you average compression from 4:1(extreme closeup to stop the face it dipping in quality too much)-6:1, some saving here and there, to give more preservation elsewhere. There is a variety of ways a manufacturer can set things up to preserve more important quality areas.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 4:26 am

Que.

I find it best to view the difference in terms of how it feels to them. People can subconsciously appreciate things they don't normally perceive on screen. Therefore visually lossless might not have the appeal of lossless (how you do visually lossless can help retain appeal). Pixel peeping shows you the issues of the image on a grander scale even though individually such things may normally be unoticed. So, pixel peeping a little issue occasionally may not harm too much, but a little issue throughout the image is likely going to degrade it. Ask you wife, which looks better, then why (trick question, because people respond more to higher contrast than resolution, but you don't go sit in theatres for hours watching contrasty images to relax. You say to your wife then, if she picks the lower quality contrasty image, ahh but they don't do relaxing films that way. If you put this on a really big screen and sit down the theatre, it will look more ugly, like if you looked at it really closely here).
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Que Thompson

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 5:01 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Que.

I find it best to view the difference in terms of how it feels to them. People can subconsciously appreciate things they don't normally perceive on screen. Therefore visually lossless might not have the appeal of lossless (how you do visually lossless can help retain appeal). Pixel peeping shows you the issues of the image on a grander scale even though individually such things may normally be unoticed. So, pixel peeping a little issue occasionally may not harm too much, but a little issue throughout the image is likely going to degrade it. Ask you wife, which looks better, then why (trick question, because people respond more to higher contrast than resolution, but you don't go sit in theatres for hours watching contrasty images to relax. You say to your wife then, if she picks the lower quality contrasty image, ahh but they don't do relaxing films that way. If you put this on a really big screen and sit down the theatre, it will look more ugly, like if you looked at it really closely here).


agreed. I do think there is a feel that comes across in higher quality, natural looking images. You kind of fall into the image. Which is why I’m so excited about the pocket 4k!


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Sean van Berlo

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 5:10 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Sean van Berlo wrote:But Prores 444 is less compressed than both Raw 3:1 and 4:1, right?


Nope- it's compressed much more than that, almost 7:1.
ProRes444 XQ is 4.5:1.

You have to understand that RAW bayer data is a monochromatic image, eg:

Image

During debayering we convert (some pixels are interpolated as we have no real data for them) 1x monochromatic data to RGB channels. This causes debayered, final RGB data to be 3x (assuming same bit depth and full sampling) bigger than RAW. We can "loose" some of this "big" data by converting RGB to YUV, where we can sample UV (color info) every 2nd pixels horizontally (so we get 4:2:2) or on both axes, so we get 4:2:0. On top of this we apply compression- ProRes, etc. but even then we still have more data to compress than RAW. Y channel (this is as big as RAW) and at least 2 channels sampled every 2nd pixel in both axes, so this is another 0.5x of RAW data. This means 4:2:0 YUV data is still 1.5x bigger than RAW data (assuming same bit depth).
Compressing and recording RAW is much more efficient than doing the same on debayered data, so RAW recording is good in terms of efficiency (to get big frame size, fps and both depth).


This was extremely interesting, thanks!
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 9:36 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Hmn, yeah. Compare the raw ratios with a Raven. Some of that Red gear gets so high, I question it.

Re-edit:

It's like this visually lossless stuff. Visually lossless would include near lossless which 3:1 might be, and 4:1 is likely. But say on a codec like cineform non raw. You could do 10:1. That likely would have been regarded as in the range of visually lossless, but that doesn't mean 4:1 visually lossless is not way better. I would be reluctant to use anything above 6:1 on that sort of codec (different codecs have different ratios at which they hit these things) for something good. The more good, the closer to 2:1-3:1 I would want (which should be lossless it very close). To do visually lossless, one thing they do is they fudge the accuracy of pixels in a way that is hard to notice outrightly, to make them more compressible. But as you do this the contrast detail between pixels goes down and it gets more smudgy look. As John would put it, your picture IQ goes down. So, how they choose to degrade and limit this degregation will preserve more subconscious picture appeal. So, you might buy a video camera, and that video camera maybe set up for the skin of people in the market it was made for, to render people's skin better. That is one of the things you want to preserve. Their is a hierarchy of how people see to preserve. The shape of things, details, facial structure and details. These sorts of things. You want a certain level of look on skin, cloths around skin, or longer shots cloths, bushes and shapes of leaves blowing around, and preserving more detail where it's loss will be noticed more. So, on the face you might want 4:1-2:1, having that around the face 4:1-2:1, but another thing in a scene you might make them compressible 10:1, others things between 4:1-10:1. Now, you average compression from 4:1(extreme closeup to stop the face it dipping in quality too much)-6:1, some saving here and there, to give more preservation elsewhere. There is a variety of ways a manufacturer can set things up to preserve more important quality areas.


I don't know if there is any study, but I assume you can treat RAW image the same as final debayered. If anything it may compress "better" as we know its nature (Bayer pattern, so we could optimise codec). Not 100% sure. Lower compression ration comes mainly from fact that RAW is treated as best possible recording, so we want it to be high quality. 3:1 is definitely really high quality.
RED has many quality levels (although they use I assume more efficient JPEG2000) and lot of people record 5:1, 7:1 etc. There is nothing what stops you record RAW as h264. How compressing RAW effects final debayered quality (compared to compressing final video) can be measured, so it's not that big mystery if one wishes to evaluate it.
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Kingsley Paul

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 10:55 am

Sean van Berlo wrote:
MarcusWolschon wrote:
Sean van Berlo wrote:They stated the camera can be charged via usb-c, but only while the camera is off unfortunately.
What's the source of that statement?


Interview with Grant at NAB where he said you could charge the camera while it's in your bag. I'm inferring from that, to be fair, that it doesn't charge while recording. The fact that it charges at all via USB-C is on Blackmagic's product page.


There was another video in which a BMD representative claimed that you can power the camera using USB C, It can be deduced that you can charge the batteries while it is powered on. How much extended time you get is something we have to wait for.
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Craig Seeman

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 11:07 am

As I understood it, you can charge by USB-C when camera is off but not charge the camera internal battery nor run the camera powered by USB-C.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 12:16 pm

Que Thompson wrote:
agreed. I do think there is a feel that comes across in higher quality, natural looking images. You kind of fall into the image. Which is why I’m so excited about the pocket 4k!

+1
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 12:31 pm

USB 3 was designed to take a lot more power than USB 2, but it could be that it's not enough for the camera. It's around 700gm so I'm interested in how much free space is in there myself. Unfortunately it is so big that adding a grip with hidden battery in it doesn't seem such an appealing idea. I was thinking, as it's slender, something like they had for the gh4, underneath. That setup did not look so nice on the gh4 because it looked too tall. But such a unit might make this camera look less thin (and provide space for usb 3 drives).
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MarcusWolschon

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 12:33 pm

It's 1.5x as wide as the huge GH3/GH4/GH4R/GH5/GH5s without added height.
So making it 1.5x as high with a battery grip (or a Tascam DR-701D) should not be an issue.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 1:03 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Hmn, yeah. Compare the raw ratios with a Raven. Some of that Red gear gets so high, I question it.

Re-edit:

It's like this visually lossless stuff. Visually lossless would include near lossless which 3:1 might be, and 4:1 is likely. But say on a codec like cineform non raw. You could do 10:1. That likely would have been regarded as in the range of visually lossless, but that doesn't mean 4:1 visually lossless is not way better. I would be reluctant to use anything above 6:1 on that sort of codec (different codecs have different ratios at which they hit these things) for something good. The more good, the closer to 2:1-3:1 I would want (which should be lossless it very close). To do visually lossless, one thing they do is they fudge the accuracy of pixels in a way that is hard to notice outrightly, to make them more compressible. But as you do this the contrast detail between pixels goes down and it gets more smudgy look. As John would put it, your picture IQ goes down. So, how they choose to degrade and limit this degregation will preserve more subconscious picture appeal. So, you might buy a video camera, and that video camera maybe set up for the skin of people in the market it was made for, to render people's skin better. That is one of the things you want to preserve. Their is a hierarchy of how people see to preserve. The shape of things, details, facial structure and details. These sorts of things. You want a certain level of look on skin, cloths around skin, or longer shots cloths, bushes and shapes of leaves blowing around, and preserving more detail where it's loss will be noticed more. So, on the face you might want 4:1-2:1, having that around the face 4:1-2:1, but another thing in a scene you might make them compressible 10:1, others things between 4:1-10:1. Now, you average compression from 4:1(extreme closeup to stop the face it dipping in quality too much)-6:1, some saving here and there, to give more preservation elsewhere. There is a variety of ways a manufacturer can set things up to preserve more important quality areas.


I don't know if there is any study, but I assume you can treat RAW image the same as final debayered. If anything it may compress "better" as we know its nature (Bayer pattern, so we could optimise codec). Not 100% sure. Lower compression ration comes mainly from fact that RAW is treated as best possible recording, so we want it to be high quality. 3:1 is definitely really high quality.
RED has many quality levels (although they use I assume more efficient JPEG2000) and lot of people record 5:1, 7:1 etc. There is nothing what stops you record RAW as h264. How compressing RAW effects final debayered quality (compared to compressing final video) can be measured, so it's not that big mystery if one wishes to evaluate it.


Andrew, I knew a guy. But my thoughts on this is that you might compress normal Bayer a bit more because the low pass filters on them normally spread the light so wide across neighbouring pixels it reduces the difference between neighbouring pixels like what lossy compression does to make images more compressible. In other words it's more compressible because the image is compromised. They do this to stop bad interpolation effects due to large gaps in the primary colours at each colour site. So, at each site you loose upto 2/3rds of the information, and have to hop pixels to get to the next red or blue etc. Spreading the light reduces this effect. Arri colour science uses the overlap in the performance curves of the primaries to work.things out to. Green overlaps a fair bit with red and blue. So some red and blue light signal comes through on the green pixels, and some green on the red and blue. It's all compromises. But the BM cinema cameras typically don't come with low pass filters, but rely instead on oversampling resolution. It shoots at a higher resolution then drops back the resolution, the misaligned pixel boundaries share data between neighbouring pixels reducing some artifacts. This works to a certain extent, but problems still occur.

Now, Raw Bayer provides quality as it's exactly what the sensor sees before processing and compression (before Raw started to be marketed as Bayer compressed). You then have good quality to start processing. But better raw is three+ color pixels schemes, usually using prisms that produce 4:4:4 RGB information per pixel which is then usually transformed into regular 4:4:4 for better compression etc. The foveon X3, and other manufacturers in research (Canon in product) uses a way to derive three or more colour information per pixel vertically without prisms and three separate sensors.

Unfortunately, three chip prism setups suffered a few issues and limitations on aperture size, and Bayer single chip was cheaper.

Do we even know if this camera uses Bayer, or one of the Sony color filter pattern schemes?
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 1:11 pm

MarcusWolschon wrote:It's 1.5x as wide as the huge GH3/GH4/GH4R/GH5/GH5s without added height.
So making it 1.5x as high with a battery grip (or a Tascam DR-701D) should not be an issue.


+1. Yeah, that sort of undercarriage. But for me even the gh5 is too much. I'd be happy with a uhd 50fps 12 bit+ the size of a thick smart phone with a mount (and wireless 4G audio level microphone setup). 4 inch is still usable for framing. But for other people the bulk is not such an issue.

This really makes you wonder, why not upgrade the old 4kp30 digital cinema camera years ago?
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TimSquires

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 2:22 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:I'd be happy with a uhd 50fps 12 bit+ the size of a thick smart phone with a mount


A happy RED Hydrogen customer?

(Hoping that no one from reduser sees any cynicism here...)
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 4:48 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Andrew, I knew a guy. But my thoughts on this is that you might compress normal Bayer a bit more because the low pass filters on them normally spread the light so wide across neighbouring pixels it reduces the difference between neighbouring pixels like what lossy compression does to make images more compressible. In other words it's more compressible because the image is compromised. They do this to stop bad interpolation effects due to large gaps in the primary colours at each colour site. So, at each site you loose upto 2/3rds of the information, and have to hop pixels to get to the next red or blue etc. Spreading the light reduces this effect. Arri colour science uses the overlap in the performance curves of the primaries to work.things out to. Green overlaps a fair bit with red and blue. So some red and blue light signal comes through on the green pixels, and some green on the red and blue. It's all compromises. But the BM cinema cameras typically don't come with low pass filters, but rely instead on oversampling resolution. It shoots at a higher resolution then drops back the resolution, the misaligned pixel boundaries share data between neighbouring pixels reducing some artifacts. This works to a certain extent, but problems still occur.

Now, Raw Bayer provides quality as it's exactly what the sensor sees before processing and compression (before Raw started to be marketed as Bayer compressed). You then have good quality to start processing. But better raw is three+ color pixels schemes, usually using prisms that produce 4:4:4 RGB information per pixel which is then usually transformed into regular 4:4:4 for better compression etc. The foveon X3, and other manufacturers in research (Canon in product) uses a way to derive three or more colour information per pixel vertically without prisms and three separate sensors.

Unfortunately, three chip prism setups suffered a few issues and limitations on aperture size, and Bayer single chip was cheaper.

Do we even know if this camera uses Bayer, or one of the Sony color filter pattern schemes?


Well, low pass filtering is a good thing as most real life processes don't have digital nature.
If you try to be very precise/digital (0,1) then things are not necessarily good (well- this is probably why so many people prefers film and analog audio).
My point is that compressing RAW in camera is good thing as it's less data to start with. When you look at it from storage/processing point it's pointless to expand it (debayer etc. ) and then compress. What happens with data at sensor level is another story :) Whatever trick ARRI is using it does work- their digital image is "nice".

I think it's Bayer pattern. With dcraw you can easily get RAW DNG pixels as normal TIFF and analyse them.
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Yue Shi Lai

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 25, 2018 12:18 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:My point is that compressing RAW in camera is good thing as it's less data to start with. When you look at it from storage/processing point it's pointless to expand it (debayer etc. ) and then compress. What happens with data at sensor level is another story :) Whatever trick ARRI is using it does work- their digital image is "nice".


There is no trick. ARRIRAW has no compression at all, not even lossless. Alexa open gate has 3414x2198 pixels, and at 12 bit/pixel, the uncompressed bit rate is 11.26 MB/frame, exactly the bit rate of open gate ARRIRAW. Unlike CinemaDNG, though, ARRIRAW is logarithmically quantized (and therefore with more than 12 stops dynamic range stored in the 12 bits).
Last edited by Yue Shi Lai on Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 25, 2018 12:24 am

During the filming of Altered Carbon they were pushing 7TB for a single day of shooting. And that was with 5K raw on the Alexa 65. Ridiculous.
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Greg Lee

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 25, 2018 3:34 am

Savannah Miller wrote:During the filming of Altered Carbon they were pushing 7TB for a single day of shooting. And that was with 5K raw on the Alexa 65. Ridiculous.


And the screenplays took up about 25 megabytes. ;)
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 25, 2018 8:23 am

Yue Shi Lai wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:My point is that compressing RAW in camera is good thing as it's less data to start with. When you look at it from storage/processing point it's pointless to expand it (debayer etc. ) and then compress. What happens with data at sensor level is another story :) Whatever trick ARRI is using it does work- their digital image is "nice".


There is no trick. ARRIRAW has no compression at all, not even lossless. Alexa open gate has 3414x2198 pixels, and at 12 bit/pixel, the uncompressed bit rate is 11.26 MB/frame, exactly the bit rate of open gate ARRIRAW. Unlike CinemaDNG, though, ARRIRAW is logarithmically quantized (and therefore with more than 12 stops dynamic range stored in the 12 bits).


I know Arri RAW is uncompressed (this is not the main reason for their quality though). I am talking about their 'trick' with sensor design/color science.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 25, 2018 8:28 am

Savannah Miller wrote:During the filming of Altered Carbon they were pushing 7TB for a single day of shooting. And that was with 5K raw on the Alexa 65. Ridiculous.


Is it that crazy size for movie with big budget?
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Kim Janson

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 25, 2018 8:48 am

Maybe not if considering the hard disk cost, even if they are using SSD raid arrays, but the data management is a nightmare. It takes a loooong time to transfer and make a backup of 7TB.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Savannah Miller wrote:During the filming of Altered Carbon they were pushing 7TB for a single day of shooting. And that was with 5K raw on the Alexa 65. Ridiculous.


Is it that crazy size for movie with big budget?
LeViteZer Smooths the movement, www.levitezer.com
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MarcusWolschon

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 25, 2018 8:53 am

Kim Janson wrote:Maybe not if considering the hard disk cost, even if they are using SSD raid arrays, but the data management is a nightmare. It takes a loooong time to transfer and make a backup of 7TB.


That's the job of the Digital Media Technician (and the role of recording proxies in parallel if it becomes a workflow-problem).
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 25, 2018 10:25 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Savannah Miller wrote:During the filming of Altered Carbon they were pushing 7TB for a single day of shooting. And that was with 5K raw on the Alexa 65. Ridiculous.


Is it that crazy size for movie with big budget?

A TB is not what it used to be, PB is just around the corner. I can remember when a 10MB drive was a big deal. When everything becomes data, everyone will collect a lot of it.
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CaptainHook

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 25, 2018 9:17 pm

Yue Shi Lai wrote:Unlike CinemaDNG, though, ARRIRAW is logarithmically quantized (and therefore with more than 12 stops dynamic range stored in the 12 bits).

CinemaDNG does support logarithmic encoding and we make use it of it for our cameras like the 4.6K, BMCC, Pocket, etc. Its why there is a linearization table in our DNG headers.
http://www.captainhook.co.nz/blackmagic-cinema-camera-lut/

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Yue Shi Lai

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 26, 2018 3:20 am

CinemaDNG does support logarithmic encoding and we make use it of it for our cameras like the 4.6K, BMCC, Pocket, etc. Its why there is a linearization table in our DNG headers.

Many thanks for the clarification. I seem to have overlooked this table so far. Plotting from the table...
bmd_linearization.png
bmd_linearization.png (15.79 KiB) Viewed 4301 times
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Preben Randhol

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 27, 2018 10:01 am

Que Thompson wrote:A GH5, used properly, will WOW them. .


Having looked at videos made with GH5 and GH5s online, I hope the BMPCC 4k keeps the cinematic look like the BMPCC. GH5 clips do not have this.
Last edited by Preben Randhol on Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John Paines

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 27, 2018 2:12 pm

Preben Randhol wrote:
Que Thompson wrote:
John Paines wrote:A GH5, used properly, will WOW them. .


Having looked at videos made with GH5 and GH5s online, I hope the BMPCC 4k keeps the cinematic look like the BMPCC. GH5 clips do not have this.


The formatting of your quote falsely attributes a high opinion of GH5/GH5s ("WOW") to me. I don't share that opinion. It's Que's, not mine.

Cheers, and here's to truth in advertising....
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 27, 2018 3:02 pm

Speaking of the GH5s -
Renowned camera tester Alan Roberts has released his EBU assessment of the Panasonic GH5s.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/04/27/panasonic-gh5s-ebu-assessment/
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 27, 2018 3:36 pm

What was it, 14.6 stops without kneeing?
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Preben Randhol

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 27, 2018 4:42 pm

John Paines wrote:
Preben Randhol wrote:
Having looked at videos made with GH5 and GH5s online, I hope the BMPCC 4k keeps the cinematic look like the BMPCC. GH5 clips do not have this.


The formatting of your quote falsely attributes a high opinion of GH5/GH5s ("WOW") to me. I don't share that opinion. It's Que's, not mine.

Cheers, and here's to truth in advertising....


Sorry, that was not my intention. Hard to get the quoting right on the mobile.
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Preben Randhol

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 27, 2018 11:08 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Speaking of the GH5s -
Renowned camera tester Alan Roberts has released his EBU assessment of the Panasonic GH5s.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/04/27/panasonic-gh5s-ebu-assessment/


Why does he say less than 1" sensor?
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Chris McMeekin

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 3:32 pm

Why do people keep comparing this to the GH5 and Sonys? The price comparison is completely stupid, as this cannot take stills. So saying this is cheaper is misleading.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 3:40 pm

Agreed, but what they are comparing is the dual ISO and similar sensor, shared by the cameras. The GH5S is the only other camera close to the new Pocket 4K, but they are entirely different cameras, designed for different markets, with some overlap between them.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 4:11 pm

Not to mention, Denny and Chris, there has been some speculation, both cameras along with the kinefinity Terra 4K, that they share the same sensor - https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/new_pro/may_2017/imx294cjk_e.html.
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cabraldemello

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 6:50 pm

Is there a portable (cheap/not pricy) battery system suitable for steadycam that works for BMPC4K and would also work well for the 4K Pocket Camera?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 7:48 pm

Yes Gene, same Sony Sensor, which is what I called “similar” to be safe, since this has not been officially confirmed
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Dane Stewart

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 3:44 am

cabraldemello wrote:Is there a portable (cheap/not pricy) battery system suitable for steadycam that works for BMPC4K and would also work well for the 4K Pocket Camera?


Yes. I would consider the JuiceBox Magic Power battery fitting that description.
It is smaller and lighter than any V-Mount battery but will power a BMPCC for about 8-hours and a BMCC for about 5 hours.
The draw of the BMPC4k and the new 4K Pocket should be in the neighborhood of 4-6 hours from one of these. They cost right around $100 and you can get them straight from www.Juicebox.direct
Cameras: Panasonic GH2 (x2), Sony RX100 ii, Canon 6D, Canon T2i, Blackmagic Cinema Camera, Blackmagic Pocket Camera (x3), Sansung NX1
Mics: Sennheiser, AKG, Shure, Sanken, Audio-Technica, Audix
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 4:17 am

Chris McMeekin wrote:Why do people keep comparing this to the GH5 and Sonys? The price comparison is completely stupid, as this cannot take stills. So saying this is cheaper is misleading.


It takes stills around 24-240 times a second in seperate files.
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Kim Janson

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 10:14 am

I think the Pocket4k looses as still camera to almost any other camera, except maybe if one wants to take the stils form the 4k video.

The Sonys and GH5 etc probaly have better focusing too and many more features than the Pocket4k. The Pocket4k is focused to the esential features for professional video work, at very low price.

Comparing them, why not, but it much depends for what it will be used, otherwise the comparation is meaningless. They are very different cameras. I think many Vloggers that care about the video and audio quality might find Pocket4k the best tool for them.
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Pavel Lavrov

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 2:52 pm

Im still trying to figure out why there was such a rush to push Pocket 4K out so early in development. All we got right now is a lot of tech specs on a paper and no footage to back it up. Yes BD has preproduction models, but they won’t start shipping for another year. It would be perfect to announce and ship it next NAB show...

Really hoping they’re not cutting corners and get good product out, as promised.


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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 2:52 pm

Frankly, without still features its much less desirable. Why not have a step record, touch button save a frame marked still. Touch a button during record flag the frame as desirable for stills. Get resolve to track down these frame "points" so you can extract frames around it as stills. Hold button for bursts. See, its not too difficult. If people want the camera to setup their stills for them, they might have to wait. I'm happy to have simple focus and a focus control/ring. I think others using this can get by too.

This camera is a bit on the low end for me. I'd rather buy a better camera, but nothing is available. Plus zcam didn't do it's $699 4k c1r raw cinema camera, or a 4kp50 version of their old 4kp30 $599 non raw version. I want more than 12 bits for 12 bit hdr delivery, best HDMI or TB, and WiFi, twin TB or USB, and more dynamic range. 120fps 4k, and half the size. This is like the camera I really wanted 4-6 years ago (remember the original 4k cinema camera which didn't do 4kp50). 4.5k+ plus too. I upgrade what spec I'm looking for as time goes by. Most of the above is there for practical reasons. Dual usb3 allows you to stripe for higher data rates, hit swap between drives, run something off the second port. TB also allows higher speed off camera recording and to replace the HDMI and long haul optical cabling on set. More dynamic range and bits allow you to do more, and 4kp120 allows you to do slow motion, and setup for 3D. 4.5k+ allows you to mitigate some aliasing and moire issues.

I actually was watching some news footage tonight from a camera without low pass filter. Horrible crawling backgrounds. I don't want to see that again. This camera means I might have to drop resolution to get rid of it, or buy a low pass filter. There is hundreds of dollars extra and deciding when to swap it in or out.

If Sigma doesn't introduce a x3 camera, I might not have choices. Zcam really needs to drop their e2 price in half, but they have other richer markets in mind. Just the inclusion of the Nvidia intelligent vision AI is enough to get the camera used in intelligent vision development circles. That could be thousands to tens of thousands of sales. On the factory floor too, even in science. The sort of thing I suggested BM could have done, could have radically shifted costs and lowered heat build up at higher frame and data rates, programmed in high quality raw (and if a sigma chip 4:4:4 native).
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 3:01 pm

Pavel. They wanted to hold people over. I think they are aiming for a big release at a later show, and maybe even wanted it to be ready for nab this year. Things slip, and sometimes parts you want get delayed. Even if it has the sensor of the gh5s, that camera could have been lined up earlier to get them.

Still hoping for a latest sensor micro 4kp50 12 bit plus version when the pocket comes out.
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 3:24 pm

I’m lost. The Pocket 4K takes single still images in either open gate or the window.


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Kim Janson

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 4:18 pm

I understood too that it takes stils, but due the resolution and I assume focus, I do not think it will be interesting still camera.

What gets me a bit lost is that BMD releases a camera with specs like Poket4k has at the price it has and people want more at lower price. Sure you can have that, in 5 years.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 4:49 pm

Also Pavel Sept. is only five months out, not a year away. Announcing now, which Panasonic also did with the EVA1 last year, builds its market up and let’s poten users/buyers what is coming up very quickly. Broadcast users get what is available at a price they are willing to pay, not much per-planning. Cinematographers usually plan ahead and are more interested pushing the boundaries of what can be done in a Camera.

So BM saying we have this “great new” camera coming down the pipeline and this is what it will do, is not being unreasonable, giving everyone a heads up on what is coming out soon.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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rick.lang

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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 8:37 pm

Watched a lot of videos from NAB 2018 that repeated the 5” monitor is the same as the “URSA Mini (4.6K)”. The web site describes it as super bright or some other meaningless phrase and BMD has defined the screen nits. If it’s truly the same as what I have on the URSA Mini 4.6K, that will be disappointing since my screen can be unusable in bright light although it will be perfect otherwise. I don’t want to rig this ‘pocket’ camera much so I’m resisting adding that incredible SmallHD 703 for example that actually is brighter than any daylight.

That would mean that the URSA Mini 4.6K with BMVF would always be the default choice for very bright exteriors. And the Pocket 4K would always be the default for all low light situations. In between, either camera may do depending upon the situation.

I have this nightmare that within a year of buying the Pocket 4K, there will be a Mark II with a 1500 nit screen and a neat add-on to integrate a TB SSD that includes a larger battery so the camera can easily run for two hours. With DNxHR and ProRes raw. $1,495. Oh well at least I can console myself that I can put those superb SLR Magic ND 82mm screw-on filters to good use on the Pocket 4K.

I’m not good at predicting these things so in reality it might have internal ND filtration too!
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Jim Giberti

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 9:21 pm

Denny Smith wrote:I’m not good at predicting these things so in reality it might have internal ND filtration too!


I seem to remember from the B&H Q&A that was posted that BM stated that there is some ND filtration and that you may want to add more.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 11:29 pm

rick.lang wrote:I have this nightmare that within a year of buying the Pocket 4K, there will be a Mark II with a 1500 nit screen and a neat add-on to integrate a TB SSD that includes a larger battery so the camera can easily run for two hours. With DNxHR and ProRes raw. $1,495. Oh well at least I can console myself that I can put those superb SLR Magic ND 82mm screw-on filters to good use on the Pocket 4K.

I’m not good at predicting these things so in reality it might have internal ND filtration too!


Sounds good, but I would predict that the next camera from BM will be full frame.
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