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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:03 pm
by Gene Kochanowsky
30265358_10155176035460426_8350629266353815552_n.jpg
Care of Phillip Bloom
30265358_10155176035460426_8350629266353815552_n.jpg (63.1 KiB) Viewed 16607 times

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:34 pm
by Wayne Steven
Where the crowd?

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:38 pm
by Gene Kochanowsky
I know. I hope it's not a hoax or a costly prank. That BM is announcing the camera and that it is shipping now. It would be validation that we are seeing a new BM.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:16 am
by Wayne Steven
I'm worried about the sensor. The old one used in the microstudio has been updated before, and the latest series is better. But, it seems unlikely they would use an older in the broadcast than a pocket. But what is in the broadcast. They do 4.6k version for years too. Also, after all these years, a 4.6k version for better 4k delivery is also desirable.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:33 am
by Denny Smith
Wayne, Captain Hook has already ststrdmthr Broadcast Camera has the same sensor as the Micro Studio Camera, but with better cooling and a improved video,processor to push that sensor to its limit. Doubt very much they used this same sensor in the new Pocket 4K Camera. BM stated last year they were looking for a new 4K sensor for a Pocket 4K Cinema camera.
Cheers

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:38 am
by Gene Kochanowsky
Maybe it's a Sony sensor with BM color science and 4:2:2 [10bit and] 12 bit raw? Could be a game changer.
[Thanks to the editor of the internet for catching that for me.]

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:45 am
by Chris Chiasson
Man I hope that’s real.

Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:48 am
by rick.lang
Deleted.


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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:49 am
by rick.lang
(4:4:4) CinemaDNG 12 bit raw or ProRes raw/HQ? New camera so heck, why not a new codec?


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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:56 am
by Chris Chiasson
Depends on if it records on SD cards still, or Cfast cards. If SD Cards still, then problably ProRes RAW.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:02 am
by Timothy Cook
Now that we know it's here, and we are throwing around guesses...
Touch screen on the rear with UMP style menu?
And what is everyones guess on the battery?

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:10 am
by Anatoly Mashanov
Well, BMPCC4K means that either there exists a storage medium 4 times faster than BMPCC storage medium (Sandisk Extreme Pro 95 MB/s), or there is some algo for near-lossless compression of raw 4 times more efficient than current one, or the camera is PRORES only (no raw), or there is some H.264 or similar codec.

This also requires some advances in video processing DSPs. While I believe it's unlikely that BM moves from Spartan FPGA to some ASIC it's at least possible since at least Z Cam E1 used a purchased sensor and processor.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:14 am
by Chris Chiasson
Timothy Cook wrote:Now that we know it's here, and we are throwing around guesses...
Touch screen on the rear with UMP style menu?
And what is everyones guess on the battery?


Well, considering it’s still called a Pocket, the battery is gonna be a small one. I just hope it’s bigger then the Nikon ones, and lasts longer then 20 minutes.

And man I hope the screen flips out, the touch.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:03 am
by Gene Kochanowsky
I would be fine if it had all the quirks of the original pocket, poor audio, poor display, poor battery, no auto anything, but everything else the same except 4k. If it's the same price and the image quality is there, I'll order one in an instant.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:39 am
by MartinVidic
NICE!!!

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:16 am
by Dmitry Shijan

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:22 am
by Wayne Steven
Hey! How did I get over there with those glasses. I'm so confused.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:24 am
by Wayne Steven
Can you get a telephoto out and snap come of the darker areas of that poster please Dimitry?

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:27 am
by Dan Keeble
Chris Chiasson wrote:Depends on if it records on SD cards still, or Cfast cards. If SD Cards still, then problably ProRes RAW.

Wouldn't the data rate be too high? 8-)

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:45 am
by Dmitry Shijan
Wayne Steven wrote:Can you get a telephoto out and snap come of the darker areas of that poster please Dimitry?


I need reeeally long telephoto lens to see it from opposite side of the planet. It is not my video, i just grab link from YouTube :D

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:27 pm
by Dennis Sørensen
Anatoly Mashanov wrote:Well, BMPCC4K means that either there exists a storage medium 4 times faster than BMPCC storage medium (Sandisk Extreme Pro 95 MB/s), or there is some algo for near-lossless compression of raw 4 times more efficient than current one, or the camera is PRORES only (no raw), or there is some H.264 or similar codec.

This also requires some advances in video processing DSPs. While I believe it's unlikely that BM moves from Spartan FPGA to some ASIC it's at least possible since at least Z Cam E1 used a purchased sensor and processor.


Sony and others has released 300MB/s cards in SD format. And UHS-II maxes out at 312MB/s.. UHS-III goes to 624MB/s on SD.. but I don’t know of any UHS-III cards yet and therefore no interface for it.

But with the addition for ProRes RAW. This could easily be doable.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:34 pm
by Chris Chiasson
Dan Keeble wrote:
Chris Chiasson wrote:Depends on if it records on SD cards still, or Cfast cards. If SD Cards still, then problably ProRes RAW.

Wouldn't the data rate be too high? 8-)


Well, it sure isn’t recording to a 2.5 SSD, unless the Pocket name is just branding. And the original 1080p Raw formate ate 64gb SD cards big time, so they definitely aren’t using CinemaDNG Raw for 4K if it does support SD Cards. That’s why I’m assuming ProRes Raw, since it takes up half the space of DNG, and if the ProRes Raw paper is correct, half to a quarter of the datarate of DNG. Otherwise, Cfast cards.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:00 pm
by George E. Kennedy, Jr.
It’s all going to be okay Monday morning my friends.


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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:02 pm
by George E. Kennedy, Jr.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:20 pm
by Mapas Depique
With the new Prores RAW codec, it look really interesting !!! Damn, a sister to the most famous BM camera is on the way... Can't wait to see that ! For sure another game killer from BM if we know what they already did by the past.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:51 pm
by Wayne Steven
Dmitry Shijan wrote:I need reeeally long telephoto lens to see it from opposite side of the planet. It is not my video, i just grab link from YouTube :D


Lol, I sort of guessed that guy's name might not be Dmitry. I was going make a joke about how you got back so quickly if it wasn't you. :)

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:06 pm
by Linell Roy
If it's cfast cards I'm really gonna have to do some investing as I'm currently using SSD for my umini

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:07 pm
by Leon Benzakein
Dmitry

You do a really good American accent and you look just like the DSLR Shooter guy.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:20 pm
by carlomacchiavello
Many support producer develop 300mbits sd to support different cameras, first search born with gh5 with 400 intra 10bit 4:2:2.
I can record by va4k on San disk extreme sd 95mbits a uhd prores from sdi or hdmi.


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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:53 pm
by Steve Holmlund
We're running out of time for pure speculation. Someone guess at the price...

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:17 pm
by Donnell Henry
Price $1295

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:29 pm
by Denny Smith
Already stated elsewhere, $995 or $1295, sounds like two versions? :!:
Cheers

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:14 pm
by Gene Kochanowsky
So did anyone hear anything about the sensor size? S16 or MFT?

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:36 pm
by Que Thompson
If it doesn’t have 60fps (@4K) and at least decent lowlight (gh5) it’ll be a shame. However, I’m hopeful because I think BM knows that is the current bar for the pocket camera market.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:45 pm
by Donnell Henry
Denny Smith wrote:Already stated elsewhere, $995 or $1295, sounds like two versions? :!:
Cheers


I think the highest price they would ask is 1495

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:00 pm
by John Paines
I hope you're all wrong (about price). Anyone who's struggled with the Pocket isn't likely to want the same struggle with the new camera, only at 4K.

Good screen, EVF(?), better controls, minimum 90 minutes battery life, bigger body as needed? All that costs money.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:23 pm
by Dan Keeble
We're gonna need bigger pockets. Image

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:33 pm
by Denny Smith
Dan, Photobucket does not work here, you need to post the image directly.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:09 pm
by Gene Kochanowsky
That old Blackmagic has me in it's spell...

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:29 pm
by Brad Hurley
Dan Keeble wrote:We're gonna need bigger pockets.


Hopefully not much bigger wallets. ;)

I still am not fully convinced we're seeing real images and not "fake news," but it does sound like there have been independent confirmations from some reputable sources.

The good news for those of us who are happy sticking with HD is that there will be a ton of used original pocket cameras on the market at very good prices once this new one comes out. I might buy one as a backup!

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:01 pm
by Craig Marshall
John Paines wrote:I hope you're all wrong (about price). Anyone who's struggled with the Pocket isn't likely to want the same struggle with the new camera, only at 4K.

Good screen, EVF(?), better controls, minimum 90 minutes battery life, bigger body as needed? All that costs money.


Precisely and why I never bought the original. It was and is totally useless and a documentary film camera unless rigged to within an inch of it's life and that simply defeats the purpose of it in the first place. If this new camera is self contained, along the lines of the Digital Bolex with say, an EVF and 'universal' or MFT zoom lens mount, I would buy several even if they're priced around $3-4K. Odd as it may sound, not everybody shoots staged, dialogue driven drama.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:28 pm
by Johan Cramer
Craig Marshall wrote:[If this new camera is self contained, along the lines of the Digital Bolex with say, an EVF and 'universal' or MFT zoom lens mount,

The Pocket always had an active MFT mount on which MFT zoom lenses could be used without any problems, with lens stabilization being supported by the camera.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:36 pm
by Wayne Steven
Donnell Henry wrote:Price $1295


Too expensive. 4kp30 :( give it a break BM.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:39 pm
by Gene Kochanowsky
BM has had great success with the BMPCC, which AFAICT, was never intended for anything else but shooting narrative. Now maybe they will give it more documentary and run-n-gun features, but I don't think so. My guess is, it is intended for the same users that bought the original. Not a whole new group of users that don't really want to shoot in raw. There are plenty of entry level UHD cameras that serve those other markets. But there is nothing for cinema cameras that shoots raw with that resolution at that price point. And that is just the sort of market segment BM would go after. They like to change the game, not play the same old game.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:55 pm
by Craig Marshall
You're right. They're calling it a Cinema camera so it's not likely to be suitable out of the box for Doco use.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:07 pm
by John Paines
Pointless to argue over a camera which must already be in production, but it's hard to see how the BMPCC's operational shortcomings are particularly "cinematic" or well-suited to narrative work The best you can say is, you're prepared to work around its limitations or rig it at 20x its original size.

Not fixing the easy obvious stuff 5 years later would be a novel manufacturing strategy.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:13 pm
by Chris Chiasson
Dan Keeble wrote:We're gonna need bigger pockets. Image


Gonna assume this picture is fake till we see one where the quality is better. The quality of that picture shouldn't be that bad, considering people who use $5000 worth of equipment is going to that show.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:35 pm
by Yue Shi Lai
Dan Keeble wrote:We're gonna need bigger pockets. Image


Interestingly, that looks MFT (or Fujifilm X), the three recesses being in a "vertical" Y shape, as opposed to 30° rotated Y, like Canon EF and Nikon F, or upside-down Y like Sony E. And if MFT, there seems to be a Super 16mm sensor inside.

Now the Pocket/Micro Cinema's Fairchild CIS 1910 achieves its dynamic range with a 6.5 µm pixel pitch (basically what would have been a Super 35 sized 4K sensor, cropped to 2K), and 1.2 e- readout noise (modern Sony STARVIS is ~ 0.8 e- at high gain). Now the mystery is, how do you make a 4K Super 16mm sensor, with 1/4 the pixel size and full well capacity, and say 50% better SNR, not still 1.5/4 ~ -1.4 stops lower in dynamic range? Does this camera/sensor combine multiple EV (spatially, like Fujifilm SuperCCD SR, or temporally, like RED HDRx)?

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:36 pm
by Johan Cramer
Yue Shi Lai wrote:Now the Pocket/Micro Cinema's Fairchild CIS 1910 achieves its dynamic range with a 6.5 µm pixel pitch (basically what would have been a Super 35 sized 4K sensor, cropped to 2K), and 1.2 e- readout noise (modern Sony STARVIS is ~ 0.8 e- at high gain). Now the mystery is, how do you make a 4K Super 16mm sensor, with 1/4 the pixel size and full well capacity, and say 50% better SNR, not still 1.5/4 ~ -1.4 stops lower in dynamic range? Does this camera/sensor combine multiple EV (spatially, like Fujifilm SuperCCD SR, or temporally, like RED HDRx)?

For now, we have every reason to assume that the camera uses the 1" 4K sensor of the Micro Studio Camera.

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:02 am
by Ellory Yu
I hope it's an S35 with an active EF mount. S16 and MFT mount were great for the original but we are passed that S16 look, particularly with 4K. But really, most people buy a metabones SB just so that they can use their EF lenses on the original. Till Monday then.