Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

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Janis Lionel

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Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 7:03 pm

Hi there,

I'm super psyched about the new PCC4K. Lets' hope BMD gets the Camera out on date this time without flaws like fixed pattern noise...

One question came up two: Windowed 120p was a big seller for me and I immediately pre-ordered one. Though, is the 120p 1080p RAW or ProRes? I just saw on the spec page that other resolutions than 4K are not RAW...I would really be a shame if 120p weren't RAW as well. There wouln't be any reason not to. Fingers crossed! I think with the Ursa it's possible to record 120p in RAW, right?

Thanks for your answer.

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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 7:36 pm

It's probably a cropped raw, like it is on the Ursa Minis.
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Robert Bowman

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 8:45 pm

Janis Lionel wrote:... I just saw on the spec page that other resolutions than 4K are not RAW...I would really be a shame if 120p weren't RAW as well...

What did you read?

This is what I read, FROM: blackmagicdesign Tech Spec for BMPCC4K
Recording Formats

Lossless CinemaDNG RAW, RAW 3:1 and RAW 4:1 with film dynamic range at 4096 x 2160, 3840 x 2160 and 1920 x 1080. <----- THIS!

Apple ProRes 4096 x 2160, 3840 x 2160 and 1920 x 1080 with either film, video and extended video dynamic range.

Hope this helps
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Denny Smith

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 10:10 pm

So is 3840x2160 a window crop of the sensor also for recording Raw. To be Raw it would need to be a crop window of the full sensor, no :?:
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 10:27 pm

As long as you're recording a format that matches the window resolution, it can be raw. In other words, you just can't scale the resolution and still record raw. So if you want to record UHD in raw, no problem. If you want the UHD crop but prefer to record HD, you'd be scaling, so it won't be raw any longer.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 1:37 am

That is what I thought, thanks 8-)
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 3:47 am

Janis, does this spec sheet of yours say the the sensor should do 4Kp120 RAW, like the thread title? That would really handy. As far as I know, only the expensive zcam e2 head is doing 4kp120 (non raw).
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John Paines

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 2:29 pm

Only BMD knows for sure, but it looks to this reader as if the technical description quoted above in the pdf, suggesting all those formats for raw, is missing punctuation in the original copy, which would distinguish "raw " formats from "film".

Other published specs, including the the data rates to the left in that same tech pdf, suggest that 4K DCI is the only raw format. Or maybe 4K and windowed HD. But all those other formats? Doesn't make sense. FWIW....
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Daniel Bănică

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 5:04 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:As long as you're recording a format that matches the window resolution, it can be raw. In other words, you just can't scale the resolution and still record raw. So if you want to record UHD in raw, no problem. If you want the UHD crop but prefer to record HD, you'd be scaling, so it won't be raw any longer.
So you're saying that if I want to set 1080p and record raw then I'm not able to do it? Just not make sense that raw is only available for 4K. Or am i wrong?
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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 5:14 pm

No, Raw in HD is available from the HD window mode. Full sensor is 4KDCI, it is UHD Raw that is a mystery, as no UHD window is mentioned, and to get UHD Raw you need a scaled down UHD sized window. That said, I think the GH5S (same sensor) has a window UHD mode, but not sure.
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Last edited by Denny Smith on Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 5:31 pm

Daniel Bănică wrote:So you're saying that if I want to set 1080p and record raw then I'm not able to do it? Just not make sense that raw is only available for 4K. Or am i wrong?


If you don't mind the crop, it should be possible to record HD raw. It really just a question of whether or not BMD supports it in the camera OS.

The maximum frame rate depends on other factors, but I don't think that BMD has officially disclosed those numbers yet. My *guess* is that it will, but that's just a guess.
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Daniel Bănică

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 5:38 pm

Denny Smith wrote:No, Raw in HD is available from the HD window mode. Full sensor is 4KDCI, it is UzhD Raw that is a mystery, as no UHD window is mentioned, and to get UHD Raw you need a scaled down UHD sized window. That said, I think the GH5S (same sensor) has a window UHD mode, but not sure.
Cheers
I see your point. But windowed mode means cropping. So in case I use m43 lens I will have to use what? 5mm lens to get a wide lens?

What if I want to record 4KDCI in RAW 4:1 to get a lower write speed and then to set the timeline to 1080p... does this require a better PC performance in regards to HD RAW?
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Chris Chiasson

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 6:43 pm

I think if RAW 120fps is available, it’s only done by the USB C to SSD. That’s my assumption.
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Janis Lionel

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 5:33 pm

Thanks for the clarification. Looks like I overread some things in the spec.

So 120p RAW! Great!!

@Chris: I don't think so. Should be around the same as 4K 30p since 4K is 4 times the resolution of 1080p and 120p 4 times the frame rate.
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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 6:02 pm

Yes, but 120fps is going to be HD, not 4K, as the camera is using the HD window to record 120fps off the sensor, not the entire sensor. So 120fps is going to be less resolution than 4K30fps.
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Janis Lionel

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 6:09 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Yes, but 120fps is going to be HD, not 4K, as the camera is using the HD window to record 120fps off the sensor, not the entire sensor. So 120fps is going to be less resolution than 4K30fps.
Cheers


Thats what I said ;) 4k 30p approx. same data rate as 1080p 120p.
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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 8:47 pm

Ah, got you, you were referring to data rates, not IQ resolution.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 2:09 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Janis, does this spec sheet of yours say the the sensor should do 4Kp120 RAW, like the thread title? That would really handy. As far as I know, only the expensive zcam e2 head is doing 4kp120 (non raw).
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Janis Lionel

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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 8:29 am

Wayne Steven wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Janis, does this spec sheet of yours say the the sensor should do 4Kp120 RAW, like the thread title? That would really handy. As far as I know, only the expensive zcam e2 head is doing 4kp120 (non raw).


I wasn't referring to 4k 120p, I menat PCC 4k: Full HD 120p RAW? Sorry if this was confusing. No it won't do that. I get 4K 120p RAW out of my FS700 with an O7Q, but only for 4.4 Seconds --> 15 seconds in 24p.
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Re: Pocket Cinem Cam 4K 120p - RAW possible?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 8:56 am

Yep. Confusing (contradictory terms). There is a thing going around claiming the sensor is some sensor that does 120fps 4k raw. However, I am interested in various parts it could be. What part number if that document for?

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