Blackmagic Forum

Hi,
I just pre-ordered the Pocket Cinema Camera 4K, along with (on the vendor's recommendation) a Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm f/4 lens. I'm fairly new to this, so I'm not confident in my own ability to choose the best lens for my needs. I'm planning on shooting short documentaries, but also have a screenplay for a short scripted film in the works.

For the time being at least, my budget is not going to have room for more than one lens, so I want to make sure I'm getting something that will serve most purposes. Does that lens sound like it would be suitable, or would I be better off with something like the Panasonic Lumix G X Vario 12-35mm f/2.8? Or something else in that price range?

Thanks!

If you can only afford one lens, the 12-35 is likely a much better choice, in my view. It ranges from wide angle through what's usually considered "normal" (replicating the FOV of the eyes) and a little beyond. The 7-14 goes from ultra-wide to wide, and is a stop slower. Unless you have a unique use for nothing but wide angles, this lens wouldn't seem to make a lot of sense.

Note that the 12-35 will be much wider on the BMPCC 4K than it is on the BMPCC, though it will also lack the "telephoto" aspect at the far end, thanks to the much larger m43 4K sensor.

Thanks, that's very helpful.

On the new Pocket 4K, 28mm is more the “Normal” AOV lens, with 35mm being a short tele.
So the 12-35 is a nice short range wide to a short tele lens. Another option, I would pick over the 7-14, is the Panny Leica 12-60 for an all rounder lens, you get a solid 12mm wide on one end and go down to a nice long tele at the other end.

The PL 12-60 zoom is a f/2.8-4, but at the wider focal lengths 12-35 is still f/2.8-3.4, which should work nicely with the higher ISOs on the new camera for available light shooting. Also this Zoom is the only MFT Zoom thstmis actually parfocal, holding focus at all focal lengths, and has a smooth, continuous iris, no stepping, so slight f/stop changes while zooming are not noticeable. The zoom was made with video in mind, giving it very fast and very quiet iris and focus motors, that will not record, even on the camera mics.

I have used this Zoom on both my Micro Cinema camera and my AF100 very successfully, recording a parade on the AF100, put the lens at f/4 in daylight shooting, and very little to no iris ramping.
Cheers

Denny Smith wrote:On the new Pocket 4K, 18-20mm is more the “Normal” AOV lens

Maybe in still photography, but "normal" in 1:85 cinema is typically considered about 32mm. So I've always believed, anyway. That would put the 4K Pocket at about 29mm.

Jprusinski wrote:... I'm fairly new to this, so ... my budget is not going to have room for more than one lens ...

Wild Card recommendation.
You should consider a MFT SLR Magic 26mm f1.4. (Toy lens?)

Im being serious. It's a relatively inexpensive lens; good on the budget.
Its sharp; it will give you very artistic visual fidelity when shooting 4K DCI.
But; it strength shall come into play for HD Window.
Which helps reduce the cost of film capture & storage.

Breaking it down:
A generic MFT sensor at 17.3 x 13 mm has an image diameter (Circle IC) of 21.64000924 mm

BMPCC 4K (HD Window) at 8.8896 x 5.0004 mm has an IC of 10.1994602 mm

The ratio between the two being : 2.121681817

The SLR Magic 26mm f1.4 when shooting within the HD window effectively becomes
SLR Magic (HD Window) 55.16mm at f1.4.

You will be in the sweet spot of the lens. Which is sharp.

Because its inexpensive; I can imagine that you could get it + plus a lens of your choice. But it is very artistic - Please read reviews.

If you would like to fully utilize the HD function of the BMPCC 4K, it may be a good idea to look into C mount lens. A 1" lens as an IC of 16mm & 1/2" as is 8mm. But a 2/3" C mount has an IC of 11mm.
So any lens greater than 2/3" will provide you full sensor coverage HD window.

Alternatively,
You should consider getting an MFT lens that will work well with 4K and in HD.
Or a lens that is wide for 4K to HD scaling, and long in HD window.

So the above SLR lens can function as a 26mm f1.4 fast (Artistic) lens for low light 4K scaling down to HD.
And a longer (narrow FOV) 55.16mm f1.4 in HD.

Good luck

PS. I use it on the BMPCC which has an IC of 14.31 mm for HD. At that crop I do not get any artistic artifacts that the full MFT gets. Its cheap and OK.


EDIT:
Updated a mistake in my earlier port; need to fix.

Another positive I failed to mention about this lens is that it is 85g.
Possible future drone lens, or a lightweight glidecam; like the iGlide II (max weight 1.36Kg).

Its cheap; lightweight; sharp and a fast lens.

John yes for Academy STD 35mm gate, 30-32mm would be, but it depends on the sensor format/gate size you are using, but you are right. I was thinking Micro Stuido format with 18mm. Normal AOV is considered 45-degrees, for both Video, Cinema and still photography, however specific focal length choices are different.

With the Pocket’s new wider MFT sensor (25mm was normal for GH3/4/5 17.3x13mm sensor) 28mm would be a closer normal FOV range on the new Pocket camera. On Academy format std 35mm gate size (21x12mm), 30-32mm is the Normal AOV focal length. The new Pocket camera is close, but not quite STD 35mm gate size at 18.96x10mm.
Cheers

Good morning

I have the Rokinon Cine Lenses MFT set for my BMCC, Will that same set but a good match on the Pocket 4K?

thanks

Robert, the f/stop of a lens does not change when you change the sensor crop. A f/2.8 kens remains f/2.8 on full sensor MFT or the center HD crop. What changes is the apparent depth of field, with the smaller sensor crop, so correcting the f/stop when shooting a smaller window to maintain a given DOF is required and is the x2 f/stop correction.

So the SLR Magic lens you use for yiur example, remains a f/1.4 lens regardless of full sensor or the HD window The amount of light hitting the sensor does not change, you are just using less of the sensor, and have less resolution. F/stops are a calculated reference number based on the lens iris opening size and the focal length of the lens. AOV of the lens to the sensor/film size is not part of the equation.
Cheers

I don't think the Panasonic 7-14 takes screw on filters and has me asking if the BMPCC4K needs an IR cut like the original. I presume it does.

The Oly 12-40mm f2.8 is highly regarded and was attached to at least one camera on the NAB show floor. It periodically goes on sale at B&H but at the moment is just at its normal price.

Steve

Denny Smith wrote:Robert, the f/stopmof a lens does not change when you change the sensor crop. A f/2.8 lens remains f/2.8 on full sensor MFT or the center HD crop.

Oh, my mistake. (Maybe).

I was just thinking about the volume of light a MFT lens illuminates over an MFT sensor.
An MFT lens - Accredited with f1.4; illuminates the full (MFT) sensor at a given brightness.
Then, if we window (to a smaller area) then only a fraction of the accredited light is illuminating the smaller size.
There is a loss of illumination, because we are not using a focal reducer to refocus the accredited light on to the smaller area.

If I was mistaken - Thanks for the correction

PS, A 50 is a 50 and a 50.
PSS, I cannot seem to modify my display name. Most people call me Bowman or Bowie.

EDIT:
Denny is correct. What can I say; I had a brain malfunction; a divide by zero.
I should have subtracted the light stops from the focal reduced value.
e.g. MFT f1.4 to 2/3" is + 2 stops = f0.7. This is the maximum for this IC for that lens.
Subtracting 2 stops returns me back to f1.4, since I am illuminating the IC with a fraction of the maximum light.

Sometime I'm just stupid.
Thanks Denny; I owe you a beer.

I can't wait to put my Voigtlander lenses on this thing... They produce a beautiful image, kind of expensive, but I won't be replacing them anytime soon.

Eventually Metabones or someone else will come out with an adapter to use EF lenses. Are their negatives to using EF lenses with an adapter versus getting MFT lenses?

Adam

Wouldn't a speedbooster XL work with all EF lenses?

Bowie, mot lenses are slightly brighter in center than edges when transmitting light, better ones somewhat less. While f/stops are a mathematical calculation, it gives an approximate relation ship in light transmission as a starting point. T/stops in the other hand are based on actual light transmission through the lens, and this is why they are used on Cinema lenses.

The lens transmitts the light evenly (more or less) across the sensor, so each pixel'is getting equal amount of light, if you shot a white evenly lit wall. Cropping the sensor does not reduce the light hitting the sensor at a given distance, but only reduces the number of pixels being used/lit. The lens light transmission does not change with different size sensors on a given lens. Light transmission however, can change between different lenses, depending on the optical design

A lens projects a given size image circle, which the sensor must fit into to get proper coverage. Using only the center portion of this projected image circle, can improve the overall sharpness of a lens, and reduce optical artifacts which as CA, as you are only using its center optical area or sweet spot, which is the advantage of using larger format lenses on smaller sensor cameras.

Sean van Berlo wrote:Wouldn't a speedbooster XL work with all EF lenses?

Not necessarily, depends on the lens’ projected image circle. Most FF Frame lenses should, but some EF lenses are not electronically compatible, see BM Eaf Supportrd Lens List, and some wide angel APS-C lenses may vignette with the larger 0.64 optical reduction. The Ultra with its 0.71 was optimized to work with larger MFT sensors and give a Normal cine S35 AOV. It will work optically with all of the EF lenses.
Cheers

Ugh, I meant the Ultra. These names are unintuitive. Apologies!

Duplicate post deleted
Cheers

Yes Sean, yes they are, I get the two mixed up also. So yes, you should be OK with EF lenses on the supported list and the Ultra SB. If you have the BMPCC 0.58 SB, do not sell it, you can still use it with the camera in the HD window mode, to reduce the AOV crop from the smaller sensor area.
Cheers

I can’t wait to try my MFT lenses, im just a bit afraid that they will be too sharp and produce a lot of moire.
BMD has not confirmed the presence of AA filter in new 4k cinema pocket camera.


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Jprusinski wrote:Hi,
I just pre-ordered the Pocket Cinema Camera 4K, along with (on the vendor's recommendation) a Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm f/4 lens. I'm fairly new to this, so I'm not confident in my own ability to choose the best lens for my needs. I'm planning on shooting short documentaries, but also have a screenplay for a short scripted film in the works.

For the time being at least, my budget is not going to have room for more than one lens, so I want to make sure I'm getting something that will serve most purposes. Does that lens sound like it would be suitable, or would I be better off with something like the Panasonic Lumix G X Vario 12-35mm f/2.8? Or something else in that price range?

Thanks!

I think you'd be better off considering something a little longer, like the 12-35 Panny or the Olympus 12-40 F2.8 PRO. The 7-14 is a bit unwieldy and difficult to filter. (You'll want some ND's for sure)

SLR Magic as mentioned make a range of cine style MFT lenses including "toy" lenses and proper grown up big boy lenses and are also great value at either end of the scale. But they don't do zooms.

SLR Magic are also doing some very nice ND filters, including some new ones they just launched that go all the way to 10 stops in 1 stop increments of ND. A lot of others max out at 6 stops (1.8) or 7 stops (2.1)

JB

Under the spec of bmd web, bmccpc4k have a 4/3 sensor on m4/3 mount, that mean you have larger fov than old pocket or bmcc, on s16 lens mean more crop, but on FF lens with adapter mean less crop, x1.89.


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Just wanted to jump back in to thank everyone for their thoughtful responses... I've learned a lot. After researching your recommendations, I'm now leaning toward the Panasonic Leica 12-60mm. I'm going to hold off on buying for the time being though... I'll have to wait a few months for the BMPCC 4K anyway, so hopefully something will go on sale between now and then!

Wise to wait until the camera is shipping as usually you will have a good number of off-the-shelf lenses from which to select.

Today your budget allows for one lens. Tomorrow you may be able to manage two lenses. And the day after tomorrow, three lenses. That’s just what will inevitably happen. So when you’re thinking of the lens purchase, think of it as your first lens, not your only lens. Thinking that way, you maybe should make a different choice than if it truly was only your first lens.

My first lens was a zoom that supported a reasonable wide angle though to a reasonable telephoto. But then I began assembling a set of prime lenses over time and I’m still adding to that set (fixed focal lengths).

Generally you’ll find more variety in the character of prime lenses than in zooms. But take your time. In another six months you’ll know what feels right! Believe me selecting lenses is a lot more difficult than selecting a camera. And that’s because the camera may serve you well for about five years at most before you want/need to add another camera. Select your lenses carefully and you may have them for a lifetime.



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rick.lang wrote:...Believe me selecting lenses is a lot more difficult than selecting a camera....

and becomes an obsession that eventually requires therapy...

Yes, yes it does. My lens collection exceeds the cost of my camers by several times, approaching the cost of a new car.
Cheers

Denny Smith wrote:Yes, yes it does. My lens collection exceeds the cost of my camers by several times, approaching the cost of a new car.
Cheers

But we can change a car more often than a good lens
Me too I'm obsessed by lenses, also vintage lenses, which i love it for their weird strangeness.
But when Light pass thought an old voightlander and you see in camera that magic...
A good lens could be like Diamond, it's for life

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Is the Lumix 42.5 / 1.7 a good match for a new Pocket 4K ?
Will optical stabilization be recognized by the camera ?
(there is no mechanical swich on the lens)

That’s like a portrait lens on the Pocket4K. I believe any lens distortions are likely corrected in a Panasonic camera so personally I would see if anyone has any information about the distortion. There are sites that review lenses showing uncorrected and in camera corrected distortion.

The BMD cameras don’t apply any lens corrections.

Optical stabilization is performed in the lens so that would work on a BMD camera if the camera provided power to the lens. I don’t believe it will, but let’s hear from our forum members who use Panasonic lenses on a BMD camera with active MFT Mount.


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Rick,

The more I think about this camera, the more of a conundrum it becomes. It certainly will not be the liberating game changer that the original Pocket was, and nothing makes that more obvious than the lens issue. Whilst the original Pocket could use off the shelf Panasonic and Olympus m43 lenses and produce stunning results, the 4K's lack of crop factor will render all of the distortion from these lenses visible in the frame and since the 4K will not correct this distortion in camera, one would assume that new lenses need to be sourced. And that gets expensive.

There are good m34 lenses from the likes of SLR Magic and others, but these are all pricey. I suppose the Sigma zoom with a speed booster might do as a kit lens (any distortion figures anywhere?), not a cheap combination though.

The company that is able to produce a low distortion m43 kit lens will clean up in this area. An interesting area that I will follow closely.

Steve

Jacek and Steve, not all MFT lenses have huge edge distortion. The Panny Leica 42.5 Noct is a stunning lens, much better than the lower cost f/1.7 Lumix, which is also fairly good. At 42.5, as Rick pointed out, you have an excellent portrait focal length, and the background and edges you want out of focus anyway.

Most of the Panny Leica Primes work well, as do the Olympus Pro Primes and Pro zooms. One of the most film like IQ MFT Zooms, is the original Olympus Pro FT 14-35 f/1.4 Zoom, which has excellent optical characteristics, and an almost Angenieux IQ to its images. This is one of two MFT zooms that is truly parfocal, the other being the new Panny Leica 13-60 Zoom.

Olympus Camera bodies do not correct for edge distortion or lens light fall off, only Panasonic MFT bodies have this. So the Oly lenses tend to be better optically.

Additionally, Voightlander and Veydra MFT Primes are also as good optically as Zeiss and Cooke cine primes. So, I really feel, the new MFT size sensor on the new PC4K is a real advantage, increasing the AOV of a given focal length over the S16 sensor, and allowing better use of lenses designed for the MFT format.

That said, you get what you pay for. If you like classic cine look of Cooke lenses, than the Voightlanders will come close, as will a few of the SLR Magic Hyperprimes, of which their 10mm lens outperforms the SLR 12mm, and has lower distortion, like the Zeiss S16 Super Speed 9.5mm outperformed the 12mm Super Speed. The Veydra Mini Primes perform similarly to Zeiss Master Primes and also have minimal distortion and well controlled breathing. They, like the SLR Hyperprimes, come with FF gears and Iris gears included.

Also you can maximize on using FF lenses like the Zeiss ZF/EF Primes, and get the full magical quality of the 28mm f/2.0 “Hollywood” lens, especially when paired with the 0.71 MFT Speed Booster. The 0,71 focal reducer will give you a similar AOV to the BMPCC 0.58 Speed Booster on the Pocket and Micro Cameras.
Cheers

Hi Denny,

I think that your post kind of proves my point really. There are indeed some fantastical m43s lenses out there, but they are usually accompanied by an equally fantastical price tag.

Looking at the reviews on line it would seem that the Olympus lenses get just as much in camera correction as the Panasonics, so plenty of distortion at the wider ends with out that help. I really think it's a case of wait and see when the camera appears.

Steve

rick.lang wrote:Optical stabilization is performed in the lens so that would work on a BMD camera if the camera provided power to the lens. I don’t believe it will, but let’s hear from our forum members who use Panasonic lenses on a BMD camera with active MFT Mount.

The BMPCC supports OS on Panny lenses with and without on/off switches, as well as AF and iris control. To save power, OS is only active when the camera is recording. Would expect the same support from the active mount of the 4K pocket.

If you're not exhibiting on 40' foot cinema screens (or even if you are), the worry over optical distortion on the edges of [uncorrected] m43 lenses may strike some as an over-cultivated anxiety. Just tell yourself it's a style, a lens with unintended character. Besides, you really don't want in-body auto correction, Panny style, because it also adds sharpening.

You are welcome Steve. I managed to get most of my Panny Leica lenses slightly used at a good price.
Look around good buys are out there. Any lens wider than around 20-25mm is going to have some barrel distortion, especially if you go,around shooting brick walls, or stick a wide lens up close to the subject.
But when used in normal shooting situations, most of the minor distortions are not visible. As for CA, the PL and Oly Pro lenses have less than the kit MFT lenses.
Cheers

What I want to know is if there might be a way to control the fly by wire focusing via a device plugged into the USB-c or bluetooth? Is there bluetooth?

Thank you John for starting this thread as I'm in the same situation as you! Near the front of the line of my BMPCC4K pre-order. Starting out fresh and also looking for my first all-around zoom lens. Based on this thread, the options I am seeing are:

Panasonic:
12-35mm 2.8
12-60mm 2.8-4

Olympus:
12-40mm 2.8
14-35mm 2.0

For those who have used these lenses, can you comment on:

1. is it parfocal(I believe some are as mentioned in this thread)
2. cinematic/video quality(sharpness, filmlike, videoish, etc)
3. image stabilization on the BMPCC4K
4. barrel distortion correction on the BMPCC4K
5. able to do a snap/zoom effect(for music videos)?
6. which would you choose and why?

Also, are there any other zoom options not mentioned in this thread? Thank you!

Thanks, John, for the information regarding the support for optical stabilization with the BMPCC. So presumably the Pocket4K will do the same as it also has an active MFT Mount.

Thanks, Denny, for providing a quick rundown of the better lenses for the Pocket4K. Although there was originally much gnashing of teeth about the 2.88x crop of the BMPCC, it’s true that many lenses looked great on that game changer because the sensor captured their sweet spot. That’s no longer going to happen with lenses designed to fit the image circle of MFT lenses. So usually you’re going to want to use better glass on the Pocket4K.

The resolution of the sensor (4K/HD) the resolving power of the lenses may also come into play. A weaker lens could give good results on the smaller sensor, but when you’re shooting 4K, you may find better results from lenses rated for 4K. Still some weaker lenses in terms of resolving power may still produce a very pleasing image when you’re not shooting line pairs in a chart.

Jay, only the Panasonic Leica 12-60 is parfocal, as is the larger sized Four Thirds Olympus 14-35 (f/2.0) lens, which requires a Panny MFT adapter. The Oly Pro Zooms come close, but are only parfocal in the mid part of the Zoom, not at the wide end, where they loose the focus. MFT lenses were designed (save for a few) as still camera lenses, and being parfocal is not a requirement here.

I have invested in some Cine Zooms, along with the PL 12-60, to get true parfocal Zoom results. That said, if you look at the MFT zooms as multi focal length lenses, than being parfocal is not a issue, as you simply refocus with each focal length change.
Cheers

I recommend sigma 17-50mm f2.8 with MB SB which will give you f1.7 definitely worth the money. Cinematic, sharp, fast

The Pany 12-35 2.8 is not parfocal, but because of the auto focus stays crisp in all but the fastest of zooms on the BMPCC. The IOS also works very well indeed. It has less distortion than the corresponding Olympus lens as well.

Both cost under $1000 here in Australia, but Denny's recommended (Larger) Four thirds Olympus is a staggering $3300! This is why the 4K camera is not the liberating experience that the original Pocket was. Still looking forward to it though.

Steve.

Yes Steve, since Olympus stopped making the 14-35, its used price has shot up. I got mine for around $1200 USD from a former AF100 shooter who was going to the GH4. However, it is a fantastic lens, and was my low light go to zoom lens on the AF100. There is one on eBay (from Japan) for $950 USD, but most good th excellent condones are $1200-800 on eBay.

The Panny Leica FT 14-50 is also a nice lens, but more of a variable focal length type lens witch is not even close to being parfocal. I got one of these for sale if you are interested, $100 USD plus shipping.
Cheers

Found a new one here Denny for$2700, unless it's a different lens?

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-Olympus ... SwknJXx8aS

Steve

No, that is it, looks like a nice copy too. Now you will need the Pannasonic FT to MFT adapter to go with it.
Cheers

I have the Sigma Art 35&85, both of which I intend to speedboost with the 0.71x (want to keep my options open for apsc glass). I'm just looking for an affordable wide angle, I will be barely using it but on the off chance I do need it I want one in my bag. What would you guys recommend? Getting a cheap Tokina 12-24 second hand and speedboost that? Or are there good cheap wide angle alternatives for the mft mount? Preferably something which covers 18mm super35 equivalent.

A 14mm lens on the Pocket4K is going to give you a similar field of view as a 18mm lens on Super 35. The SLR Magic 10mm for MFT will give you a significantly wider field.


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I agree with Rick, either the SLR Magic 10mm, an excellent lens, or the new Tokina Cine 11-16, which comes as a EF/NikF or MFT Mount in addition to PL. I have the PL version, very nice WA lens. You will be dissatisfied with a cheap WA, and so would not use it anyway. Better to buy one you can and will actually use, and spend a little more doing so.
Cheers

For a wide zoom, consider the pan-leica 8-18mm? Some good reviews on this lens. I haven't used it myself, but am seriously considering it for shooting U/W, diving. (Will likely have to build my own custom U/W housing, unless I can convince maybe Ikelite to make a housing, but that is another topic.)

Yes, the PL 8-28 would be excellent, and you get the auto focus function also. But, I have read some reviews of this lens that indicate some copies are a little less sharp wide open. But that may be down tomoperator error, as UWA are had to get critical focus on.
Cheers

Hello all,

I'm a newbie on this forum and an amateur.

I have a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema 4K camera on my personal wish list, but I'm not sure what's best choice of lenses within an budget up to 4,000 Euro for camera and lenses. I'd like to go for two or three photographic prime lenses or cine primes with MFT mount without adapter, something like 18 and 40mm (or 12, 25, 50mm), max. aperture 1:2.8 or lower.

Any ideas, proposals, experience?

I use both the Pannasonic Leica Primes, 15, 25, and 45mm are good prices, while,the 12mm and excellent 42.5 tend to be pricey, but are outstanding lenses.

For Cine type rugged shooting, the Veydra Mini Primes (MFT) mount) are hard to beat, they average $500-600 for used ones, and $800, 12mm and 19mm are $1200 for new. Available in 12, 16, 19, 25: 35, 50mm and up to 85mm. The Veydra lenses are all manual, with follow focus gears, constant front filter ring size (77/80mm), to unify counting filters or a matte box. While a little pricey sounding, they are bargain lenses, with the same qulity of Cine lenses costing $3-6K. They are based on the Zeiss Ultra Prime lens deign. The Veydra’s are my go to lens for most serious shooting.
Cheers