Which ND filter for BMCC

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wro

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Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSat Apr 20, 2013 7:39 am

I found 2 interesting article about this:
http://nofilmschool.com/2013/02/blackmagic-cinema-camera-red-epic-arri-alexa-raw-test-part-1
and
http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2013/02/the-black-magic-cinema-camera

“Bring in the IR NDs”
We also noticed that you will need to use IR NDs with this camera above a ND 1.2. After the ND 1.2, the image got very brown in the blacks and felt very muddy. To keep this shallow DOF outside, you will need Tiffen IR NDs so that you can minimize this problem. Unfortunately, you cannot get rid of it with color correction. You can make it less, but it is baked in there.


For first i would buy 1 ND (i think with IR - for example - http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.php?t=product/tiffen_w44irnd12). It is good choice?
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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSat Apr 20, 2013 3:06 pm

I picked up a Schneider NDIR 1.5 Platinum just recently. I've been on film so long I never had a need for the IR series of NDs; but with cameras which are rated between 320~800 (red alexa ect...) it's nice to have the 5 stop cut of a 1.5.
I would say Tiffen, Schneider, and Formatt will all be ok for most applications most of the time as they're top of their games. I went Schneider simply because it was on sale and slightly cheaper than a Tiffen would've been (though all my other filters are Tiffen).
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSat Apr 20, 2013 3:34 pm

wro wrote:I found 2 interesting article about this:
http://nofilmschool.com/2013/02/blackmagic-cinema-camera-red-epic-arri-alexa-raw-test-part-1
and
http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2013/02/the-black-magic-cinema-camera

“Bring in the IR NDs”
We also noticed that you will need to use IR NDs with this camera above a ND 1.2. After the ND 1.2, the image got very brown in the blacks and felt very muddy. To keep this shallow DOF outside, you will need Tiffen IR NDs so that you can minimize this problem. Unfortunately, you cannot get rid of it with color correction. You can make it less, but it is baked in there.


For first i would buy 1 ND (i think with IR - for example - http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.php?t=product/tiffen_w44irnd12). It is good choice?


"IR pollution" is a well-known, sensor-specific issue which affects most digital video cameras to a varying degree. IR cut filters are recommended to prevent “IR pollution”, especially when using ND filters. I keep a Hoya IR/UV cut filter on my BMPC-4K most of the time. Other filters have been reported effective, including combination ND & IR cut filters, too.
Last edited by Peter J. DeCrescenzo on Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wro

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSat Apr 20, 2013 6:09 pm

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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSat Apr 20, 2013 6:18 pm

wro wrote:... What does it mean - "White Water" ??


"Water white" is a term Tiffen uses to describe their very clear, very pure glass. It's often mis-printed as "white water".
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSat Apr 20, 2013 6:22 pm

I pretty much only use a Water White 1.2 an 1.8 on the camera, I need to get a .9, 1.5, and 2.1
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PaulDelVecchio

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSat Apr 20, 2013 6:27 pm

I only use Tiffen Water White NDs. I have a set of .3 - 1.2 and then the Water White IRNDs from 1.5-2.1. It seems with Tiffen Water Whites, you only really need IRs above 1.2. That's when it starts to get real ugly.
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Felix Steinhardt

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSat Apr 20, 2013 6:36 pm

You need an IR filter all the time. Even without ND. A simple CTB gel on a tungsten light is enough to bring in IR contamination on the BMCC.

I have Hoya NDs in 2,4,8 and a Hoya IR&ND that´s always screwed on.
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Thomas Schumacher

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSun Apr 21, 2013 6:40 am

Although I don't have a calibrated monitor at hand I did a quick test with a Tiffen IR and Genustech Eclipse FaderND in ProRes:



I also have a Formatt proStop IR 4x4"-ND for the Mattebox when I use the Sigma 8mm at the wide end (which works with the cheapo owldolly matte box II), which gives very good results.
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Adriano Castaldini

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSun Apr 21, 2013 11:40 am

Hi guys,
which is the advisable filters order?
Lens > IR > ND ?
Let's say we have 4 circular filters:
1. Tiffen Digital HT Ultra Clear (sort of protector)
2. Tiffen Digital HT Circular Pol
3. Tiffen Digital HT Haze 86 (UV filter)
4. Tiffen Digital HT ND 0.6
Which could be the order of these filters?
And with these filters do you think I really need some IR filter?
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSun Apr 21, 2013 5:25 pm

adrjork wrote:... Which could be the order of these filters?
And with these filters do you think I really need some IR filter?


Some people recommend having the IR cut filter first, with any other filters (and the lens) "behind" the IR cut filter. Thought being that you're eliminating the unwanted IR "pollution" (magenta cast) before further filtration, and to prevent IR from bouncing back into filters placed before it (which they feel could cause IR reflections, optical artifacts, etc.)

Others are fine with positioning the IR cut filter either in the middle of the filter stack, or last (closest to the lens), and report no problems.

The IR cut filter I own is a screw-on 77mm Hoya IR/UV cut filter, so I typically place it first before other filters such as my screw-on 77mm Tiffen ND filters. However, I sometimes position polarizer and/or graduated ND filters in my matte box before (in front of) the Hoya filter. I haven't noticed problems with this, but I confess I want to give another closer look to see if I'm causing any issues by doing so.

You may wish to do some careful tests yourself and look at the results on a full 1080p monitor to determine if you see a benefit one way or the other.

In general it's a good idea to use as few filters as possible to minimize optical flares, ghosting, reflections, unwanted diffusion, etc.

Of the filters you mention, unless you're shooting a scene containing a lot of undesirable fog or haze, the Tiffen Digital HT Haze 86 (UV filter) could be completely unnecessary, or it might cause the issues mentioned above in your footage. Likewise, unless you're shooting in an environment with flying sand or other debris, the Tiffen Digital HT Ultra Clear filter is likely to cause unwanted issues like those mentioned above, with little benefit.

When in doubt, shoot careful tests in the sort of conditions you anticipate, and view the original footage on as accurate a monitor as you have available.

Cheers.
Last edited by Peter J. DeCrescenzo on Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Adriano Castaldini

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSun Apr 21, 2013 6:19 pm

Thanks Mr. DeCrescenzo,

do you suggest to use separate filters (for IR/ND/UV), or do you think it's better to use a combo IRND or IRUV filter?
There is Tiffen 77mm IR/ND0.6 filter,
or the B+W 77mm UV/IR Cut (486M) Slim MRC filter,
or the Hoya 77mm UV/IR Cut Filter.

1. Is it preferable to have UV+IR or ND+IR?
2. Is it preferable having or not UV filter in the stack?
3. Is it preferable Tiffen brand? (after )

Thanks for your advices!
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSun Apr 21, 2013 7:12 pm

The reason I bought a separate IR cut filter (the Hoya IR/UV cut filter) is because it was less-expensive than buying an IR cut version of every other filter, and because IR cut filtration is sensor-specific: A particular formula IR cut filter may perform well with some sensors, but not as well with others.

For example, the Hoya IR/UV cut filter works well with the sensor in the BMCC & new BMPCC (pocket) cams. I've seen reports of other IR cut filters working well with the BMCC/BMPCC sensor, too, but don't know the brands, regrets.

Combination filters help minimize flares, etc. that can be caused by having an "additional" separate filter (in this case an IR cut filter).

As for UV filters: As I mentioned in my previous post, UV is sometimes an issue, such as in wide landscape shots containing natural sunlit haze for example. Otherwise a UV filter may have no benefit, and if a separate filter, may cause unwanted flares, etc.

It's a balancing act between using as few filters together as possible, cost, convenience, image quality, and so forth. There isn't one right answer.
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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSun Apr 21, 2013 7:22 pm

adrjork wrote:Thanks Mr. DeCrescenzo,

do you suggest to use separate filters (for IR/ND/UV), or do you think it's better to use a combo IRND or IRUV filter?
There is Tiffen 77mm IR/ND0.6 filter,
or the B+W 77mm UV/IR Cut (486M) Slim MRC filter,
or the Hoya 77mm UV/IR Cut Filter.

1. Is it preferable to have UV+IR or ND+IR?
2. Is it preferable having or not UV filter in the stack?
3. Is it preferable Tiffen brand? (after )

Thanks for your advices!


Hopefully, Peter will correct anything I say if he disagrees. I think he already said the UV is usually unnecessary and any filter can introduce problems so don't use it unless needed. IRND in one filter is preferable as Tiffen offers in most densities if you are willing to purchase those filters. Tiffen recommends IRND for any density which runs contrary to generally accepted requirements but you decide. Tiffen White Water IRND is preferable on the sensor used by the BMCC as demonstrated in the AbelCiné video. Formatt was also very good and if memory serves me, Schneider was good. As Peter mentioned, the correct brand of filter depends on the sensor so perhaps on the BMPC4K, it may not be the best sensor. We suspect the sensor on the BMPCC is similar enough to the BMCC sensor that Tiffen would be the best choice there as well. Of course we need to wait and see.
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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSun Apr 21, 2013 9:47 pm

In my own opinion, I prefer combo filters-- 85ND or NDIR for my corrections so I have other slots in my MB for other filters. Why use 2 pieces of glass when I can use one.
Granted, this may mean I need to have a few filters on hand, but they are relatively affordable, and if you're an owner/op you can carry a set just for the camera you own and rent from rental houses when/if you may need another.
Myself, I went Schneider ND1.5 for my one "go to" filter first, before filling out the set, for most digital cameras and thusly I haven't seen any issues on a swath of digital cameras-- but again I'm not peeping or doing side-by-sides. Sufficient to say it's worked for me on the RedMX, Epic, Alexa, 60D and my little GH2.
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Adriano Castaldini

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSun Apr 21, 2013 10:18 pm

Great advices! Thank you all!

Just a doubt: IR filter kept on lens at all tilmes? Or only when using also the ND?
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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 6:26 am

heres what ive learned so far

either get a tiffen t1 White water(WW) IR cut filter then just use that with WW ND filters
or
Get a Tiffen IRND pro kit of 7 filters. (.3 up to 2.1) Around 500 bucks.
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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 2:51 pm

I only find need to use IR when I am shooting through ND which acts to change the ratio of IR to visible light hitting the sensor, hence the problems which arise.
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sean mclennan

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 3:03 pm

dustinuy wrote:heres what ive learned so far

either get a tiffen t1 White water(WW) IR cut filter then just use that with WW ND filters
or
Get a Tiffen IRND pro kit of 7 filters. (.3 up to 2.1) Around 500 bucks.


Dustin, thanks for posting that. I didn't even know that kit was available! 4 of my lenses are 77mm, so that's a winner right there :)
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Adriano Castaldini

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 3:52 pm

So, if I correctly understand, the main filters are IR+NDs, while the other filters (UV, Cir-Pol) are avoidable. Isn't it?
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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 4:30 pm

Pola is nice to have, kinda of typical to keep around for when you are dealing with reflections/sky/clouds.
Also I'd highly recommend ND grads.
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Adriano Castaldini

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 4:36 pm

(Thanks Mr. Sierkowski!)

And when does ND-grads is useful?

Thx
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sean mclennan

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 6:11 pm

outdoors during daytime or upside down during nighttime :ugeek:
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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 6:32 pm

sean mclennan wrote:outdoors during daytime or upside down during nighttime :ugeek:


I thought you were about to say "upside down for those Down Under."

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 7:33 pm

Yep; NDs, as well as Attenuators can be very helpful to keep skys from blowing out. I've even throw them in the lens side-ways if I was, say, shooting around the side of a building with a long bright area on one side of the frame.
Also on some Matteboxes you can slide them in and out during the shot--- for example starting with a strong effect on the sky and as you pan down your AC slowly rolls the ND up and out of the way so as not to hit, say, an actor who you pan to.
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adamroberts

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 7:39 pm

sean mclennan wrote:
dustinuy wrote:heres what ive learned so far

either get a tiffen t1 White water(WW) IR cut filter then just use that with WW ND filters
or
Get a Tiffen IRND pro kit of 7 filters. (.3 up to 2.1) Around 500 bucks.


Dustin, thanks for posting that. I didn't even know that kit was available! 4 of my lenses are 77mm, so that's a winner right there :)


And add a cheap step-up ring for the other lenses. :-)
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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 8:29 pm

I know a lot of users are opposed to Variable ND filters, but when I was at NAB I visited the Tiffen booth and they said that they would be releasing a Variable IRND filter this spring or summer. After talking with them I decided to wait for its release and try it out. Once I get it and test it out I will try to update this post.
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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 8:49 pm

VND filters are interesting; and were I starting a new kit, I may look into them.
Consequently, Rosco had an interesteing idea with VND; where it's a window-gel and a pola filter on the camera, so you can "set" the ND level on a window behind talent let's say, to coupe with variable light. Of course, once you start to move the camera it becomes problematic in that instance.
(same with VNDs I would assume on a camera too with skies outside? Or perhaps not, but I've never seen pans with them.)
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostTue Apr 23, 2013 2:54 am

Vari-ND filters have their uses, and a few of them are good quality, such as the Heliopan & Genus Eclipse.
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adamroberts

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostWed Apr 24, 2013 10:11 pm

See this post for examples of the IR contamination with the Genustech ND Fader Filter:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7390&p=47657#p47657

You can see how much is cut out when the Hoya UV & IR Cut filter is added.
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Paul Abrahams

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostSun Apr 28, 2013 2:08 am

I've ordered some Tiffen ND's and the T1 for IR filtering. Today I threw on my old cheap LCW VND and through ultrascopes I can't see any colour spikes like in the filter test I watched from Abelcine.

Not sure sure how accurate this is on my imac

I'm using daylight... interesting
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Sam Joos

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostTue May 14, 2013 6:21 am

Ive been reading here and other forums that IR is not necessary for .9 and lower, but looking at the video by Ryan E Walters it seems its needed at all levels of ND. So is it that its easily "fixed" in post .9 and lower?
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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostTue May 14, 2013 10:26 am

The Abelcine tests showed the BMCC has varying degrees of IR pollution throughout.
Probably easily fixed in post by colorists that know what they are doing.

My T1-IR filter cuts about a 1/3 of light before any ND applied
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rick.lang

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostTue May 14, 2013 9:22 pm

Sam Joos wrote:Ive been reading here and other forums that IR is not necessary for .9 and lower, but looking at the video by Ryan E Walters it seems its needed at all levels of ND. So is it that its easily "fixed" in post .9 and lower?


Sam, Tiffen actually recommends their set of IRND filters that include IR at all levels of ND beginning with ND 0.3. Since the BMCC sensor seems quite susceptible to IR pollution, I plan on following their advice. Others still say, it's not needed at low ND.

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostTue May 14, 2013 10:11 pm

I've read mixed opinions about using a tiffen hot mirror IRND, but I scored a 1.2 one for $50 and plan to test it's effectiveness once I get home.
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Chris Hocking

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostThu May 16, 2013 2:29 pm

We shot with a Hoya Variable ND this week. Such an incredibly handy tool to have for run-and-gun.

I haven't noticed any issues with it yet. Pictures look great.
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Adriano Castaldini

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostThu May 16, 2013 2:46 pm

Hoya! I love Hoya, and I'm curious about color results, because a test in Vimeo said "Tiffen WW only for BMCC" (more or less). Your results will be precious.
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Chris Hocking

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostThu May 16, 2013 8:22 pm

What sort of tests would you like me to do?
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Adriano Castaldini

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostThu May 16, 2013 9:53 pm

Oh... nothing special: if you see that Hoya lenses work fine on BMCC sensor it simply means that Tiffen WW IRND lenses are not the unique solution (and from here in Italy Hoya costs less then Tiffen).
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muratcangokce

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostThu May 16, 2013 10:43 pm

I was using citiwide vnd which is amazing when think its price..
there was no problem at all.

but i was not able to use polarizer with it because of the nature of vnd I bought tiffen indie nd set without IR. I am really curious about results because I am using nd filters too much.
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Sam Joos

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 12:05 am

Anyone use hotmirror filters opposed to the straight infrared filters? I'm looking at the cavision 4x4 hotmirror and wondered if it will suffice for IR pollution.
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Sam Joos

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Re: Which ND filter for BMCC

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 12:17 am

also here is something interesting directly from Tiffen T1 press release, check out the note at the end:
"...The T1 IR filter can be stacked with Neutral Densities up to 0.9; however, for best results it is recommended to use the Tiffen Full Spectrum IRND’s when heavier densities are required."

http://www.tiffen.com/press_release_T1IR_filter.html

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