Pocket Cinema Camera 4k lens advice

I prefer to work with manual lenses rather than using still lenses with all the gadgets.

BUT!!!! This camera is designed to use still lenses.
Being MFT it can do both comfortably.

The finger wheel on the grip is very responsive and controls all the functions that are displayed in the menu on the screen.
This makes using active lenses very efficient.

This has made me question my choice of lenses with this particular camera.

Depending on how you are using the camera, the active lens is very attractive with this rig.

The camera I saw is phenomenal.

Thanks for the feed back Leon, I use thr PL MFT lenses with my Micro Cinema and thr BM Ursa Mini grip which gives me focus and Iris control of the lens, with the Push to a Focus and Push to set the Iris. For individual f/stop setting, the One Little Remote mounted on the camera works well. That said, the new Pocket 4K looks like it can do away with all the add ones, and gives similar or better control.
Cheers

When I had the opportunity to have the camera in my hands I have to admit that I was star struck and between controlling my drooling, trying to lift my chin off the ground and not wanting to overstay my welcome I froze and did not think clearly to do more tests.
That finger wheel kind of took me by surprise and now I wish I had done more tests with the active zoom lens that was on the camera.

Yes, we always think of something else afterwards. If that was thr Oly 12-40 Zoom they used for thr NAB demos, it does not have a zoom Servo, so no zoom control from thr camera, thr wheel will do iris and maybe rack focus, not sure about that one though.
Cheers

Thank you for sharing this valuable information and for fast response, Denny

Because I intend recording more cine-sytle videos with this camera the Veydra lenses seem to fit perfectly into the concept and, most appreciated, my budget.

Thanks again!

Hello John -

I checked the SLR Magic website (and also B&H) and they are only talking about ND filters that are up to 6 stops. Which is the 10 stops one that you are talking about?

If you do have a link to the product you are talking about, please do share that, it would be a great help.

Hi,
I just pre-ordered the Pocket Cinema Camera 4K, along with (on the vendor's recommendation) a Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm f/4 lens. I'm fairly new to this, so I'm not confident in my own ability to choose the best lens for my needs. I'm planning on shooting short documentaries, but also have a screenplay for a short scripted film in the works.

For the time being at least, my budget is not going to have room for more than one lens, so I want to make sure I'm getting something that will serve most purposes. Does that lens sound like it would be suitable, or would I be better off with something like the Panasonic Lumix G X Vario 12-35mm f/2.8? Or something else in that price range?

Thanks!

I think you'd be better off considering something a little longer, like the 12-35 Panny or the Olympus 12-40 F2.8 PRO. The 7-14 is a bit unwieldy and difficult to filter. (You'll want some ND's for sure)

SLR Magic as mentioned make a range of cine style MFT lenses including "toy" lenses and proper grown up big boy lenses and are also great value at either end of the scale. But they don't do zooms.

SLR Magic are also doing some very nice ND filters, including some new ones they just launched that go all the way to 10 stops in 1 stop increments of ND. A lot of others max out at 6 stops (1.8) or 7 stops (2.1)

JB

Dilson, i reviewed the SLR Magic ND 0.3-3.0 82mm filters several months ago and have purchased them from SLR Magic.




I thought they had been released, but I agree, I haven’t found them listed. They may be, but I don’t know where.

You could send a note to support@slrmagic.com and let them know you are interested in their new filters.


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Hello Rick -

Thanks for that speedy info. I surely will drop a line to the support team @ SLR Magic.

This filter you mentioned (SLR Magic ND 0.3-3.0 82mm filters) is it a variable ND with IR or you had the IR filter separate mounted onto the ND?

I am new to this stuff, so please bear with me.

Dilson, ten filters in one stop increments from ND 0.3 to ND 3.0. The filters are not IR Cut, but they attenuate infrared rays to the same degree as visible light. Think of a fairly flat line spectral response curve. As my video illustrated, they can be used with additional IR filtration such as the Image Enhancer Pro or a traditional IR Cut such as the Schneider B+W as shown in my video. I hope to be redoing these tests shortly.

The filters will be offered by B&H Photo but that hasn’t happened yet.

For the time being at least, my budget is not going to have room for more than one lens, so I want to make sure I'm getting something that will serve most purposes. Does that lens sound like it would be suitable, or would I be better off with something like the Panasonic Lumix G X Vario 12-35mm f/2.8? Or something else in that price range?

Thanks!

I have the 12-35 the 7-14 and several primes for ny BMPCC. I would recommend the 12-35 for the BMPCC4k. Firstly it has a 2x crop while the BMPCC is 2.88x (If I remember correctly). So it will be wider and the range is very usable. Secondly it has optical stabilisation, which you will appreciate as the camera does not have that. It is my goto all round lens. You can explore primes later when you got the hang of filming with the camera.

However, it also depends on you taste and interests. If you want mostly wide landscape, then you might want a 7-14mm lens. I however use it seldomly.

You should get a ND-vario (B&W is my choice) or set of ND filters too.

The SLR magic filters by themselves might be enough. IR might not be much of a problem with this sensor compared to the fairchild ones.

Savannah, I hope to let you know in the fall.


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Preben, you’re correct that the BMPCC has a horizontal crop of 2.88x. The horizontal crop of the Pocket 4K is 1.9x compared to 135 film. So a little wider than traditional mFT, 18.96mm vs 17.3mm.


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Rick. The 18.96 horizontal measurement is for DCI 4K 17:9, UHD/HD is going to be a little less, at 16:9, so closer to 17.8 (the AF100 16:9 crop size) or 18mm. Still wider than the smaller MFT 17.3mm sensor.
Cheers

Right, Denny.


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That's good news, I thought there was no crop. Very pleased.

Steve

Steve, do your self a favor, forget the expression “crop factor” it is a marketing term, not relevant to real photography or videography. Each csmera for st is unique, and many different gate sizes existed prior to digital photography, and not one ever said a 35mm Camera was a x0.25 crop factor of a 120 6x9 Camera.

A more correct term is to use “Angle of View” for lens on a given sensor size, as this is what is actually happening on lenses that can cover various sensor format sizes. What is a normal 45-degree AOV on one camera might be a wide angle on another. The sensor size / lens focal length combo control AOV.

Given the recent quality increases on digital sensor technology, sensor size is becoming less important.
Cheers

+1 with Denny on "crop factor."

This was a marketing term invented at the dawn of digital still photography to explain the difference in size between a digital still sensor and a frame of 135 still photography film. It has nothing to do with motion pictures.

135 still film runs horizontally through the gate at 8 perforations per frame. That is so-called "full frame."
35mm movie film is a completely different size -- it runs vertically through the gate at 4-perfs per frame.

This is why indie films shot with a "full frame" sensor like the 5D don't look quite like Hollywood movies. The sensor is way bigger than S35, which affects AOV, DOF, etc.

Another important note is that the focal length of a lens never changes, but the AOV changes depending on the size of the sensor. So when you read that Terry Gilliam favors a 15mm lens, you need to calculate the AOV on S35, then convert for the sensor of your camera to figure out which lens will look the same on your camera.

Hope that helps.

It's really not a right or wrong thing - it's just a way of expressing information. And any approach that conveys accurate info in a way that's best udnderstood by a given individual is "right".

The fact is many people have adopted a base line of FF, to picture the same focal length on MFT, S35, S16 etc. If you say 12mm to me, I can visualize the AOV on all of those formats because we shoot on all of them. As well as quickly calulating the differences when using a .71 or .58 speedbooster. I use FF as a reference because it's easier for me to make those calculations.

Understanding how a lens frames and/or compresses a shot is all that matters practically.

Things have changed a lot since everything was recorded on film and most contemporary digital shooters have no analogous experience with perferation and gates which is why "crop factor" is used commonly by B&H, for instance.

It's all good.

Jim, it is all relevant, based on your experience. While I shot 35mm stills, I never tried to compare my FF lenses with Cine or Video camera glass. They were different, and each did the job they were designed for.
If I needed a wide angle shot, I licked a WA lens for the format I was shooting in, Be it a 47mm Super Angelon on a large format camera (4x5/8x10) or a 12mm Super Speed on a S16 Camera.

My point is, learn which lenses give you the AoV you need for the camera you are using! No need to compare it to a 35mm still camera, you may or may not have experience with. If you want to compare two cameras like MFT vs S16 then do that, no need to bring in a third larger format that is not relevant.
A 35mm still Camera is not everyone’s standard.
Cheers

You honestly don't see the point in having a baseline from which to compare angle of views from, especially for people who might be relatively new to this and who are much more likely to work with different sensor sizes compared to a few years ago? One shoot might use cameras with everything from S16 sized cameras to oversized Alexa 65 sensors.

Denny, do your self a favor and actually read this thread . Crop factor is being used as a way of determining how much of the image circle is covered by the sensor, and not in order to compare the focal lengths of different lenses. Originally there was no published crop for the new camera and now we are told it is a 1.9 crop, as opposed to 2.88? on the BMPCC. So the image will not be as distorted at the edges as was first thought, but more than the original Pocket. This is encouraging as it means that we may not have to rush out and buy new glass. Although that Olympus you recommended does look rather good.

Steve

My point is, learn which lenses give you the AoV you need for the camera you are using! No need to compare it to a 35mm still camera, you may or may not have experience with. If you want to compare two cameras like MFT vs S16 then do that, no need to bring in a third larger format that is not relevant.
A 35mm still Camera is not everyone’s standard.

Exactly, just as your approachi isn't everyone's standard - which is why it's relative by definition.

I'm a communications consultant as well as a creative director and I'm regularly teaching companies how to best represent ideas internally and externally. Rigidity is not one of the things I preach.

There is no right or wrong way for people to grasp an issue. My simple point is that there are countless shooters who have used the FF/crop factor as a means to understand this issue and done so for years now. They don't need a new way to grasp something they already understand. They just come to it from a different point of reference than you do.

It's all good.

It is all good gentlemen, I was just trying to get different points of view out there, which looks like it was successful.

As for which lenses will fit the new Pocket camera, most of the better MFT lenses should work fine, as will APS-C and FF, which can be used with the MFT Speed Booster. S16 lenses will be limited to Arri B and PL Mount, with the camera in HD window mode, hopefully BM will gives us a 2.+K S16 window as well.
Cheers

I hope so too. A cinema camera by definition should have the option of generating a cinema format. DCI 4K is there, so let’s have (my favourite) DCI 2K.

Pretty please with very dark amber Canadian maple syrup on it!

Edit:
As Uli mentioned below, Denny likely wants a resolution that will encompass the full image circle of the widest Super 16 lenses he has. That would be more pixels than DCI 2K.


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I'd rather suggest a 3K version, or maybe 2.5 like the first camera from BM.
Bayer sensors never deliver the resolution the number of pixels suggests, the best algorithms go to about 80% of that if at all. So, for pristine 2K, I'd like a bit more out of the camera.

I have read that some Panasonic/Lumix lenses have CA that is compensated by the Panasonic cameras but will not be compensated by other cameras such as Olympus.. or Blackmagic. How much of this is true?

As an allrounder what about Panasonic 14-140? Although it is not a pro lens seems to get very good reviews on the web and the BMPCC4K double native ISO should compensate for it being a little dark

CA on Panasonic lenses, depends on the lens. The better ones, like the Panny Leica series have very well controlled CA, as does the 12-35 ver 2, improved over t Ver 1, from what I understand. You need to test the other lenses to see if it is an issue for you.

The Oly Pro lenses also have very well controlled CA and all the original Four Thrids lenses (from Olympus and Panasonic) had well controlled CA and many have wounderful IQ, as the FT cameras did not compensate CA or distortion. The creame of the crop is the Olympus 14-35mm, f/2.0 Zoom, which can be used in MFT Cameras with a FT/MFT adapter from Olympus or Panasonic, and this lens is real manual focus and parfocal, with a great cinematic look.
Cheers

I've had my p4k for two weeks now, and I'm super happy with it. The RAW images just look great
You can read more about how to choose a camera here http://fixthephoto.com/blog/tech-tips/t ... meras.html

Personally, I prefer to shoot on primes, and for about the same price as the Lumix you can get two SLR Magic cine lenses. I have the SLR Magic 10mm T2.1 and SLR Magic 25mm T0.95 (which in practice are approximately 20mm and 50mm, respectively.). They're in the $400-500 range each.

These lenses are full manual which means no autofocus or metadata ingest, but if you're fine with that then this is the best glass around at that price point. Additionally, being that they're cine lenses, they have geared focus rings for use with a follow focus system should you choose to get one down the line (which I would highly recommend.).

With that being said, the Lumix that you have as well as the Olympus Pro 12-40 are both great options for ~$1000.

Hey guys,



i'm bad at math and i don't really get the focal lenght of my lenses with a 0.7x focal reducer on the bmpcc 4k.

I have a samyang 12mm micro 4/3, if i get it right in this sensor it will be a 23 mm more or less

a Nikon 20mm 2.8, a 38-39 mm without focal reducer, with the focal reducer it would be a 24 mm, am i right ? And a Nikon 50mm 1.4 would be a 90something without reducer, a 61 mm with the reducer.

Am i doing my homework right?

if it's like that, wouldn't make much sense to buy a focal reducer, maybe i should just change the 50 for a 35 mm

Your math is fine, Gary.


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I am considering ordering the Voigtländer 10.5mm and 25mm when my two Pocket 4Ks finally ship.

Most of the sample footage I really loved seemed to use them. Anyone here got them?

Hi John,

I didn't take to the SLR Magic look, but the Olympus 17mm F1.2 looks as good as any cinema lens I can recall. Have you got that one to play with? There doesn't seem to be much motion video with it out there.

I saw the Olympus 17mm 1.8, which is just about as usable for a third the cost.

Not the same IQ, and it has much more distortion than the new Pro version. They are really two entirely different lenses. The 17mm f/1.8 needs a camera that gives auto lens correction, for best results.
Cheers

I don't think the Panasonic 7-14 takes screw on filters and has me asking if the BMPCC4K needs an IR cut like the original. I presume it does.
Steve

If you get the lens hood slide on adapter it will take screw on filters. I got mine from BH.

I am considering ordering the Voigtländer 10.5mm and 25mm when my two Pocket 4Ks finally ship.

Most of the sample footage I really loved seemed to use them. Anyone here got them?

I got the 17.5mm. It is a nice heavy lens. Soft as butter on the fastest apertures and no stabilization (obviously) which means you would need some rig.

The Sigma 18-35mm with metabones speedboster outperforms the Voigtlander by miles

The Sigma 18-35mm with metabones speedboster outperforms the Voigtlander by miles

Out performs it how?
Cheers

The Sigma 18-35mm with metabones speedboster outperforms the Voigtlander by miles

Out performs it how?
Cheers

Optically, light and sharpness.

Yes, figured the extra brightness from the Speed Booster combo with a f/1.4 lens was one “advantage”, and yes the lens is razor sharp, and for me, a little too sharp for Cinema type video work. Also, I do not like the “fussy” short focus throw. But this seems to be a popular lens for those wanting to shoot in very low light.

On my MFT mount cameras, I prefer the image quality from my Oly 14-35 FT f/2.0 lens, which has a much better manual focus, a useable f/2 that is still more than adequate for most low light situations, and with very acceptable sharpness, but not “razor” edge sharp, which is not pleasing to my eye.
Cheers.

Just got the Meike 25mm T2.2. Apparently they’re rebranded Veydras (or they were rebranded Meike). Anyway, really impressed with build quality and optics. Bargain for the price.

I have a Voigtländer 17.5mm and given the limitations of the BMPCC 4K's 8.3 Megapixel sensor at 4K, I like it's sharpness. It's 180 degree focus throw is a godsend in getting accurate focus that is spot on (a requirement on a F/0.95 lens) and useful in extremely close macro shots. It's declicked aperture is useful in moving from different lighting conditions.

I find it to be just as sharp if not sharper than my Canon 20-35mm 2.8L lens through a DEC Lensregain focal reducer. It's shorter and lighter than a Sigma 18-35 which also lacks IS. It also lacks the viginetting problems I have heard about with the Sigma through a focal reducer.

This shot from Berkeley is taken at least 12 miles from the "Emerald City of OZ" in late afternoon with lots of haze.

I like the Voigtländer's classic bokeh better than my "sterile" Rokinon 12mm F2.0 lens, a more modern lens design. I find that in spite of losing some stops in shallow DOF from the mft mount, the F/0.95 capability more than makes up for it to produce it's magic.

Voigtländer has a lot of experience in making quality lenses. Pictured is a 360mm lens on a Hasselblad. Both of them are from 1949.

Here is a cropped image of the "Emerald City of OZ" to show the detail of the focus from 12 miles.

Here is a shallow DOF example from a Zeiss Planar 50mm F/1.4 attached to an Aputure DEC Lensregain focal reducer on my BMPCC 4K. I think the optical quality of the Voigtländer 17.5mm is comparable, if not superior. Maybe others with a keener eye can give me some insight though.

I did notice that in sunlight, the focus peaking on the BMPCC 4K's unhooded 5" screen is hard to get accurate focus on a lens with a fast aperture. You really need a larger, brighter hooded monitor.

This photographer has a Sigma 18-35mm and doesn't like it's weight with a metabones 0.71 focal reducer for use on a gimbal (983g).

He uses a Voigtländer 25mm (410g) and 42.5mm (571g) for his gimbal.
The Voigtländer 17.5mm weighs 540g.


Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K (BMPCC4K) with Voigtlander NOKTON + Ronin-S

Here is a cropped image of the "Emerald City of OZ" to show the detail of the focus from 12 miles.

That's a pretty good camera set up!

I am wanting to know if the XEEN series of MFT Cinema lenses will work well with the BMPCC4K. I am aware focus will be MANUAL, however, I am not getting the BMPCC4K to VLOG or Wedding shoot or anything like that. I am shooting a "no budget" feature.