BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

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rickyrubb

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BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 6:49 pm

I own a BMPCC with a MetaBones Speed Booster EF Adapter. Any idea if it will be usable on the BMPCC 4k??

Thanks

Rick
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Dominik Gehring

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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 6:51 pm

I don't see why it shouldn't. But my question is.. what happened to their credo only to announce products when they're ready to buy? lol i clicked that buy button before i even noticed that it was greyed out :lol:
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 6:56 pm

Because the product was finnished and he didn't want to deal another NAB keeping his lips sealed about a 4K version of the pocket cam..

And btw they also released a Atem Camera Control Panel in Februari that will be shipping mid to end summer... So not the first product this year that is longer up the timeline ;)
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 6:59 pm

I'm glad he did! Almost gone with kinefinity because of the small form factor. Loved the picture
of the ursaminipro but the bmpcc was always my favourite due to the small footprint.
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Steve Holmlund

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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 7:15 pm

If you recall, BMD use a "non-standard filter pack thickness" (Brian Caldwell's explanation to me) on the BMPCC sensor (compared to other MFT cameras) that led to the standard 0.71x Speed Boosters creating some softness if the attached lens was boosted to F1 or faster when attached to a BMPCC.

So the BMPCC-specific Speed Boosters addressed this issue, and I think also took advantage of the physical design of the BMPCC to reduce the crop factor further. (sorry, rough explanation, might not have this exactly right.)

So one question is does this "non-standard filter pack thickness" continue with the BMPCC 4K? Also, will there be any physical reasons why existing BMPCC-specific Speed Boosters won't work?

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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 7:16 pm

rickyrubb wrote:I own a BMPCC with a MetaBones Speed Booster EF Adapter. Any idea if it will be usable on the BMPCC 4k??

Thanks

Rick


Found this on the RedShark site.

https://www.redsharknews.com/production ... everything

"The MFT mount is retained so that your glass investment is maintained. This is a full size MFT CMOS however, so the existing Metabones Speedbooster that was designed for the original camera won't work on this one. No doubt a new one will be produced, with the added benefit that it will be much easier to find a wide angle lens."
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rickyrubb

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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 8:58 pm

Yup, you're right it won't work. dag nabbitt...

Thanks for the link.

r
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 9:00 pm

No, the current BMPCC (ver 1) Speed Boosters, which are designed for a S16 (1-inch) sensor are Not going to work on the larger MFT sensor used in the new Pocket Cinema Camera, which is 18 x 10 mm in size. At this point, the only SB that will work are the new Metabones MFT XL .(X.71) and Ultra (X.64, but only with Full Frame 35mm lenses, not APC-S lenses like the Sigma 18-35, which may vignette at wider focal lengths). This has been established by Speed Booster tests with the Panny GH5S, which is the same sensor being used in the new Pocket Camera.
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rick.lang

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BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostTue Apr 10, 2018 5:39 pm

Pretty sure Metabones will be creating a BMPCC4K specific Speed Booster as this camera might even outsell the original
BMPCC. I imagine their product will interface Canon EF lenses on the MFT BMPCC4K.

Don’t know if I could use my PL mount SLR Magic APO lenses, but might be possible with a PL-EF adapter since my lenses are manual.
Last edited by rick.lang on Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostTue Apr 10, 2018 6:11 pm

Rick, you can use the PL lenses directly using a PL MFT adapter mount, like the one SLR Magic or Wooden Camera make, both come with shims. As for EF Mount via a Speed Booster, do the SLR EF mounts replace the PL mount, or are they an adapter? If an adapter, stacking adapters can be problematic.
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rick.lang

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BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostWed Apr 11, 2018 11:56 am

You’re right as usual.

I do have the SLR Magic interchangeable EF mount so it’s just a matter of unscrewing the APO PL and screwing on the APO EF mount. Everything being passive has some advantages!

It would be very interesting shooting with the APO EF on a Speed Booster EF-MFT on the BMPCC4K. It would likely give me a nice Super 35 AOV depending upon the strength of the new MSB, with the great advantages that the BMPCC4K can have. A 0.71x would be fine and even 0.75x could work. Anything stronger a bonus.

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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostWed Apr 11, 2018 3:12 pm

Yes, that would work Rick, and a 0.71 SB will give you a S35 sensor size, similar to the Ursa Mini 4K.
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Brian Caldwell

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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 5:42 am

rick.lang wrote:Pretty sure Metabones will be creating a BMPCC4K specific Speed Booster as this camera might even outsell the original
BMPCC. I imagine their product will interface Canon EF lenses on the MFT BMOCC4K.

Don’t know if I could use my PL mount SLR Magic APO lenses, but might be possible with a PL-EF adapter since my lenses are manual.


BMPCC4K? Can we shorten it to P4K, or maybe 4KP?

There are already two M43-dedicated Speed Boosters - the 0.71x Ultra and the 0.64x XL - and I'm hoping there will not be a compelling reason to do a Blackmagic-specific version of either one. That's another way of saying that I hope Blackmagic did things correctly this time around by using a standard M43 filter pack thickness. Going more extreme than the XL (e.g. 0.63x or less) is a non-starter in my view because I couldn't maintain the desired image quality. Going less extreme than the Ultra (e.g. 0.72x or more) seems a bit pointless, since APS-C lenses work fine on M43 with the 0.71x Ultra.

Since HD is achieved by windowing, I suppose it might be reasonable to do a 0.58x or lower Speed Booster for HD only, but that would risk confusing a lot of customers since it wouldn't work on the full 4k format. Come to think of it, the existing 0.58x BMPCC Speed Booster could be used for such a purpose.
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 10:39 am

From what I understand the PCC4K has a sensor that is a bit larger than a supposedly standard MFT sensor. I've heard BM representative say that there are existing boosters that will work but that they expect an optimized booster to arise from the third party vendors.
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 6:10 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:From what I understand the PCC4K has a sensor that is a bit larger than a supposedly standard MFT sensor. I've heard BM representative say that there are existing boosters that will work but that they expect an optimized booster to arise from the third party vendors.


I believe Brian is the designer of the Metabones speedboosters, so it sounds like one important third party might not be on board yet.
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 6:11 pm

Thanks Brian for joining in, as always your input is greatly appreciated. How about PC4K, it seems to be catching on elsewhere. Yes, I also hope BM uses a normal sensor stack thickness in other MFT cameras.
The HD window is for 120fps, the camera normally does HD from full sensor, like the Micro Stuido 4K.
But using the BMPCC (original one) 0.58 SB on the window format is an interesting idea.

Gene, the new PC4K has the same size sensor as the GH5S, 18.86mm wide, as compared to a normal MFT sensor at 17.3mm, which is why the XL SB (0.64) doe not work with APC-S lenses on the wide end.

Steve, early days yet, too many unanswered questions on the new Pocket 4K, as Brian pointed out, the sensor stack thickness being the key here.
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 6:43 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Thanks Brian for joining in, as always your input is greatly appreciated. How about PC4K, it seems to be catching on elsewhere. Yes, I also hope BM uses a normal sensor stack thickness in other MFT cameras.
The HD window is for 120fps, the camera normally does HD from full sensor, like the Micro Stuido 4K.
But using the BMPCC (original one) 0.58 SB on the window format is an interesting idea.

Gene, the new PC4K has the same size sensor as the GH5S, 18.86mm wide, as compared to a normal MFT sensor at 17.3mm, which is why the XL SB (0.64) doe not work with APC-S lenses on the wide end.

Steve, early days yet, too many unanswered questions on the new Pocket 4K, as Brian pointed out, the sensor stack thickness being the key here.
Cheers


Yes, right Denny. What I should have said is that BMD could clarify the sensor stack thickness now. That would shed light on the compatibility of the XL and Ultra speedboosters.

Did not mean to imply I understood the issue completely or the thinking of developers.

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BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 8:38 pm

Great to hear from you on this one, Brian! The dimensions of the sensor are 18.96x10mm so that wider horizontal may be important to the discussion. 18.96/17.3 is almost a 10% increase.

Maybe time for a representative for BMD to chime in here on the thickness of the glass cover?

The HD window of the BMPCC4K is only 8.89mm horizontally which is a 1.4x crop of the BMPCC sensor at 12.48mm wide. Would that mean a 0.41x Speed Booster could be feasible? That would sure make for an impressive boost in aperture!

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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 10:16 pm

Rick, now you are dreaming.... :roll:
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 9:19 pm

rick.lang wrote:Great to hear from you on this one, Brian! The dimensions of the sensor are 18.96x10mm so that wider horizontal may be important to the discussion. 18.96/17.3 is almost a 10% increase.

Maybe time for a representative for BMD to chime in here on the thickness of the glass cover?

The HD window of the BMPCC4K is only 8.89mm horizontally which is a 1.4x crop of the BMPCC sensor at 12.48mm wide. Would that mean a 0.41x Speed Booster could be feasible? That would sure make for an impressive boost in aperture!

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Hi Rick:
Its the diagonal that matters, not the width. 18.96 x 10mm has a diagonal of 21.4mm compared to 21.6mm for normal M43, which measures 17.3 x 13mm. So, in my view the Blackmagic sensor is a little smaller than standard M43.

I wouldn't count on a 0.41x Speed Booster. For one thing it would exceed fundamental optical limits if you wanted to be fully compatible with f/1.2 lenses. However, it would be interesting to see if my 0.5x Devil's Speed Booster can be re-purposed, since the Pentax Q is a completely dead market.
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rick.lang

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BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 9:26 pm

Thanks for the feedback, Brian. Am I correct that a 0.5x focal reducer would let you add a full 2 stops so that a T4 lens would be exposed as if it was a T2 lens?

Then my SLR Magic APO T2.1 primes would appear to gather as much light as a T1.1 lens.

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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 4:19 am

rick.lang wrote:Thanks for the feedback, Brian. Am I correct that a 0.5x focal reducer would let you add a full 2 stops so that a T4 lens would be exposed as if it was a T2 lens?

Then my SLR Magic APO T2.1 primes would appear to gather as much light as a T1.1 lens.

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Yes, although the sensor may reduce that due to angle of incidence effects, depending on the camera. However, the Q666 Speed Booster is only available in Pentax Q mount. With an f/1.4 lens it gives f/0.7, and with an f/1.2 it is stopped down a little bit to f/0.666. Still, its the fastest lens speed currently available.
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 6:58 pm

Thanks, Brian. I’d be more than happy with my full frame APO T2.1 primes going to T1.1 on the Pocket4K. Just using base ISO 800 band, you get effectively ISO 3200 and using the base 3200 band, you get effectively ISO 12800. No problem with typical lowlight situations.


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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 7:27 pm

Brian Caldwell wrote:However, it would be interesting to see if my 0.5x Devil's Speed Booster can be re-purposed, since the Pentax Q is a completely dead market.

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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 3:22 pm

Brian,

Any plans on creating a PL to MFT Speedbooster or is this not even possible.

I just think that since this camera will be used for cinema applications, many people will be looking into cinema lenses which many are using a PL mount. Example being the SLR Magicc APO’s that were mentioned earlier. It seems silly to use a PL to EF adapter and then a EF to MFT Speedbooster.

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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostTue Sep 18, 2018 4:21 am

The current MFT Ultra and XL optical cells would work fine in a PL-to-MFT adapter. Metabones just needs to create the adapter shell for it.
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostTue Sep 18, 2018 4:32 am

Very good news!


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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostTue Sep 18, 2018 5:07 pm

Yes, but is Metabones working on a new PL Speed Booster for the MFT mount, or Z Mount, or?
Rick says the PL Speedbooster is at least a year out, if one is being developed.
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostWed Sep 19, 2018 12:08 am

Yes that’s what I would like to know before spending a ton of money on an adapter AND a speed booster.
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostFri Nov 09, 2018 4:06 pm

It seems that metabones had already created this PL to MFT speedbooster.

You can find it on B&H by searching "Metabones Speed Booster Ultra 0.71x Adapter for PL Lens to Micro Four Thirds Camera"

Only issue is that it was specifically created for the Zeiss CP lens lines.
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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostFri Nov 09, 2018 7:37 pm

“The mount surface to the optical element is around =15.7mm.”

I’ll have to look into this. It wasn’t on the site when I looked before making my earlier post. Good find but I need to measure the SLR Magic APO primes. Or has someone done that already?


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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostFri Nov 09, 2018 7:39 pm

Yes, it is not going to take a deep rear mounted lens element found on older Cine PL zooms and Primes.
It should work with any short rear element lens thst is the similar to the CP Primes, like the new SLR APO PL Primes.
Rick, you want to test this out? :roll:
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BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster Ultra XL X.64 Focusing

PostFri Nov 09, 2018 8:32 pm

Hello all,
Quick question. So I just received my metabones speedbooster Ultra XL (X.64) adapter for use with my BMPCC 4k and my Rokinon cine ds lens kit. My question is, with the 35mm, 24mm 14mm lenses I have the focus ring pulled all the way and I still cant seem to focus. I have the original bmpcc and speedbooster and I dont have a problem at all with those lenses. Am I doing something wrong or did I purchase the wrong speedbooster. Everywhere I read it said the MFT XL (X.71) was for apc-s lenses, which i dont have.
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rick.lang

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BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostFri Nov 09, 2018 8:33 pm

Adding the SpeedBooster Ultra and using the BMPCC4K to shoot UHD gives you about the same angle of view as the USA Mini 4.6K. 2.025x 0.71x = 1.438x crop! Except the SpeedBooster gives you a one stop brighter image with higher line pair definition.

I’m wondering what will happen when I add the 1.33x-65 Anamorphot Adapter... 1.438x 3 / 4 = 1.078x. Okay that works for UHD. For DCI 4K, 1.9x 0.71x 3 / 4 = 1.012x so that crop factor works too.

To summarize, you could be shooting with nearly ‘full frame’ angles of view with the combination of the BMPCC4K MFT and the SpeedBooster Ultra and a 1.33x Anamorphot Adapter. The SLR Magic APO T2.1 primes would effectively be sharper T1.5 primes.

With or without the 1.33x Anamorphot Adapter, having the Speedbooster Ultra PL-MFT, makes the BMPCC4K MFT a match for the URSA Mini 4.6K PL with a faster aperture... I need to sleep on this.

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rick.lang

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BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostFri Nov 09, 2018 9:08 pm

rick.lang wrote:“The mount surface to the optical element is around =15.7mm.”

I’ll have to look into this. It wasn’t on the site when I looked before making my earlier post. Good find but I need to measure the SLR Magic APO primes. Or has someone done that already?


The SLR Magic 25 and 85 extend about 15mm from the farthest point the PL Mount makes contact. The 50mm needs a thick black sleeve removed and that reveals an inner thinner black sleeve by which the rear element extends also about 15mm. So looks feasible with the SLRM primes. I have sent a message to verify the distance with SLRM Support.

Denny, if Metabones wants to send me a SpeedBooster Ultra PL-MFT, I’ll be happy to test it!


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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostFri Nov 09, 2018 10:06 pm

reginova8 wrote:Hello all,
Quick question. So I just received my metabones speedbooster Ultra XL (X.64) adapter for use with my BMPCC 4k and my Rokinon cine ds lens kit. My question is, with the 35mm, 24mm 14mm lenses I have the focus ring pulled all the way and I still cant seem to focus. I have the original bmpcc and speedbooster and I dont have a problem at all with those lenses. Am I doing something wrong or did I purchase the wrong speedbooster. Everywhere I read it said the MFT XL (X.71) was for apc-s lenses, which i dont have.


I assume you have the Rokinon Cine DS in EF mount. Is that correct? And I assume you have the SpeedBooster for BMPCC EF-MFT (0.58x) which worked well on the original Pocket.

Whether you have the XL or Ultra SpeedBooster, the lenses should focus.

Are the 14/24/35mm the only lenses you have or do you have other Rokinon Cine DS lenses that focus fine?

When you focus the lenses, does the front element extend or the rear element? I imagine it’s the front element so no issues there and that you are focusing manually.

Is there any chance that the new SpeedBooster is damaged?

Have you tried the old SpeedBooster for BMPCC on the BMPCC4K? It won’t display without a porthole, but inside the porthole, can you focus well?




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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostSat Nov 10, 2018 3:21 am

Hi Rick,
Yes I have the 85mm and 50mm lenses and they focus well on the x.64.... I am focusing manually and it just seems on the 35mm 24mm and 14mm that focusing is more difficult. I have tried the old speedbooster x.58 on the bmpcc 4k with the Rokinons and they all seem to focus fine. When Im at T 5.6 trying to get everything in focus with a wider lens it just seems impossible, however with those lenses if I am focusing on something closer to me it seems to be ok. maybe theres just a difference and I need to get used to it.

Reggie
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rick.lang

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BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostSat Nov 10, 2018 4:08 am

Are you familiar with the back focus adjustment on the SpeedBooster? I think somehow that has either moved or was not set correctly for your camera’s flange focal distance. It could possibly be the FFD of the BMPCC4K is not quite the same as the BMPCC. Try adjusting the back focus to get a good focus at infinity and see if it works for closer distances as well. May take a few attempts as tiny adjustments can throw off focus considerably.

Before you do that though you might try the Ultra on the old Pocket to see if it works very well there in terms of focus. If it focuses well before you touch the SpeedBooster back focus adjustment, then you know the two cameras have a slightly different FFD.

The back focus of the original Pocket’s SpeedBooster was likely set to match that camera since it was uniquely designed for that camera. The Ultra is not designed for the new BMPCC4K and it’s back focus likely has been set to match the actual FFD of a Panasonic GH4 for example.

There’s no real specification defining what to make the FFD for MFT camera mounts. The optical FFD value should be 19.25mm, but because the Mount isn’t rock solid, you’ll get manufacturers making some adjustments to work with your lens. But different weights of lenses might make tiny differences so there’s no perfect solution. Same logic applies to EF mounts.

As long as the new SpeedBooster hasn’t been physically damaged or misaligned, the back focus should do the trick. The first time I played with back focus, it took awhile to get the hang of it. But now if I can find infinity, I can focus on it and set back focus quickly. If you can’t find infinity, pick another distance you can measure, but witness marks aren’t reliable on your lenses so best to find infinity.

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rick.lang

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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostSat Nov 10, 2018 4:30 am

rick.lang wrote:
rick.lang wrote:“The mount surface to the optical element is around =15.7mm.”

I need to measure the SLR Magic APO primes...


...I have sent a message to verify the distance with SLRM Support...


I checked the distances with SLR Magic.
The APO PL lenses have a large black ring over the portion of the rear assembly that extends when focusing at infinity. The distance of the black ring to the PL mount flange on the lens is 14.26mm. That distance is the same for all the APO lenses. The actual extension on the new 32mm APO is 12.6mm and other lenses vary somewhat but are less than the black ring. So I’ll be good to go with the SpeedBooster... if only I had the budget!


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Rick Lang
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Denny Smith

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Re: BMPCC 4k and MetaBones Speed Booster EF

PostSat Nov 10, 2018 8:28 pm

The wider the focal,length of a lens, the harder it is to focus. You need to set focus peaking on and then see if the kens will focus in an object, lighting up the fringe area, then back off until only the part of the subject you want in focus is highlighted, not the entire area. Shoot a short clip, take it into Resokve and see how sharp it is. Do this will all four lenses and see if their is any difference in focus. Then you will know for sure, whether it is the lens, or Speed Booster camera combo.
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Denny Smith
SHA Productions

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